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Pouncey wrote:Hm, well... The first objective would obviously be to see who can give the best bearhug. The Space Marine Scout is significantly stronger than a "normal" human, even a Stormtrooper or Imperial Guard Veteran. So the Scout would have the advantage in round one - especially if he manages not to break any ribs on the person being huggled.

The second objective would obviously be to give good backrubs. I'd certainly volunteer to be a judge, and I'd imagine that both would possess the necessary strength to really make me all comfy, but the Veteran/Stormtrooper would have the advantage of years more experience, and so would have learned the best ways to apply his strength. Hm, maybe a tie, and I'd probably end up taking a good nap - backrubs make me all calm and sleepy. If the particular Scout were to use all his strength, he'd probably end up hurting me more than anything else, so he'd lose points there.

The third and final objective would be cuddling. The Scout would likely be brawny enough to hug me close and keep me safe and comfy, but so would an Imperial Guard Veteran or Stormtrooper, and the latter two would probably, again, have more experience.

Hm, the Scout's superior strength may actually be a disadvantage in this contest, especially seeing as he'd just be learning to use his newfound strength and so may end up harming me more than anything else. The Veteran and Stormtrooper would both possess enough strength, but have learned how to use it best given their years of experience.

Gotta give it to the Veterans or Stormtroopers.

wtfamireading.jpg

Pouncey wrote:Hm, well... The first objective would obviously be to see who can give the best bearhug. The Space Marine Scout is significantly stronger than a "normal" human, even a Stormtrooper or Imperial Guard Veteran. So the Scout would have the advantage in round one - especially if he manages not to break any ribs on the person being huggled.

The second objective would obviously be to give good backrubs. I'd certainly volunteer to be a judge, and I'd imagine that both would possess the necessary strength to really make me all comfy, but the Veteran/Stormtrooper would have the advantage of years more experience, and so would have learned the best ways to apply his strength. Hm, maybe a tie, and I'd probably end up taking a good nap - backrubs make me all calm and sleepy. If the particular Scout were to use all his strength, he'd probably end up hurting me more than anything else, so he'd lose points there.

The third and final objective would be cuddling. The Scout would likely be brawny enough to hug me close and keep me safe and comfy, but so would an Imperial Guard Veteran or Stormtrooper, and the latter two would probably, again, have more experience.

Hm, the Scout's superior strength may actually be a disadvantage in this contest, especially seeing as he'd just be learning to use his newfound strength and so may end up harming me more than anything else. The Veteran and Stormtrooper would both possess enough strength, but have learned how to use it best given their years of experience.

Gotta give it to the Veterans or Stormtroopers.

You sir are my hero may the dice gods bless you with luck and courage.

However I think your forgetting the "snuggle" gland that Space Marines have implanted as part of the space marine makeover they all recieve. This gland allows the space marine to snuggle at maxium efficiency with out his arm falling asleep under his partner. They truly are super human

Concealment: Both tend to use camo to fit the terrain (even if most scouts are modeled in flashy colors...) Also both can take Camo cloaks to further increase concealment Edge: DRAW

Tactics: Scouts are newly inducted space marines. They don't have much experience in the arts of war. The IG on the other hand have seen the elephant, they've experience war in its horror. Their experience on the battlefield will show. Edge: IG

Weapons: This one is tough, on one hand you got the scouts with their bolters, compared to the IG with the lasgun. However IG can take plasma guns, but for the basic weapon, the higher stopping power of the bolter wins out. Edge: Scouts.

Armor: They both wear the same armor. Edge: Draw

Accuracy: The IG are better marksmen then the scouts. Which ensures the ig will hit more then the scouts. EDGE: IG

Close Combat: Both are equally skilled in Close combat EDGE: DRAW

Attributes: The scouts are faster, stronger, and tougher. EDGE: Scouts

If we tally up the totals the Scouts have an edge in 2 of the categories. While the IG have an edge 2 Categories. Seemingly this is a draw and could go either way. However, the IG have the edge in a very crucial category, they are more experienced in actual combat. Which is a major factor. And the other is their superior accuracy. Drawing from this, I have come to the conclusion that the IG will use their experience to force the scouts to engage at range, negating the superior strength of the scouts. Also using their experience the IG will use the battlefield to their advantage better then the scouts would. I'd say its extremely close but i'd say the IG would win 55-60% of the time.


