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DeathReaper wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:I was under the impression this was a fluff battle.

3+ cover saves have no place here.

In that case the Marines would win.

They would make the use of cover if they find themselves outgunned while they advance and get into melee combat where the Stormtroopers do not have much of a chance.

And the ST couldn't make use of greater experience to gain advantage on the scout ways to keep opening range to keep the Scout at bay? Keep in mind we're also talking about a 7ft dude in full carapace armor, not exactly the hardest thing to spot, and they don't always have camo cloaks by any means.

Seriously, Kurt Russel as Sgt Todd wins. Soldier. The Movie.

Vaktathi wrote:And the ST couldn't make use of greater experience to gain advantage on the scout ways to keep opening range to keep the Scout at bay? Keep in mind we're also talking about a 7ft dude in full carapace armor, not exactly the hardest thing to spot, and they don't always have camo cloaks by any means.

Remember the scouts are led by a full fledged Space Marine Sergeant, His experiences dwarf any and all ST experiences. I would imagine he would lead the combat squad around the flank while the dug in sniper scouts kept the ST's wondering. then once the Sgt launched the assault, its over for the ST's.

I've never served in any armed force, but how much does effective leadership affect how the unit performs as a whole?

Also, how many STs would it take to down a Scout Sergeant?

IG vets and storm troopers everytime. A bunch of religous fanatics in carapace armor is no match for proper professional soldiers.

Just like modern combat all the IG has to do is pin the scouts till they can call a arty strike to do away with them.

Jubear wrote:IG vets and storm troopers everytime. A bunch of religous fanatics in carapace armor is no match for proper professional soldiers.

Just like modern combat all the IG has to do is pin the scouts till they can call a arty strike to do away with them.

Wat.
First off, Storm Troopers are just as religious as Space Marines.
Second, a Scout doesn't just have the Carapace Armor and a Bolter. He is a Space Marine, sans Black Carapace.

I thought this was a one on one fight.

Actually we're discussing 1v1 and 10v10.

1v1 Scout sgt then?

sure why not. I think its agreed that in shooting the ST would win and in h2h the Scout would win.

Might as well do Scout Sergeants too.
Heck, while we're at it Wolf Scouts too.

Coolyo294 wrote:

Jubear wrote:IG vets and storm troopers everytime. A bunch of religous fanatics in carapace armor is no match for proper professional soldiers.

Just like modern combat all the IG has to do is pin the scouts till they can call a arty strike to do away with them.

Wat.
First off, Storm Troopers are just as religious as Space Marines.
Second, a Scout doesn't just have the Carapace Armor and a Bolter. He is a Space Marine, sans Black Carapace.

In your head the may be but in my head they are far to busy surviving to be bothered by something as stupid as religion.

And you know the best thing? You cant tell me otherwise because its a fictional universe there is no right answer.

Jubear wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

Jubear wrote:IG vets and storm troopers everytime. A bunch of religous fanatics in carapace armor is no match for proper professional soldiers.

Just like modern combat all the IG has to do is pin the scouts till they can call a arty strike to do away with them.

Wat.
First off, Storm Troopers are just as religious as Space Marines.
Second, a Scout doesn't just have the Carapace Armor and a Bolter. He is a Space Marine, sans Black Carapace.

In your head the may be but in my head they are far to busy surviving to be bothered by something as stupid as religion.

And you know the best thing? You cant tell me otherwise because its a fictional universe there is no right answer.

Yes, there is.
From Lexicanum:

Storm Trooper recruits are chosen from the progena of the Schola Progenium, where they have been raised and educated, and molded into loyal and dedicated servants of the Emperor

.

Lexicanum? Oh you mean a website run with no input from GW that lexicnum you mean?

Mate Ive been involved in the hobby since 91 Ive seen squats come and go Ive see the Tau appear from nowhere and Ive seen enough key points of the lore changed to know that anything can change at any time lore wise and there is never a "right" answer.

Jubear wrote:Lexicanum? Oh you mean a website run with no input from GW that lexicnum you mean?

Mate Ive been involved in the hobby since 91 Ive seen squats come and go Ive see the Tau appear from nowhere and Ive seen enough key points of the lore changed to know that anything can change at any time lore wise and there is never a "right" answer.

Yeah, so you know space marines are actually giant blue gerbils, right? Because the fluff always changes, it makes it true.

I think the Vets, or Storm troopers would win. This is based on the cunning and general survivability of most of these types of troops. Take Vets for example, they got the name of veteran because they've survived things that killed most of their comrades. Not only that, but many of the Vets have weapons they we're requisitioned or looted off the corpse of a fallen enemy (or friend). While scouts are powerful and a big threat the Vets have probablly gone up against even more insurmountable odds and overcome. They are survivors by their nature and the epitomy of what humans do best, which is adapt and overcome.

