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From the fluff, who would win in 1v1 or 10v10 fight.
Both sides are wearing Carapace/Scout Armour to prevent bolt rounds from punching right through the Guardsmen
Combat Conditions, not arena combat.
Will there be any particular environment that would favour one over the other?


I think Guardsmen would have more experience after fighting for 20+ years, since Scouts IIRC are only about 14-18 years old.

Nah, scouts take it all the way. IIRC, to be a scout, you've already got enough experience and training to be considered combat ready, by SM standards. Also, are Space Wolf scouts allowed at this party?

Having read many books where bolt rounds go right through power armour, I don't think carapace armour is going to stop them.

Also, don't the fight for decades as scouts before being elevated to full battle brother? If so they could easily have more experience as well as most of the physical advantages marines have.

Not arena combat? Depends highly on the environment, then. I see the Marine Scout as having a big advantage thanks to his genetic modifications, but a veteran Guardsman/Storm Trooper knowing the area may be able to simply overwhelm him with some trick, even without weapons.

I mean, did you hear what Colonel Straken did to a Night Lords Chaos Lord? Strangling him to death. With a fething root. I kid you not.

Lynata wrote:Not arena combat? Depends highly on the environment, then. I see the Marine Scout as having a big advantage thanks to his genetic modifications, but a veteran Guardsman/Storm Trooper knowing the area may be able to simply overwhelm him with some trick, even without weapons.

I mean, did you hear what Colonel Straken did to a Night Lords Chaos Lord? Strangling him to death. With a fething root. I kid you not.

Woah, woah, woah. Source? Straken may be a badass, but I don't think he could take down a CSM with a root.

Scouts are NOT noobs.

Most are individualistic soldiers who cannot stand the front line rigidity.

Ditto for the IG.

The scouts do have the stats and genetic material, but the vets have survived despite all that......I play IG, but I think the SM scouts win.

First off, this matchup isn't quite right. An IG veteran and an IG Stormtrooper are *NOT* the same thing. Lets use the Stormtrooper here.

If you're comparing a Storm Trooper to an SM scout, in a fist fight the scout's going to win because his body is already all hulked out, in a general combat situation, the Storm Trooper will probably win out due to superior training (remember, a Scout is still in training and generating all his genetic modifications still, doesn't shoot as well, etc) and experience (having been in combat training since birth amongst the most grueling training regime outside the Astartes, and is basically the best thing out there after a Space Marine in terms of human soldiers)

sfshilo wrote:Scouts are NOT noobs.

Most are individualistic soldiers who cannot stand the front line rigidity.

Ditto for the IG.

The scouts do have the stats and genetic material, but the vets have survived despite all that......I play IG, but I think the SM scouts win.

SM Scouts actually are Novice Space Marines.

Stormtrooper would beat Scout.

I would imagine that a guard veteran squad would cut down a marine scout squad, any day of the week.

that extra 10-15 years of combat training will have them working as a team, to catch the scouts off guard and kill them.

One of the main advantages I always saw to space marines was their long lifespan, along with greater vitality. That long life span gives them experience, and skill way beyond what a normal man could ever achieve.

The scouts don't have that experience; They are basically just stronger, tougher guardsmen, who have been through a significantly more rigorous basic training course.

Coolyo294 wrote:Woah, woah, woah. Source? Straken may be a badass, but I don't think he could take down a CSM with a root.

Codex Planetstrike, the "Glorious Assaults" section. In all fairness, it was a poisonous root - but still, quite a feat, and goes to show how veteran Guardsmen who know the area may make use of that knowledge..

Catachan Bites Back - 972.M41
Chaos Lord Ratathrax of the Night Lords invades Catachan. Sending vast anti-plant barrages onto the planet, Rarathrax robs the Catachan Imperial Guard of their most natural defence before systematically bombing their bastion networks into rubble. Ratathrax makes planetfall to enjoy the butchery first hand. Unfortunately for him, Colonel Straken, lying in ambush in a quagmire of toxic sludge, waits for Ratathrax to remove his helmet before throttling him with a poisonous barb-root.

Straken is badass indeed.

The scouts win due to their 3+ cover save from the cover they are in and the camo cloaks they wear.

If it's a Catachan veteran, then I give it to the Guardsman. Otherwise, the Space Marine Scout gets my vote. That's just where I would place betting money, mind you. I'd still be pretty uncomfortable wagering on the outcome.

well if we are talking shooting, I would say the storm troops because their hotshot lasguns and their ranged training. The hotshot can go right through power armor so it would melt a scout. If we are talking a knock out drag out street brawl a scout would win because of the genetic mutations that they have.

STs win due to better equipment and experience

theman99808 wrote:well if we are talking shooting, I would say the storm troops because their hotshot lasguns and their ranged training. The hotshot can go right through power armor so it would melt a scout. If we are talking a knock out drag out street brawl a scout would win because of the genetic mutations that they have.

Hotshot lasguns do not go through the scouts 3+ cover save.

acekevin8412 wrote:Combat Conditions, not arena combat.
Will there be any particular environment that would favour one over the other?

Depends on what combat conditions really.

also hinges on what equipment they have at their disposal.

