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I would really like to see some of the xenos races get updates, especially Tau and Tyranids. The more up to date the codexes, the more squishy aliens for our marines to shoot at. Look, I love my Deathwatch marines, just look at my avatar. But I don't think they deserve their own codex before any of the 3rd and 4th edition codexes get updated.

I think the solution is to use WD updates to add characters that can give SMs special abilities or update their codexes. Maybe a standard faq could be released that brought all the abilities and costs of marine gear in line with each other.

For the sake of bolter lovers everywhere, please give us some fresh aliens to shoot.

And y'know there've been 3 non-white chapters that I'm aware of.

Dark Angels (native Americans) - retconned into white monks.
Salamanders (Africans) - retconned into inhuman mutants
And White Scars.

So yeah Marines could do with a bit more color.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:And y'know there've been 3 non-white chapters that I'm aware of.

Dark Angels (native Americans) - retconned into white monks.
Salamanders (Africans) - retconned into inhuman mutants
And White Scars.

So yeah Marines could do with a bit more color.

Paint the marines whatever color you want and print the codexes in gray scale.

EDIT: This came off a lot harsher than I meant it to. I know I've painted my models different races.

Why does colour matter at all? Marines could be blue under those helmets and it wouldn't make any difference.

Honestly, why should the colour of their skin matter in a game where the so-called 'good guys' consider genocide the appropriate responce to anything that isn't them.

Like it or not, GW is a British company, the vast majority of players are also of European descent, therefore the majority of armies appear to be of European descent. It's simple marketing, I gather you are East Asian, or of East Asian descent. If GW had a strong East Asian playerbase than there would be more chapters reflecting the Asian players. I live in Houston, Texas, an area where the majority of the human race is not white, (probably around 40 percent). The vast, the VAST majority of players at the flgs are white, I've only seen one non white person at the store, and he was hispanic, no he didn't want a Latino chapter, even though they are the majority of the population. Bottom line, GW is based on Anglo-Celtic Civilization, same as the countries it is most popular in (America, UK, Oz, NZ, Canada). Your argument for marinaversity is flawed from the start, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play the game Shogun: Total War(a great game) with the contemporary Holy Roman Empire landing, simply because the Japanese culture was getting old.

rickross wrote:Like it or not, GW is a British company, the vast majority of players are also of European descent, therefore the majority of armies appear to be of European descent. It's simple marketing, I gather you are East Asian, or of East Asian descent. If GW had a strong East Asian playerbase than there would be more chapters reflecting the Asian players. I live in Houston, Texas, an area where the majority of the human race is not white, (probably around 40 percent). The vast, the VAST majority of players at the flgs are white, I've only seen one non white person at the store, and he was hispanic, no he didn't want a Latino chapter, even though they are the majority of the population. Bottom line, GW is based on Anglo-Celtic Civilization, same as the countries it is most popular in (America, UK, Oz, NZ, Canada). Your argument for marinaversity is flawed from the start, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play the game Shogun: Total War(a great game) with the contemporary Holy Roman Empire landing, simply because the Japanese culture was getting old.

That argument makes zero sense. For one, I'm a white guy. Secondly, there are more races on Earth than just white guys, which is something that should be reflected in 40k, since it deals with the whole god damn milky way. Just because GW is based in England doesn't mean only white people should be in (or play, as you seem to infer) 40k. Shogun: Total War is a game based ONLY on Japan, so of course it will have japanese people. But, since 40k is based on the whole world + galaxy, it'd be racist NOT to include any sort of other races. Just because you can't relate to other people of different races doesn't mean other people can't. Now please, gtfo, racist.

1: Nids
2: Crons
3: Orks
4: some sort of actual traitor guard codex
5: Squats ( hey, an ork can dream right?)
6: Grot rebellion
7: Anything else that has nothing to do with marines
8: Anything else that has nothing to do with marines
9: Anything else that has nothing to do with marines
10: Anything else that has nothing to do with marines

Kilroy, stop being so confrontational, I think you would have an EXTREMELY difficult time arguing that the MAJORITY, not an absolute! isn't white. I NEVER said 40k marine chapters should only represent Europe, I said that a chapter being based on a non-european culture shouldn't be their primary qualification to be interesting. I deserve you're respect, as I had previously given you mine freely. My arguments are valid.

rickross wrote:Like it or not, GW is a British company, the vast majority of players are also of European descent, therefore the majority of armies appear to be of European descent. It's simple marketing, I gather you are East Asian, or of East Asian descent. If GW had a strong East Asian playerbase than there would be more chapters reflecting the Asian players. I live in Houston, Texas, an area where the majority of the human race is not white, (probably around 40 percent). The vast, the VAST majority of players at the flgs are white, I've only seen one non white person at the store, and he was hispanic, no he didn't want a Latino chapter, even though they are the majority of the population. Bottom line, GW is based on Anglo-Celtic Civilization, same as the countries it is most popular in (America, UK, Oz, NZ, Canada). Your argument for marinaversity is flawed from the start, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play the game Shogun: Total War(a great game) with the contemporary Holy Roman Empire landing, simply because the Japanese culture was getting old.

