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tedurur wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Put me down for the 'we have far too many space marine codexes already' camp.

Space Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels. And Grey Knights and Chaos Space marines have become way too similar to 'normal' type marines.

Frankly I agree that Dark Angels do not require their own codex, all that is needed is a master of the ravenwing, master of the deathwing and maybe Chapter master character, in the normal codex. These HQ choices could alter the force organisation chart and have some mutable equipment options. Add in a few pages of background about the layout, aims, objectives, characteristics of the chapter and you're done. It'll never happen though.

Jeesh, Grey Knights should not be a fully fledged army. SW and BA I will give a pass to because they've been around forever (BA could have been done as a few options to regular marine armies at one point) BT probably should never have had an independent release, but they're just so cool.

So you think that the BA codex should be scraped as well? Just make a captain with jump pack count ASM as troops, done (more or less). SW, pretty much same thing. Give them a character that trades combat tactics for FC and CA, done (more or less)...ect ect
DA is most certainly just as unique as the other marine chapters with their own codex.

My sentiments exactly and they have been around just as long as the BA. The DA codex was the testbed for the new SM codex, but still suffers from all the problem they found and fixed in the SM codex. Do I think it should be next? Maybe not, Necrons and Tau need it more, but I do think it needs fixing.

For the Lion!

I, for one, would support the idea of more IG codices.

Particularly the idea of making one main book for standardized Imperial Guard that's longer than a normal codex and expands upon as many Imperial Guard regiments as possible, various battles and such and give the base rules for playing Imperial Guard.

In addition to that, they could make several much shorter booklets on specific regiments - one for Praetorians, one for Cadians, one for Mordians, one for Tallarn, one for Vostroyans, one for Catachans, one for Valhallans, etc.
Give all of them plastic kits and then release more regiments - Savlar Chem Dogs, Necromundans, etc. - and upgrade packs that you could make these regiments with. Not exactly the most economically viable solution, but it'd make everything more interesting. Same system could be used for other armies, I guess.

Even Codex: DKOK would be really interesting.

I'd also support bringing back as many of The Lost and Damned as possible - Heretic Guardsmen, etc.

Although, before releasing anything new, they should really update everything to 5th Edition. Move on from there.

Vaktathi wrote:

Seaward wrote:GW throws out more Marine books because Marines sell. Want more xenos books? Buy more xenos.

The analogy I always use in this situation is that it's like telling McDonald's to cut back on burgers and start producing more fish sandwich varieties.

It also doesn't help that non-SM armies will often go a 6-10 years without an update with nowhere near the model or marketing support.

Of course the line isn't going to sell as well if it's not updated or supported and is portrayed most often in marketing materials and stories simply an adversary for Space Marines.

Why buy the army that costs half again as much and won't get updated for years with an incomplete model line when you can do Space Marines instead?

Chicken or the egg, which came first?

There was a time when everything was brand new, prior to Necrons, Tyranids, Tau...and people still went for Space Marines. The majority of GW's fan base likes Space Marines. Thus, the majority of what GW produces is Space Marines.

Games Workshop is in the business of selling overpriced plastic toy mens. If they thought they could increase profits by dumping everybody but Space Marines, they would do so. If they thought they could increase profits by writing thirteen Eldar codices, they would do so. They're driven by the market.

How about a more radical solution and separate the rules and the fluff?

For example you could have "Forces of the Imperial Guard", which lists all the different unit rules /points etc.

You can then have a Codex: Cadians, Codex: Catachan, etc that provide background, painting guides, mission archives and the like. They could also be used to give force specific modifications (such as minimising tanks in Catachans), force specific battle mission scenarios, etc.

Great thing with that is when you want to update the rules the fluff books can stay on the shelves. And you can progressively add more fluff books as and when a designer has some time or a cool idea, or you want to just sell another damn book, without it screwing with game balance.