Now feel free to disagree with me, i mean its only a game, and if we count in plot armor the scouts will slaughter over 9000 guardsmen without a single causality. And why did i do this post, well i'm at work and really @#$%&% bored.

I have to disagree with the close combat result. They do fight the same, but Scouts hit harder.

Yeah i was think purely in terms of skill.

Scouts are faster, stronger, and tougher, but still fail in close combat?

And how do IG have better accuracy? Scouts are often the marksmen, using high-power sniper rifles from great distances. The whole point is, y'know marksmanship. Not to mention the better reflexes and eyesight of a Scout. (not even in rules-terms does this work, at best ST's are their equals with a BS of 4, never mind in the fluff)

Not sure when ST's start training, but Scout starts when he was 10, and at the earliest becomes a full battle-brother 10 years later or so. Possibly longer.

And a Scout would take part in battles alongside normal Marines regularly, facing the same war, and taking down the same horrors. Both might be similar in some areas, but the Scouts would clearly come out on top.

I believe being able to eat things and gain their knowledge of the area would help the Scouts quite a bit with the whole "being able to use his environment to his advantage" bit.

(Also, I'd suggest not using IG as an alternate term for Stormtroopers. An average Guardsman would die 1v1 100% of the time, and their average lifespan of a new guardsman is about 15 hours. Not much experience there. I can see you're trying to use ST as your point, but the IG is a very different beast.)

I did say IG Veteran...

Referring to ObliviousBlueCaboose's big post.

Not yours, sorry about that.

Scout - everyone keeps saying the IG have 'more experience' - the scout has the codex astartes, remember that IG combat doctrines can be a bit backwards. The scout has superior traiing, technology, equipment and skills. He is hypno-indoctrinated (think neo in the matrix ... 'I know kung-fu!') with tons of knowledge and wisdom. He knows no fear. I'm not saying the vets would be push overs but the scouts would probably have them for breakfast

Phototoxin wrote:Scout - everyone keeps saying the IG have 'more experience' - the scout has the codex astartes, remember that IG combat doctrines can be a bit backwards. The scout has superior traiing, technology, equipment and skills. He is hypno-indoctrinated (think neo in the matrix ... 'I know kung-fu!') with tons of knowledge and wisdom. He knows no fear. I'm not saying the vets would be push overs but the scouts would probably have them for breakfast

THANK YOU!

I get *some* IG special warriors can have a lot of experience, but I can never get that argument that they'd have that more experience than a Scout. (The Imperial Guard isn't a career for long, full lives. 10 years is a pretty darn long time to be in active duty, and still be alive)

They both go out in a blaze of glory. Most likely scenario by far.

Fluff-wise, even Scouts should mop the floor with anybody but the most legendary IG hero (i.e. Straken, Yarrick). You don't get to be a Space Marine by lottery, most of their inductees are the smartest, toughest, and strongest from very scary death worlds, who then get genetically enhanced and hypno-trained to be superhuman fighting machines on top of being Rambo. A Scout's spit could kill a Stormtrooper, and a Stormtrooper could shoot a Scout with his lasgun point-blank and stands a good chance of just leaving scorch marks. You are talking Navy SEALS versus comic-book superheroes.

In game terms, Scouts need a 4+ to hit at range and a 3+ to wound at range (with a bolt pistol), and the Stormtroopers need a 3+ to hit and a 5+ to wound. Advantage Scouts. In CC, they are on equal terms, but the Scouts hit first and only need a 3+ to wound again, while the Stormtroopers still need a 5+ to wound, and only the survivors get to swing back. Space Marines mop the floor with them on equal terms.