Storm Troopers have many of the same qualities Vets do, and with an even more intense training regiment they would easily destroy the Scouts in a fire fight. I think this because they are trained to be able to handle any combat situation from jumping out of an aircraft to infiltrating an enemy base and destroying everything in sight. Plus, Storm troopers are ready to lay down their lives just to complete their objective. This willingness to die, ontop of all of their training makes them a superior fighting force than Scouts. (Plus they are Elites compared to troops)

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Jubear wrote:Lexicanum? Oh you mean a website run with no input from GW that lexicnum you mean?

Mate Ive been involved in the hobby since 91 Ive seen squats come and go Ive see the Tau appear from nowhere and Ive seen enough key points of the lore changed to know that anything can change at any time lore wise and there is never a "right" answer.

Yeah, so you know space marines are actually giant blue gerbils, right? Because the fluff always changes, it makes it true.

Yeah they could be for all I know because fluff is always changing and if that is what SM are in your head then go with it who am I to tell you your wrong.

Those Storm Troopers that are meant for the one IG ST regiment all come from the Schola Progenium, which is run by the Ecclesiarchy. This should pretty much be an accepted fact for anyone who follows the setting as laid out by GW.

That said, I would not call them religious fanatics. Just like the Commissars, Assassins, Inquisitors, Scribes and NCOs the Schola churns out, they are far more "professional" than the Sisters, their upbringing focusing more on a deep sense of loyalty and devotion to the Imperium rather than religious zeal, though it should be noted that the two concepts are, in a way, only two sides of the same coin. But you won't see a Storm Trooper endanger his mission because it's prayer time or something like that.

When it comes to the Storm Troopers, I like to think of Schola education as akin to the Napola of Nazi-Germany, if that helps to convey the image: movie trailer

On another note, not all Space Marines are religious fanatics either. In fact, I only know a few Chapters I'd actually describe as such, as Astartes don't seem very religious in general. A more accurate term might be ... hm ... dedication to a cause? Similar to the Storm Troopers. The smarter kind of zeal, basically.

Jubear wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Jubear wrote:Lexicanum? Oh you mean a website run with no input from GW that lexicnum you mean?

Mate Ive been involved in the hobby since 91 Ive seen squats come and go Ive see the Tau appear from nowhere and Ive seen enough key points of the lore changed to know that anything can change at any time lore wise and there is never a "right" answer.

Yeah, so you know space marines are actually giant blue gerbils, right? Because the fluff always changes, it makes it true.

Yeah they could be for all I know because fluff is always changing and if that is what SM are in your head then go with it who am I to tell you your wrong.

The Zen-Reverse Troll!

If they're toting the camo cloaks, the Scouts, if they're carrying the Stalker-pattern (sniper) boltguns, take it by a mile. They can sit in the same place, not moving, for days on end, and remain fully functional, whereas a Stormtrooper, being merely human, cannot. The SM's body recycles his waste... the ST's, er, doesn't.

Psienesis wrote:The SM's body recycles his waste...

Only with power armour.
That said, I'm sure both the Storm Troopers as well as the Scout would carry ration packs. But the Scout would still be able to live a bit longer even when food runs out due to speshul gene magiks I reckon. And you make a good point about remaining motionless for extended amounts of time. I've never read that, but it seems believable.

I find the level of "survival skills" would be about equal. A scout could still be a scout for at least a decade of full combat before proper elevation to Battle-Brother status, and given their possible equipment choices (Sniper Rifle, Heavy Bolter, boltguns, etc) makes some REALLY nice firepower.

From what I understand the Stormtrooper's hellgun could kill a Scout, but Scouts fight smart, not nearly as bold as a full-Astartes.

They're Astartes without Power Armor, as by the age of 17 or so, that's all they need to be a full Marine, with all the training, skills, and genetic modification they would have. That alone could prove the difference.

Scouts win every time. they are stronger and faster than any IG vet. simple as that. they are trained to a much higher standard than the IG vets. Besides to be recruited and inducted as a scout in a SM fiorce in the first place you have to be one Bad ass Mofo. The IG takes on anybody who can pass basic fitness. the vets are only vets because they have survived their first major conflict. scouts do that everyday.

Don't underestimate Guard veterans. A CSM -Lord- did that and got strangled by one.

DeathReaper wrote:
Remember the scouts are led by a full fledged Space Marine Sergeant, His experiences dwarf any and all ST experiences.

IIRC this was a straight comparison of an average scout against an average ST, where this wouldn't come into play. That said, ST's aren't exactly nubcakes, and we're talking an entire unit of the best trained, most experienced troops the Imperium has to offer outside the Space Marines, the IG's equivalent of SAS/SEALS.

I would imagine he would lead the combat squad around the flank while the dug in sniper scouts kept the ST's wondering. then once the Sgt launched the assault, its over for the ST's.

Agan, this is assuming the ST's are pants on head slowed and not insanely trained, highly experienced special forces assault troops.

The IG takes on anybody who can pass basic fitness.

Not really, but whatever.

the vets are only vets because they have survived their first major conflict.