Seaward wrote:There was a time when everything was brand new, prior to Necrons, Tyranids, Tau...and people still went for Space Marines. The majority of GW's fan base likes Space Marines. Thus, the majority of what GW produces is Space Marines.

But that is based on four points that don't change:

* Easy to paint (ie "huge" areas of featureless armor)
* Super easy to play (I don't even play my Loyalists or my Chaos that much but have the base statline memorized)
* They come in every starter box
* They are THE iconic poster child for Games Workshop's 40K line

What would doing an Tau/Ork starter do? Or an Eldar/Dark Eldar starter?

I think the "vanilla" armies should Codexes while the variant groups/cults/chapters/legions/lists could get "books" through WD or purchasable as online PDFs. Fewer actual books to revise, PDFs could be kept to a reasonable, printable length, and so you'd have your codex and maybe 5 printed pages that would represent your army.

The DA codex has always seemed like a mess to me. It's like they are trying to do EVERYTHING! I mean, How exactly are Deathwing and RavenWing even in the same ballpark?

At least the BA have a consistent theme. FAST and assaulty. What the hell are the DA trying to do? Who knows. They don't even know.

How about no 'new' codexs and just get the darn TAU redone! As some of the ideas for 'new' codices are very nice and tempting, let's just try to update what is already there! Necrons, Tau need it bad. Chaos needs "Legions".

No more Marine Chapters please. No new Codices anyway. I'm all for the current ones being redone like all the others, it would be doing a disservice to the people who play those armies if they were combined into one book.

It either means they have to buy a giant Codex that costs five times as much and includes a whole lot of useless information, or they'd buy a smaller one that cuts out the majority of the army's content. So, keep the current ones.

For the other Legions, Salamander's, Raven Guard etc. simply create Legion rules along the lines of JustDave's Chaos fandex (again, good job JustDave, you've probably solved the problem of having too many Marine Codices). Salamanders Legion rule unlocks special character Vulkan He'stan, allows all the rules He'stan gives regular armies without the need to take him, a couple of wargear options, and one or two new units, like dedicated flamer/melta units or an advanced Dreadnought suit.

It's as simple as that. Codex marines do not choose a Legion rule, but because of this, Legion Rules also handicap an army in one or another.

The Chaos Legions Codex follows the same principle, and is accompanied by another Chaos Codex, Chaos Renegades. This includes options for the Lost and the Dammed and Renegade Marines, but it does not have access to most units in the Legion codex.

Add in an Inquisition Codex, which includes Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and all the Inquisition stuff ripped from the Grey Knights codex.

Then create an Adeptus Mechanicus codex. I had an idea that would allow people to play both the Dark and Loyal Mechanicus. You have a standard list of units, Skitarii, Robots, warmachines, etc.
Out with this you have two rules that you pick, Dark Mechanicus, or Adeptus Mechanicus. The former allows Daemon Engines and Daemonic Gifts in addition to standard units and wargear, whilst the latter allows access to some really old and advanced wargear and units.

Seaward wrote:

Chicken or the egg, which came first?

There was a time when everything was brand new, prior to Necrons, Tyranids, Tau...and people still went for Space Marines. The majority of GW's fan base likes Space Marines. Thus, the majority of what GW produces is Space Marines.

Games Workshop is in the business of selling overpriced plastic toy mens. If they thought they could increase profits by dumping everybody but Space Marines, they would do so. If they thought they could increase profits by writing thirteen Eldar codices, they would do so. They're driven by the market.

This is assuming GW is a competent business responding to market forces. Remember that many things, especially back in RT/2E that were pet projects that continued out of momentum, usually because there was something broken about them (Space Wolves in 2E for instance). Also, this is the same business that operated in violation of UK law with the same person as CEO and Chairman of the board, *borrowing* money to pay dividends (which usually are only done when there is excess cash to distribute) enabling him to double his yearly income.

Trusting GW to be competent in this regard is rather difficult.

Honestly, the loss of Lost and the Damned was what pushed me over the edge, in terms of leaving 40k. It was the most entertaining and characterful 40k force I'd ever played, and now it's dead.