Really? Wow, that's totally different from my experiences.

I live up in Denver, Colorado, which is 70% white, and we've still got quite a few black and hispanic players (In fact, most of the younger regulars are non-white).

I'm guessing the majority of wargamers are white, but I doubt that's the reason Games Workshop makes most of their minis European-based. Blizzard still has the majority of the Terrans in Starcraft 2 based on Southerners from the United States, even though South Korea provides an insane amount of Starcraft players.

Also, keep in mind that most of the factions are based on European groups, including most of the Imperial Guard factions (The only exceptions are Catachans, Rough Riders, and maybe Tallarn), so it's not just ethnic, it's also regional preference. I'd say it's just because GW was most familiar with that sort of culture when it started out; their attempt at USA Vietnamese troops was almost completely based on movies instead of real life.

GW is primarily interested in profit, and white scars based on Mongolian culture have been around for a long, long time. Yet they have never been as popular as the Greco-Roman Ultramarines, or the Norse Space Wolves. Ultra's or Wolves just interested people more. To many GW customers, these periods represent their pasts, or culture they grew up well informed about (try the iconic "viking helmet") This generation has more exposure to the Orient through cartoons, samurai etc (I would really like a Japan-inspired chapter) but the Imperium is based on a gothic-EUROPEAN catholic suppresion type culture. Worlds are brought to the Imperial banner under the understanding they will adhere to the Imperium's cultural norms. Promoting armies of different races, simply because we need more "color" is just as hateful as stating that no one wants color in 40k, just look at, this kind of thing doesn't mesh with the customers or the fluff. If you want Asiatic-inspired go Tau, if you want nuns with guns, go sisters, if you want archetypal Roman Stoics, go Ultra's. There's options for everyone, take them or leave them, modeling is up to you, if you want a variety of skin colors, it's a GALAXY! Paint your warriors in all manners of skin color/ national icons etc. Its up to you!

rickross wrote:Kilroy, stop being so confrontational, I think you would have an EXTREMELY difficult time arguing that the MAJORITY, not an absolute! isn't white.

No, I'm arguing that it doesn't matter WHAT color the people making the game or gamers are. Just because the majority is doesn't mean that it will sell any better if they're the same color. That's just pure racism, plain and simple. As this thread should have probably taught you by now, some people actually enjoy diversity

rickross wrote:I NEVER said 40k marine chapters should only represent Europe, I said that a chapter being based on a non-european culture shouldn't be their primary qualification to be interesting.

And again, as I pointed out before, not only WASN'T it the primary qualification for the OP, just one of many, but this argument you have constantly repeated about it being unethical to like an army based off of a different race than the mainstream is completely nonsensical and EXTREMELY racist. How can you sit there and say "You shouldn't like an army if it isn't white"? That's absolutely ludicrous.

rickross wrote: I deserve you're respect, as I had previously given you mine freely. My arguments are valid.

Flawed racism is never a valid argument. That being said, I do feel sorry for your soul, and hope that you can work past those issues.

rickross wrote:GW is primarily interested in profit, and white scars based on Mongolian culture have been around for a long, long time. Yet they have never been as popular as the Greco-Roman Ultramarines, or the Norse Space Wolves. Ultra's or Wolves just interested people more. To many GW customers, these periods represent their pasts, or culture they grew up well informed about (try the iconic "viking helmet") This generation has more exposure to the Orient through cartoons, samurai etc (I would really like a Japan-inspired chapter) but the Imperium is based on a gothic-EUROPEAN catholic suppresion type culture. Worlds are brought to the Imperial banner under the understanding they will adhere to the Imperium's cultural norms. Promoting armies of different races, simply because we need more "color" is just as hateful as stating that no one wants color in 40k, just look at, this kind of thing doesn't mesh with the customers or the fluff. If you want Asiatic-inspired go Tau, if you want nuns with guns, go sisters, if you want archetypal Roman Stoics, go Ultra's. There's options for everyone, take them or leave them, modeling is up to you, if you want a variety of skin colors, it's a GALAXY! Paint your warriors in all manners of skin color/ national icons etc. Its up to you!

If they're going to make a Japanese-based anything, I'd like an Imperial Guard regiment based on either side of the Pacific in World War 2; there's a lot of potential for a Guard regiment with more connection to the navy there. I'm actually surprised GW hasn't made one yet.