Again, not entirely accurate, and keep in mind that a major conflict for the IG makes the Second World War look like a skirmish. To survive that probably means you're a pretty badassmofo.


Also, there's Vets and then there are Stormtroopers.

Scouts would probably win, unless it was on Catachan..
The scouts have similar combat skill, better equipment, stronger, faster, tougher, and they have the sarge, who is a space marine, without the armor.

Catachans always win. Cause they are the last action heroes of 40k.

Vaktathi wrote:

beef wrote:The IG takes on anybody who can pass basic fitness.

Not really, but whatever.

To be fair, that depends highly on the individual homeworld. They share all the same stats in the TT right now because they have a single Codex, but judging from the fluff I see a huge disparity in quality between, say, a Catachan regiment and the Jopall Indentured. That said, the Storm Troopers are arguably one of the best regiments of the Imperial Guard as a whole (and they do hold a very unique role), whereas it is safe to say that IG Veterans must have been good enough to survive the many battles to actually be counted vets. The Codex entries on those blooded and decimated Veteran units are fairly grimdark, anyways, and sound very much like professional Darwinism to me.

And yeah, OP was asking to compare a Scout Initiate to a Guard Veteran and/or Storm Trooper. Scout Sergeants only come into play for the squad-level comparison.

On squad level, I could see the Scouts having a much easier win than in a one-on-one, as they'd profit from the experience of their leader, and the genetical superiority of their bodies would increase group efficiency exponentially. Just an "educated guess", though.

Lynata wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The IG takes on anybody who can pass basic fitness.

Not really, but whatever.

To be fair, that depends highly on the individual homeworld. They share all the same stats in the TT right now because they have a single Codex, but judging from the fluff I see a huge disparity in quality between, say, a Catachan regiment and the Jopall Indentured. That said, the Storm Troopers are arguably one of the best regiments of the Imperial Guard as a whole (and they do hold a very unique role), whereas it is safe to say that IG Veterans must have been good enough to survive the many battles to actually be counted vets. The Codex entries on those blooded and decimated Veteran units are fairly grimdark, anyways, and sound very much like professional Darwinism to me.

And yeah, OP was asking to compare a Scout Initiate to a Guard Veteran and/or Storm Trooper. Scout Sergeants only come into play for the squad-level comparison.

On squad level, I could see the Scouts having a much easier win than in a one-on-one, as they'd profit from the experience of their leader, and the genetical superiority of their bodies would increase group efficiency exponentially. Just an "educated guess", though.

Please do not misquote me.
Not really sure where you got that quote from, but I never said that in the Orange up there...

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Remember the scouts are led by a full fledged Space Marine Sergeant, His experiences dwarf any and all ST experiences.

IIRC this was a straight comparison of an average scout against an average ST, where this wouldn't come into play. That said, ST's aren't exactly nubcakes, and we're talking an entire unit of the best trained, most experienced troops the Imperium has to offer outside the Space Marines, the IG's equivalent of SAS/SEALS.

The Scouts are equally similar to the SAS/SEALS, but (at least) a decade of intense training, many implants (like the brain compartmentalization, where sleep is not needed for up to 2 weeks, nigh on impervious to extreme weather, Larraman's Organ (swift healing of wounds), the Omophagea (the 'learn by eating' organ, where genetic memories are absorbed by consuming the flesh, so a Scout could potentially eat a local animal and have a strong understanding of the area), the heavily increased vision, and the Betcher's Gland (aka, the acid-spitting gland).

They also have intense reaction speeds.

ST's may not be nubcakes, but a Space Marine Scout is still on a higher level playing field, between his heavy firepower, genetic modifications, and other things even an ST would lack.

Hm, well... The first objective would obviously be to see who can give the best bearhug. The Space Marine Scout is significantly stronger than a "normal" human, even a Stormtrooper or Imperial Guard Veteran. So the Scout would have the advantage in round one - especially if he manages not to break any ribs on the person being huggled.

The second objective would obviously be to give good backrubs. I'd certainly volunteer to be a judge, and I'd imagine that both would possess the necessary strength to really make me all comfy, but the Veteran/Stormtrooper would have the advantage of years more experience, and so would have learned the best ways to apply his strength. Hm, maybe a tie, and I'd probably end up taking a good nap - backrubs make me all calm and sleepy. If the particular Scout were to use all his strength, he'd probably end up hurting me more than anything else, so he'd lose points there.

The third and final objective would be cuddling. The Scout would likely be brawny enough to hug me close and keep me safe and comfy, but so would an Imperial Guard Veteran or Stormtrooper, and the latter two would probably, again, have more experience.

Hm, the Scout's superior strength may actually be a disadvantage in this contest, especially seeing as he'd just be learning to use his newfound strength and so may end up harming me more than anything else. The Veteran and Stormtrooper would both possess enough strength, but have learned how to use it best given their years of experience.

Gotta give it to the Veterans or Stormtroopers.