I miss the days of the mini-dexes: Codex Armageddon and Codex Eye of Terror were some of the best variant armies GW ever produced.

Seriously, they took a Vanilla army, gave it 2-6 pages of changes (mostly a couple pieces of wargear, a couple new units, and a list of what you couldn't field), and they had done plenty to make a new army.

Why invest the time in making a 100 page book (codes: BT or whatever) when a 10 page book of alterations is all you need?

EDIT: 4th(?) edition Codex Guard's doctrines really weren't perfect, but they were enough to make it so Steel Legion and Catachans didn't play exactly the same. I'd be fine with any small scale changes that allowed my old Ulthwe Strike force to hit the field (a half page of limitations and one new piece of wargear); my old Lost and the Damned to be legal (2-3 units and a new list of which CSM/Guard units were legal); etc.etc. Not even mini-codexes, just a handful of alterations.

what about the black templars? they need a new dex, they are still somewhat competitive but get stomped by every other marine chapter besides dark angles. I would like to see a deathwatch and legion of the damned dex also but who knows.

tedurur wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Put me down for the 'we have far too many space marine codexes already' camp.

Space Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels. And Grey Knights and Chaos Space marines have become way too similar to 'normal' type marines.

Frankly I agree that Dark Angels do not require their own codex, all that is needed is a master of the ravenwing, master of the deathwing and maybe Chapter master character, in the normal codex. These HQ choices could alter the force organisation chart and have some mutable equipment options. Add in a few pages of background about the layout, aims, objectives, characteristics of the chapter and you're done. It'll never happen though.

Jeesh, Grey Knights should not be a fully fledged army. SW and BA I will give a pass to because they've been around forever (BA could have been done as a few options to regular marine armies at one point) BT probably should never have had an independent release, but they're just so cool.

So you think that the BA codex should be scraped as well? Just make a captain with jump pack count ASM as troops, done (more or less). SW, pretty much same thing. Give them a character that trades combat tactics for FC and CA, done (more or less)...ect ect
DA is most certainly just as unique as the other marine chapters with their own codex.

Yes, that's exactly what I think (I've bolded the bit where I note that).

I know it will absolutely not happen, it's not good for business to 'scrap' armies once they've got their own codex. But really I find every player's need to have a codex solely for their favoured faction quixotic. Look at this thread - as soon as the topic comes up everyone starts to say how X specific marine chapter or IG regiment really really needs its own book. Why the need to have a seperate publication for every little thing. Once GW used to produce things like the craftworld eldar army lists or the special rules for chaos legions/index astartes, special variant army lists popping up right and left. They stopped because it was a nightmare to keep track of and led to loads of dead-end concepts.
I completely agree with this decision. There should be a limited number of codexes. Each should have a comprehensive selection of units, plenty of special characters, loads of different possibilities for building armies. But what we absolutely do not need is a seperate publication for each sub-sub-sub-force. That way lies madness. It mucks up the release schedule, it creates stupid contradictions in the rules (like the massive changes in options and even equipment rules between 4th and 5th edition marine codexes) and is part of why we have so much material detailing the different fashion choices of space marines but only 20 page leaflets for potentially-interesting armies like necrons.

Realistic answer: yes, I think that 5+ marine codexes is one of the overlapping problems with WH40k, its linked with the stupid way of releasing new books in sequence. But it is not going to change, DA and BA will remain seperate armies with loads of illogical minor differences, and we will not see Codex White Scars, Codex Savlar Chem Dogs, or anyone else's favourite unique-snowflake codex.

Sorry if I sound worked up. But seriously, do people really think that having seperate armies for dozens on dozens of organisations would be an improvement? It would be a nightmare!

P.S. there's a post just up the page wishing for a codex with some nice '3rd reich background'. At least we can all agree in hoping that guy doesn't get his wish!