Jubear wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Hm, well... The first objective would obviously be to see who can give the best bearhug. The Space Marine Scout is significantly stronger than a "normal" human, even a Stormtrooper or Imperial Guard Veteran. So the Scout would have the advantage in round one - especially if he manages not to break any ribs on the person being huggled.

The second objective would obviously be to give good backrubs. I'd certainly volunteer to be a judge, and I'd imagine that both would possess the necessary strength to really make me all comfy, but the Veteran/Stormtrooper would have the advantage of years more experience, and so would have learned the best ways to apply his strength. Hm, maybe a tie, and I'd probably end up taking a good nap - backrubs make me all calm and sleepy. If the particular Scout were to use all his strength, he'd probably end up hurting me more than anything else, so he'd lose points there.

The third and final objective would be cuddling. The Scout would likely be brawny enough to hug me close and keep me safe and comfy, but so would an Imperial Guard Veteran or Stormtrooper, and the latter two would probably, again, have more experience.

Hm, the Scout's superior strength may actually be a disadvantage in this contest, especially seeing as he'd just be learning to use his newfound strength and so may end up harming me more than anything else. The Veteran and Stormtrooper would both possess enough strength, but have learned how to use it best given their years of experience.

Gotta give it to the Veterans or Stormtroopers.

You sir are my hero may the dice gods bless you with luck and courage.

However I think your forgetting the "snuggle" gland that Space Marines have implanted as part of the space marine makeover they all recieve. This gland allows the space marine to snuggle at maxium efficiency with out his arm falling asleep under his partner. They truly are super human

Your prayer to the dice gods was not in vain. Tonight, the friendly Space Marines I was fighting with my Eldar were dealt crippling blows. My two squads of Banshees cleared enemy troops from their held objectives without suffering so much as a single casualty, as the enemy were slaughtered before they could act. My Dark Reaper Exarch personally claimed the lives of an entire 8-man Assault Squad, 6 Tactical Marines, and an unknown number of another Assault Squad, even as his whole squad each took a krak missile for him. My Banshees are closing in on the remaining humans, eager for vengeance for the two Dire Avengers squads, the Fire Dragons squad, and the four Dark Reapers who have all fallen in an ultimately pointless battle between friend and ally. Victory is near, as only a handful of the humans remain alive.

:: snaps out of it ::

Hmm, I hadn't heard of this snuggle gland. It may indeed prove to increase their potency in the ultimate contest of snuggletime.

1. I was using the IG vet, assumed everyone would be reading from the beginning and would know we are comparing vets or stormtroopers to scouts. I went with vets since its more of a fair fight. Stormtroopers would have slaughtered the scouts, being the best of the best the guard has to offer. Also the 15 hours you refer to is a book called 15 hours This was the expected lifespan of a new guardsman on a ork controlled world. Not he average lifespan of a regular guardsman. Good book, suggest you read it if you haven't already. http://www.amazon.com/Fifteen-Hours-Warhammer-40-000/dp/1844162311

2. Close combat was comparing skill vs skill. So their WS was both 3. Hence Equally skilled.

3.Vets are BS 4. Scouts BS 3. 4>3. Hence Vets have better accuracy

4. Personal experience is alot better then using a guide. Example, putting together a model for the first time. Sure you have the guide, but once you actually know how its done the next one you build is a lot faster.

5. Bolters being better are covered in equipment. As is the scouts being tougher faster and stronger being covered in attributes. Really its making me think you guys just skipped to the end.

6. Fluff wise it depends on who writes it. Matt ward would have scouts owning every time hands down. While on the other hand someone like dan abnett would have the IG Win. So i've been using the stat line as a guide line for how they'd would be in "real life"

DeathReaper wrote:Please do not misquote me. Not really sure where you got that quote from, but I never said that in the Orange up there...