Vets can take camo cloaks too

Your argument is invalid

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120157/

This issue has already been answered by Kurt Russell.

Thanks for all the responses everyone.
After checking the Lexicanum, I'm going to clarify some of the parameters of the question.

According to the lex, a marine is a full marine when they receive the black carapace implant at around 18 years old. While scout sergeants are undoubtedly more experienced, the question is going to focus on just initiates. For the squad combat, the squad is led by a sergeant.

Next, the topic of battle circumstances. Under what conditions would the IG Vets/STs win, and under what conditions would scouts win.

Conditions encompass the environment and equipment available.

For a control test, I suggest an open field with both sides within optimal firing range of their weapons. Vets w/ lasguns and Scouts w/ bolters or bolt pistol/ccw.

acekevin8412 wrote:
According to the lex, a marine is a full marine when they receive the black carapace implant at around 18 years old.

Where'd you find this?

Imagine a stormtrooper. But geneseed in him. Learn him how to outflank and do Space Marine stuff. There you go, one scout for you, sir.

thenoobbomb wrote:Imagine a stormtrooper. But geneseed in him. Learn him how to outflank and do Space Marine stuff. There you go, one scout for you, sir.

A storm trooper not only knows how to outflank, he also deep strikes. He is a better marksman than a scout too and tend to have better weapons.

acekevin8412 wrote:Next, the topic of battle circumstances. Under what conditions would the IG Vets/STs win, and under what conditions would scouts win. Conditions encompass the environment and equipment available.

Open field will favour the Scout. Even if his opponents are more experienced, he may soak a number of hits from a lasgun depending on where he is hit. A hellgun may take him out in one shot, but I wouldn't bet on it. A bolt weapon hit, however, will at least neutralize even a Storm Trooper or IG Vet. They are still only human.

That said, if there's cover (a forest or urban environment), advantage shifts to the Vet/ST, as their weapons will have more ammunition and thus prevail in a prolonged fire exchange. Experience will prevail here. Furthermore, cover would negate the Marine's ability to charge into close combat, where he would easily overpower a human. As long as it's not someone like Straken or Harker.

thenoobbomb wrote:Imagine a stormtrooper. But geneseed in him. Learn him how to outflank and do Space Marine stuff. There you go, one scout for you, sir.

Not quite. Imperial Guard Storm Troopers are schooled from childhood in military tactics and weapon drills, and will have way over a decade of training under their belts even before graduating the Schola Progenium. Where do the average Marine Chapters recruit from? Feral worlds? When young barbarians become Aspirants they'll have a couple years of knowing how to throw spears and "beat people up" and that's about it. After their initiation, hypno-Indoctrination will negate part of this by flash-training, but imho, proper experience cannot be replaced but needs to be earned. Not to mention that many Space Marine Chapters have a culture favoring a brute force approach (doubtlessly fitting both to their homeworld's history as well as the general "shock and awe" modus operandi of the Astartes) over the kind of tactical finesse the Storm Troopers are known for. That said, this will depend heavily on the individual Chapter in question.

Essentially, a Storm Trooper will possess much more training and knowledge, whereas a fresh Scout will sport genetically-engineered superior physique. Both are advantages, but it will take the Scout some time until he can catch up to the ST's experience and enjoy the benefits of both ... at which point he'll likely make the transition to a fully-fledged Marine.

thenoobbomb wrote:Imagine a stormtrooper. But geneseed in him. Learn him how to outflank and do Space Marine stuff. There you go, one scout for you, sir.

We'll have to imagine him without a life-long brutal training regime from birth, the extensive years of combat experience since adolescence, intimate familiarity with technology, air drop capabilities, etc.

And a Stormtrooper is more than capable if infiltrating and outflanking.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:
According to the lex, a marine is a full marine when they receive the black carapace implant at around 18 years old.

Where'd you find this?

I found it here.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.TozClN6Ik8k

It seems the first hand source came from a WD though.

Lordraymond wrote:Vets can take camo cloaks too

Your argument is invalid

Point being Hotshot lasguns do not deny the marines a 3+ cover save.

It still hinges on the exact combat situation.

I was under the impression this was a fluff battle.

3+ cover saves have no place here.

Storm Troopers; better BS, can have move through cover and scouts, hotshot lasguns can punch through scout armor.

They both can have the same cover save, but if they hit open fields, ST have a 4+ armor, scouts got nothing. Alternatively, deep strike them with flamers.

If this is a straight-on Fluff Battle....

.... depends on who's fluff you're reading. Are these FluffMarines from the SupermanSpecialMarines Chapter? Or are these Regular Joes Marines from the Badass-but-not-Perfect Marines Chapter?

In the former case, the Marine wins, automatically. He'll get his carapace shot through half a dozen times from the ST's hellgun, be grievously wounded, pushing his implants to their limits... and then kill the ST in close combat with a space-spork or something.

In the latter case? Well, the SM will still probably win, because it's an SM, though I would give the Stormtrooper even odds. Regular IG? No way in hell.

Pen≥Sword wrote:I was under the impression this was a fluff battle.

3+ cover saves have no place here.

In that case the Marines would win.

They would make the use of cover if they find themselves outgunned while they advance and get into melee combat where the Stormtroopers do not have much of a chance.