Most of the variants, I think, could be summed up with very simple changes, for instance (not saying these would be balanced):

Imperial Guard:
-all infantry has +1 cover saves and +1 BS but costs 2 more points, and a maximum of 2 non-walker vehicles=Catachans, First and Only, etc.

Space Marines:
-Plasma weapons cost 2 points less, terminators or bikers can be taken as troop choices with a commander with the respective upgrade (terminator armor/ bike), stubborn instead of They Shall Know No Fear = Dark Angels
-All tactical squads may replace bolters with CCWs for free, scouts may be added to tactical squads; no librarians or scout squads= Black Templars

Chaos Space Marines:
Can only take one cult, all cult units of the appropriate number get one point off per model

… Stuff like that would cover 90% of the variant lists, especially with 1-2 special characters. It'd add 10-40 pages to each book, but consolidate them all in to one.

There would still be tricky ones, like Lost and the Damned, but there'll always be exceptions.

1- Tyranids (done right)
2- Tau
3- Hrud (Because we need a Skaven analogue. The balance must be maintained)
4- Inquisition (basically combines SoB, GK and Deathwatch)
5 - Necrons
6 - Arbites
7- Traitor Guard
8 - Demons (done right)
9 - Craftworld Eldar
10 - Exodite Eldar (Because we need a Wood Elf analogue. The balance must be maintained)

CthuluIsSpy wrote:1- Tyranids (done right)
2- Tau
3- Hrud (Because we need a Skaven analogue. The balance must be maintained)
4- Inquisition (basically combines SoB, GK and Deathwatch)
5 - Necrons
6 - Arbites
7- Traitor Guard
8 - Demons (done right)
9 - Craftworld Eldar
10 - Exodite Eldar (Because we need a Wood Elf analogue. The balance must be maintained)

What the hell's a Hrud?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:1- Tyranids (done right)
2- Tau
3- Hrud (Because we need a Skaven analogue. The balance must be maintained)
4- Inquisition (basically combines SoB, GK and Deathwatch)
5 - Necrons
6 - Arbites
7- Traitor Guard
8 - Demons (done right)
9 - Craftworld Eldar
10 - Exodite Eldar (Because we need a Wood Elf analogue. The balance must be maintained)

What the hell's a Hrud?

Another thing that comes up alot in 40K fluff, but isn't actually shown. (well, they used to anyway)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hrud#.Tot29rK9uuI

Whaaaaat. That swamp-thing is a Skaven analog?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Whaaaaat. That swamp-thing is a Skaven analog?

Yep. In fact, the old models for it looked like rat people. There is a picture of one in this link.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hrud

CpatTom wrote:Tau, haha, who am I kidding. Seriously though. I want Tau.

More Marines? Ah, yeah, probably more marines.

In the grim darkness of the future there exists small groups of highly trained super soldiers. They fight with the might and ferocity of 500 men, watched in awe by regular men like angels carving death across a battle field. They are the elite fighting force of the Imperium, they are Space Marines, and they are everywhere.

That made me laugh. But its the damn truth. Sheesh! Ive had more then a couple new players ask me "If there are so few SM out there....then why do they have more codices then any other army?" and I really cant answer that other then "Because they sell well?"

KingCracker wrote:
Ive had more then a couple new players ask me "If there are so few SM out there....then why do they have more codices then any other army?" and I really cant answer that other then "Because they sell well?"

Sure you can make answers that aren't the typical smartalecky remarks of "They sell well".

Codices are there to represent 'divergent forces'. Black Templars are different in organizational structure and the types of units they field from the "Codex Marines" who are different from the Dark Angels who are different from the Space Wolves(...well, at least they were before Kelly wrote C: SW) who are different from the Blood Angels.

Yeah, Kan, c'mon - they make more Marine Codices because they make money. There's no need to be intentionally ignorant of the realities of sales figures.

If the 'divergence' argument held any water well... we'd see more Guard and Chaos Codices than Marine ones.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Whaaaaat. That swamp-thing is a Skaven analog?