No idea how your name slipped in there, it's fixed now with the person who actually said it. Sorry! :(

Phototoxin wrote:Scout - everyone keeps saying the IG have 'more experience' - the scout has the codex astartes, remember that IG combat doctrines can be a bit backwards. The scout has superior traiing, technology, equipment and skills. He is hypno-indoctrinated (think neo in the matrix ... 'I know kung-fu!') with tons of knowledge and wisdom. He knows no fear. I'm not saying the vets would be push overs but the scouts would probably have them for breakfast

Elector wrote:I get *some* IG special warriors can have a lot of experience, but I can never get that argument that they'd have that more experience than a Scout. (The Imperial Guard isn't a career for long, full lives. 10 years is a pretty darn long time to be in active duty, and still be alive)

Storm Troopers and IG Veterans are bound to have way more experience based on how they got where they are. The former literally had decades of training, conditioning and battle simulations starting right in their childhood, and the latter must have obviously seen enough real combat and survived to be called "vets". I really wouldn't compare them to ordinary Guardsmen, which I think is happening here.

And yes, IG combat doctrines can be a bit backwards. Very much depending on the regiment and the commander in charge. The Storm Trooper regiment is a huge exception from this - they don't even fight like a "proper" regiment, instead specializing in deep infiltration and support/specops missions. Also, there's a huge difference between wisdom and (technologically induced) knowledge. What kind of "wisdom" does a freshly inducted Marine Scout who still remembers his time as a feral warrior with spear and bow have? Not as much as a true veteran, I'd wager - regardless of said vet being a Marine or a Guardsman.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

5. Bolters being better are covered in equipment. As is the scouts being tougher faster and stronger being covered in attributes. Really its making me think you guys just skipped to the end.

6. Fluff wise it depends on who writes it. Matt ward would have scouts owning every time hands down. While on the other hand someone like dan abnett would have the IG Win. So i've been using the stat line as a guide line for how they'd would be in "real life"

My point with the gear and close combat is that the attributes and weapons directly affect their success in other groupings. If you're stronger, tougher, and faster, and can spit a highly caustic blinding acid-poison into their eyes, how do you lose in close combat, assuming neither has special weapons? Same if you've better ranged weapons.

Rules don't give as clear an idea of the unit's capabilities (balance terms and such, can't have a scout equal to regular marines in some stats or they'd only use them), hence going by fluff. I don't know about you, but I don't think it would only be Mat Ward who would write the scouts as winning.

(And I read the book, that's where I got it from. Having just re-read the passage, I forgot it was about specifically for Broucheroc. My bad there. But I still can't help but feel like the Scouts would still succeed. Sure ST's are the best of the best of the guard, but the Astartes are something else entirely, even for Scouts. You forget all they're missing from full battle-brothers at their peak is the Black Carapace, and thus only the Power Armor)

Astartes or no Astartes, I'd wager a hit from a bolt weapon or a hellgun will both take you out (welcome to the 41st Millennium, where weapon power is determined by how many times a single shot could kill a person over again). It may well come down to who shoots first, which is where I at least think it possible that simple experience and a whole life of training may give STs an edge over some Scout newb.

Just my two shells, of course. I could see it swing either way, hence my earlier opinion that it may depend on the environment.

A vet with a normal lasgun will have a harder time, though ... unless he manages a headshot!

People forget Scouts aren't mere "newbs". They've been training almost constantly for a decade. AND the implants.

The weapon would take either out, but a Scout could fight for up to 2 weeks without any sleep/rest.

Not to mention superior vision and reflexes. I still think they would play a pretty major role in a shoot-out (A scout could go from longer range, and aim as well, or he could attack at night, where his low-light vision would pay off)

A whole life of combat effectiveness with a human lifespan is 20 years, at max (assuming you start at around 10, to 30, when your body isn't as fit as it used to be). Space marines live for centuries, a Scout would be at a MINIMUM be training for a decade. And have the physical capabilities of a human at their absolute peak throughout. By the time a ST's vast experience is enough, their body will start lagging behind. (More than a decade and a bit puts them in their twenties, but that might not be enough. If you expect them to thoroughly trounce the Scout, they'd have to be another 5 years beyond that to make it count. That puts them in the 30's, by then time and the stress of war will hurt them more than help them).