But a samurai chapter could work. I'd like to see them play up the fuedal aspect, since only Ultramar has that in the fluff, and Ultramar isn't the sort of GRIMDARK place you think of when you hear "feudal lords ruling over peasants."

I'd honestly love a marine chapter based on one of the many, many, MANY Sub-Saharan tribes. They have a really distinctive visual style that would be a diversion from the norm.

Agreed, I'd love to see non-white regiments/chapters. All I'm saying is that they shouldn't be added simply based on the fact that they AREN'T white. If an army based on European culture has a better concept as a whole/ is more fleshed out, id rather see that play out, but if they both have good concepts/ sketches, rule concepts, I'd be fine with either

We're all racist on the inside. http://www.psychologicalscience.org/media/releases/2004/pr040305.cfm
Its no excuse to act like an a**hole though.

If it had to be another Marine Codex, a Samurai based codex would be pretty interesting. Although, I think plenty of stuff could use updates first.

On another reason why an Adeptus Mechanicus codex would be awesome: THINK OF THE CONVERSIONS! The amount of awesome Ork conversions I've seen on these forums is mind-boggling, and the Mechanicus have a similar "anything-goes" style when it comes to some of their personal and devices.

English Assassin wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Whaaaaat. That swamp-thing is a Skaven analog?

Yep. In fact, the old models for it looked like rat people. There is a picture of one in this link.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hrud

Isn't that just a converted Skaven? I'm pretty damned sure there have never been official Hrud models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: yes, those are definitely old Skaven models with Rogue Trader-era plastic weapons.

Really? Well damn.
to me.
But seriously though. Fielding Hrud would be neat. I would like to see more of the minor alien races in game honestly.

I want to see a Chaos Cultist list for feth's sake. Seriously. 99% of all rebellions in the IoM involve ordinary people. 99% of those rebellions involve Chaos. That means most of all Chaos worshippers are ordinary people. So why is Chaos represented solely by the rare super-soldiers, of which there are a limited supply? You can't wage a war for 10,000 years without taking casualties. If Chaos marines are doing all of the fighting (as they are on the tabletop) they will eventually (about 5,000 years ago) atrit themselves out of existence.

Give me Chaos cultists!

As for the discussion about race in 40K, I addressed this on an older thread; but GW isn't bleaching all the melanin out fo their armies for racist reasons; they are doing it to avoid charges of racism. The Salamanders were black guys of African appearance. GW's lawyers might have been concerned that their portrayal would offend real-life black guys of African descent. IRL I don't think it would, but lawyers get paid to be afraid of lawsuits. The DAs lost their Native American flavor for the same reason: fear of lawsuits.

Why haven't the SWs and White Scars been changed up? Well, when was the last time you met a Norse raider or Mongolian warrior? Those cultures are ancient, and dead. There are still Mongolians, yes, but they aren't currently rampaging through Europe. Neither are the Vikings. And the Romans aren't dominating Europe and feeding Christians to the lions right now. It's safe to base an army off of those cultures, because it's hard for anyone to sue you for portraying them offensively.

But there are still Native Americans around, and black guys of African descent, and they might (I said 'might') take offense at an ignorant white guy's depiction of them/their culture/ etc in his silly plastic army men game.

In my experience, nobody was actually offended by these armies, but that doesn't mean the lawyers weren't keyed-up looking for trouble. In an effort to avoid causing offence, GW made a lot of their armies bland.

squidhills wrote:I want to see a Chaos Cultist list for feth's sake. Seriously. 99% of all rebellions in the IoM involve ordinary people. 99% of those rebellions involve Chaos. That means most of all Chaos worshippers are ordinary people. So why is Chaos represented solely by the rare super-soldiers, of which there are a limited supply? You can't wage a war for 10,000 without taking casualties. If Chaos marines are doing all of the fighting (as they are on the tabletop) they will eventually (about 5,000 years ago) atrit themselves out of existence.

Because Speese Mahrines sell better.
But yeah, they do need a real cultist army.
If you want, the IA siege of Vraks series have rules for fielding renegades, who are basically traitor guard.

How awesome would a combined CSM/CIG codex be?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:How awesome would a combined CSM/CIG codex be?

Yeah, it could be like the old Daemonhunters codex. You know, like you can have a choice of traitor stormtroopers and CSM terminators.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:How awesome would a combined CSM/CIG codex be?

Yeah, it could be like the old Daemonhunters codex. You know, like you can have a choice of traitor stormtroopers and CSM terminators.

And bringing back Beastmen. Diseased Goatpeople and Minotaurs would make my day.

I have no idea why LatD don't have a codex.Traitor Guardsmen/PDF are probably the second most common enemy the Imperium faces after Orks.
Also, I think the standard Guard codex should provide supplemental rules for Stealthy (Catachan, Tanith), Mechanised (Armageddon), Drop Troop (Elysian, Harakoni), Human Wave (Death Korps, Valhallan) and Elite (Cadian) Imperial Guard regiments.