Yep. In fact, the old models for it looked like rat people. There is a picture of one in this link.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hrud

Isn't that just a converted Skaven? I'm pretty damned sure there have never been official Hrud models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: yes, those are definitely old Skaven models with Rogue Trader-era plastic weapons.

If they're gonna pump out some more "divergent" codices, I'd rather see some guard. I mean, it seems stupid that they take existing stuff and say "Slap on a different paint job and you have yourself a new codex!" But then they have tons of pretty sweet models already being pumped out for guard, and the regiments don't even have their own units in the codex - let alone their own codex entirely.

The thing is, they can't really publish divergent ones for other races because most other races are usually almost totally unified on school of thought and such. I can't think of a Tau or Eldar force that's noteworthy enough to get their own codex.

Am I the only one who senses the OP's inherent racism, as a European-American, I hate to look at a thread and see various Marine chapters being praised solely for not being white. If I went out of my way to join in and state that my only requirement for a new codex was that they be based on European culture I would be almost universally seen as loony, I hope the OP recognizes this.

rickross wrote:Am I the only one who senses the OP's inherent racism, as a European-American, I hate to look at a thread and see various Marine chapters being praised solely for not being white. If I went out of my way to join in and state that my only requirement for a new codex was that they be based on European culture I would be almost universally seen as loony, I hope the OP recognizes this.

He means black as in the color of their power armor, not skin color. Look at what he said for Salamanders. Now who's the racist, racist.

He stated White Scars are interesting primarily because of their Non-European culture.

rickross wrote:He stated White Scars are interesting primarily because of their Non-European culture.

1) No, that was one of multiple reasons
2) That's not racist in the slightest. That's like saying being interested in the Eldar for their Celtic-references, or being interested in the Tau for the greater anime fan, is racist. Is GW racist for making armies that aren't purely Anglo-Saxon in nature? God no, and it's not racist to like a little diversity. In fact, it's pretty arguable that that's in fact the opposite.

I think the OP wasn't trying to be racist by wanting a non-European culture, but rather was more interested simply in diversity of style. We've got two Space Marine armies based on knights and three Space Marine (Since SoB are MEQ) armies with lots of angelic and Catholic imagery. It just gets a bit repetitive.

Lordraymond wrote:The thing is, they can't really publish divergent ones for other races because most other races are usually almost totally unified on school of thought and such. I can't think of a Tau or Eldar force that's noteworthy enough to get their own codex.

*Cough* Kroot *Cough*

Kylis wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:9 - White Scars: Cooler bikes than the Raven Wing, bold color scheme, non-European background AND they would fill a niche of fast cavalry marines which the other chapters really don't do.

What's wrong with European background? Is it because of western civization is formed in there or what?

Because we have the European Knight Marines, the European Monk Marines, the OTHER European Knight Marines, the European Viking Marines, the European Vampire Knight Marines and the European Roman Marines. Since I spend most of my time outside the US and Europe it irks me how limited GW's horizon is.

An Asian Indian themed chapter would get me excited. THe other other other European Knights would not.

Codex: Death Korps of Krieg would be really nice to see with 3rd Reich background.

Yeah.

Cause ain't nothing cooler than Nazis.

Hey Kid, have you heard of the Emperor's Shadows?
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Shadows

SM Ninjas, basically.

rickross wrote:Am I the only one who senses the OP's inherent racism, as a European-American, I hate to look at a thread and see various Marine chapters being praised solely for not being white. If I went out of my way to join in and state that my only requirement for a new codex was that they be based on European culture I would be almost universally seen as loony, I hope the OP recognizes this.

I mentioned this earlier but let me follow up. I spend a lot of time in Asia and the Caribbean so I tend to be very aware of the 90% of the human race that's not white. So I always get irked at visions of the future that do not show some of that diversity.

I've only been to the UK twice but from what I see it's far from being all white. But you wouldn't know it from GW's paint jobs or artwork.

So yeah, I wish they'd do more.