ST's are very human, and if they're that experienced, enough to overcome all of the Scout's advantages, war will take its toll.

Elector wrote:People forget Scouts aren't mere "newbs". They've been training almost constantly for a decade. AND the implants.

Isn't "being a Scout" their training? I thought this stuff would run simultaneously/parallel to each other. Do they really only enter "Scout-hood" at the age of ~25?

I'm not too versed with Marine training programs, so it could well be that I was talking BS in that regard.

Elector wrote:ST's are very human, and if they're that experienced, enough to overcome all of the Scout's advantages, war will take its toll.

That is quite true, the attrition rate in the Storm Trooper regiment is very high. The 2E dex had cool rules to represent this - a typical ST squad was basically a mix of fresh recruits and veterans. It's a constant rotation of new people joining a unit whilst old ones die, with few badass exceptions.

Just pointing out that the more important units, such as Storm Trooper Regiments may be able to receive rejuvenation treatments to keep them at their peak.

Lynata wrote:

Elector wrote:People forget Scouts aren't mere "newbs". They've been training almost constantly for a decade. AND the implants.

Isn't "being a Scout" their training? I thought this stuff would run simultaneously/parallel to each other. Do they really only enter "Scout-hood" at the age of ~25?

I'm not too versed with Marine training programs, so it could well be that I was talking BS in that regard.

Elector wrote:ST's are very human, and if they're that experienced, enough to overcome all of the Scout's advantages, war will take its toll.

That is quite true, the attrition rate in the Storm Trooper regiment is very high. The 2E dex had cool rules to represent this - a typical ST squad was basically a mix of fresh recruits and veterans. It's a constant rotation of new people joining a unit whilst old ones die, with few badass exceptions.

Yes. For the ten or so years of Scout-hood they are training. Constantly.

In full war.

They would enter full-Astartes at the age of 20-ish, they start as Scouts at the age of 10-ish (fluff I have on me is vague about that).

(Granted, I am assuming these aren't Scouts who were just picked, as then, to make things equal, the ST wouldn't have trained either. So it's two angry 10-year olds wailing on each other.)

Scouts are the new guys, or as people with low iqs say newbs (hate that word) Its their training period they spend as scouts. Via lexacanum

Scouts are the new recruits of a Space Marine chapter who have advanced far enough in their training and biological transformation that have begun to take part in battle with the rest of the Chapter.

So while they may have been in training since 10ish, they probually will not actually be put into battle until 15 or 16. My guess here, for the implants have to have time to be... well implanted.

Again, since they are the recruits first going into battle, they will have theoretical knowledge of how to fight. Vets and ST, will have practical experience on how to fight.

I will concede the scouts will have a fighting chance against the vets. However, with the superior training and experience of a sstormtrooper, plus the superior weapons they have, would wipe the floor with the scouts.

wib wrote:Having read many books where bolt rounds go right through power armour, I don't think carapace armour is going to stop them.

Also, don't the fight for decades as scouts before being elevated to full battle brother? If so they could easily have more experience as well as most of the physical advantages marines have.

This. Plus only the best humans possible are suited to become a scout. ST and Vets aren't so picky, there's just a lot of training.

They have equivalent weaponry at worst.

Sources seem to differ on when they start their training. Most books I've read (James Swallow's Blood Angel books and the BA codex, the books I have on hand) indicate there is a year spent "under" as the genetic modification does its work, vastly increasing their physical capabilities. Then they train. Then Lexicanum says they are getting their implants all along. So I'm not sure, but they're sure to not have such a small amount of training before becoming a full battle-brother. You don't become a Scout based on anything but merit. Then you become the pinnacle of humanity.

And as I explained earlier, for the experience to overcome all the other advantages a Scout has, they would be well past their prime.

I doubt chemical life-enhancers would be common for soldiers in the IG (even ST's) given their large numbers and lack of importance of the individual. Maybe a prosthetic limb, but given the rate of deaths.... well, war as an un-augmented human in the Imperium isn't good for the health.