5. Hrud
4. Kroot
3. Arbites
2. Mechanicus
1. LatD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:How awesome would a combined CSM/CIG codex be?

That would be like a combined SM/IG Codex. Fluff wise it would make a lot more sense but game wise and sales wise it wouldn't.

1. Necrons, Tau and The Inquisistion (SoB + Henchmen and allies/inducted troops), because the players who have thoose armies deserve it (Oh dear Emperor, please no more loyalist marines!).
2. Chaos Legions - because the current codex is a mess and not very fluffy either. They really deserve a proper codex.
3. Catachans/deathworlders/underhive millitia - for a very unique playing style, very different from IG and generally all other armies. It wouldn't require that many new models either.
4. Chaos traitors/renegades. I know FW did this, but I think the Renegades from all over the Imperium are so important in the story of the Imperium that they should really have their own codex and a GW miniature line that supports it.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

And bringing back Beastmen. Diseased Goatpeople and Minotaurs would make my day.

Fething YES. Gimmie gimmie my beastmen! The things I used to do with them in 2nd Edition....

squidhills wrote:

As for the discussion about race in 40K, I addressed this on an older thread; but GW isn't bleaching all the melanin out fo their armies for racist reasons; they are doing it to avoid charges of racism. The Salamanders were black guys of African appearance. GW's lawyers might have been concerned that their portrayal would offend real-life black guys of African descent. IRL I don't think it would, but lawyers get paid to be afraid of lawsuits. The DAs lost their Native American flavor for the same reason: fear of lawsuits.

I really doubt that. Unless UK law is really different from US no one can be sued because of how a race, religion or ethnic group is portrayed. Only living individuals can sue for liable or slander, not groups.

Anyway, my last word on race, I think we're all in agreement. GW can/should look beyond Europe for inspiration. Not to fulfill an imaginary quota, but because there is cool and interesting stuff out there.

Then agian I look at their take on the Aztecs in the Lizard men (Tik Tak Toe? Grimloq? Lord Kroak? Really guys? Really? THat's the best you can do?) or the Tau (who seem to be modeled on anime, as understood by a blind man who once had anime described to him) and I think, maybe GW just aren't the guys to do it.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Then agian I look at their take on the Aztecs in the Lizard men (Tik Tak Toe? Grimloq? Lord Kroak? Really guys? Really? THat's the best you can do?) or the Tau (who seem to be modeled on anime, as understood by a blind man who once had anime described to him) and I think, maybe GW just aren't the guys to do it.

Catachans are funnier, since at least the Tau and Lizardmen are treated seriously.

Apparently, their only source of lore for the US troops in Vietnam was Predator. The actual Vietnamese troops would have been a great idea for troops from a Death World (Skinny, paranoid of everything around them); instead we get Jesse Ventura and Ahnold. Not that I'm complaining.

Codex: Death Korp of Kreig
GW, You listenin'?

Molten Butter wrote:
Apparently, their only source of lore for the US troops in Vietnam was Predator. The actual Vietnamese troops would have been a great idea for troops from a Death World (Skinny, paranoid of everything around them); instead we get Jesse Ventura and Ahnold. Not that I'm complaining.

The really funny thing is if they wanted an army that was one with the night, that ruled the jungle, that melted away like shadows, that had a fantaical devotion to their cause, they should have gone with the Viet Cong.

Now that would be a bold move...

forruner_mercy wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Imperial Fists? Really? The very image of a codex Marine chapter? God no. I love my Crimson Fists and I wouldn't want them or anyone else to have a new Marine codex. As the owner of entirely too many Marine armies, we don't need any more loyalist Marine books. Now a Chaos Legions one, that I'm all for. Aside from them and something like LatD/Genestealer cults/Adeptus Arbites I don't want any new armies in the game. GW takes long enough to update existing ones.

What about a joint Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Codex? GW already sells things that can apply to both.

Pages and pages late, but still no. There's literally nothing to justify them having their own codex. I'm saying this as someone who literally just primed his 6th tactical squad to go into his Crimson Fists battle company. What would the Crimson Fists have to justify their own codex? More veterans? Pedro already makes them scoring. What about Imperial Fists? There's nothing stopping you from taking 3 vindicators or devastator squads. They're both codex chapters, and the Imperial Fists are listed as being closer to codex than everyone but the Ultramarines.

Deathwatch don't need a codex. There's once again no reason for it. Just take sternguard veterans, they have almost the exact same rules as Deathwatch used to have. Sheesh.

Molten Butter wrote:Where's "Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus"? quote]

Omg yes this would be sooo awesome!