Not exactly. Just because you're physically strong doesn't mean you can become a Scout if you suffer from implant rejection. The ones that do become Scouts are the ones that survive the screening process, implantation, and then Scout duty.

Another thing to point out is that just because a Scout gets his Black Carapace at around age 19, it doesn't mean he immediately leaves the 10th Company. I'm sure all the Scout Sergeants are veteran marines who have forsaken the normal progression to train recruits.

Aspirants who make it to the "Scout" stage have not only passed the "Provings", as befits the nature of the homeworld and the Chapter in question, but have undergone implantation of most of the organs and glands that converts a normal human male into a Space Marine. This is not an overnight process.

Most planets from which Space Marine Chapters recruit have some sort of "Circus Maximus" or other contest, which is almost always lethal to the losers, in order to select those who may attempt to become Space Marines. The children selected to begin the training are already battle-trained and battle-experienced. They're certainly not some Boy Scout selected because he helps old ladies across the street and cleaned up a public park.

Psienesis wrote:Aspirants who make it to the "Scout" stage have not only passed the "Provings", as befits the nature of the homeworld and the Chapter in question, but have undergone implantation of most of the organs and glands that converts a normal human male into a Space Marine. This is not an overnight process.

Most planets from which Space Marine Chapters recruit have some sort of "Circus Maximus" or other contest, which is almost always lethal to the losers, in order to select those who may attempt to become Space Marines. The children selected to begin the training are already battle-trained and battle-experienced. They're certainly not some Boy Scout selected because he helps old ladies across the street and cleaned up a public park.

Exactly. They are usually so exceptional that at ten years old, even before the chapter finds them, they can call themselves veterans and warriors.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Aspirants who make it to the "Scout" stage have not only passed the "Provings", as befits the nature of the homeworld and the Chapter in question, but have undergone implantation of most of the organs and glands that converts a normal human male into a Space Marine. This is not an overnight process.

Most planets from which Space Marine Chapters recruit have some sort of "Circus Maximus" or other contest, which is almost always lethal to the losers, in order to select those who may attempt to become Space Marines. The children selected to begin the training are already battle-trained and battle-experienced. They're certainly not some Boy Scout selected because he helps old ladies across the street and cleaned up a public park.

Exactly. They are usually so exceptional that at ten years old, even before the chapter finds them, they can call themselves veterans and warriors.

I'd take an accomplished special ops Vet experienced in the use of modern tactics and armaments, over the biggest, strongest, and smartest neanderthal everyday of the week.

CpatTom wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Aspirants who make it to the "Scout" stage have not only passed the "Provings", as befits the nature of the homeworld and the Chapter in question, but have undergone implantation of most of the organs and glands that converts a normal human male into a Space Marine. This is not an overnight process.

Most planets from which Space Marine Chapters recruit have some sort of "Circus Maximus" or other contest, which is almost always lethal to the losers, in order to select those who may attempt to become Space Marines. The children selected to begin the training are already battle-trained and battle-experienced. They're certainly not some Boy Scout selected because he helps old ladies across the street and cleaned up a public park.

Exactly. They are usually so exceptional that at ten years old, even before the chapter finds them, they can call themselves veterans and warriors.

I'd take an accomplished special ops Vet experienced in the use of modern tactics and armaments, over the biggest, strongest, and smartest neanderthal everyday of the week.

Except the scouts are more experienced better trained and augmented and chosen much, much, MUCH more selectively.

Also, if you read Sons of Dorn, these ten year old kids who hadn't even been scouted yet were rampaging through experienced knights in full armour.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:...Again, since they are the recruits first going into battle, they will have theoretical knowledge of how to fight. Vets and ST, will have practical experience on how to fight.

I will concede the scouts will have a fighting chance against the vets. However, with the superior training and experience of a sstormtrooper, plus the superior weapons they have, would wipe the floor with the scouts.

#1 Scouts are battle trained, they have much experience, probably the same amount as the Vets for the guard.

#2 The weapons scouts have are superior, not the other way around, Scouts can carry a missile launcher or Heavy Bolter, and their Boltguns are all very lethal.