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Psienesis wrote:

God , this is a 40k hobby forum and yet from what I can tell. Almost no one has their fluff facts straight.

Because it's all canon, and none of it is. There is no "correct" fluff fact when it comes to Chaos, and no definite proof that general violence, or generalized pleasure, or just having the common cold, or thinking maybe you'll change coats before you go out tonight is in some way feeding the Ruinous Powers.

Lots of people like to think this but... it doesn't hold up. There was change before there was Tzeentch, violence before there was Khorne, pleasure and depravity before there was Slaanesh (who is not a Human god, in any event), and disease before there was Nurgle.

Am I to believe that only Humans can understand fatalism when faced with an inescapable fate? In all the galaxy, the only one to glorify and engage in wanton violence is the race of Man? That humans are somehow more precious than Eldar to Slaanesh, who was created by the Eldar? That the hubris of humanity is the greatest source of power to Tzeentch?

Please. It doesn't even make internal sense to the universe.

Couldn't you wait for me to post my argument before you create a rebuttal?

Let me begin again:

The gods of Chaos are powered by emotions and concepts not faith. Humanity was fully believing in science during the DAoT, this didn't kill the gods of Chaos. Currently, humanity is the gods main food source cause humanity other than the Orks have the largest population in the 40k galaxy who are also psychic. Now humanity didn't create the Chaos gods, they are the result of a messed up warp caused by the 'War in heaven' that has only gotten worse as more and more races have come to existence and conflict with themselves and each other. All the various emotions, concepts etc float into the warp and the strongest which are the bad/strong emotions/souls coalesce to form warp beings who embody these aspects ad seek to create more and more of the feelings that created them and thus was born the gods of chaos and their daemons. Independent daemons were created from other emotions/souls etc or at different times.

These beings rising in the middle ages could just be coincidence due to stuff happening in other parts of the galaxy by other races than to human history at the time which was the middle ages. It could also be that while the gods were formed by the fault of everyone, humanity played a small but important role in bringing them to sentience, its up to your personal opinion to decide. Also just because these gods represent these various emotions/actions doesn't mean they created them. They were brought into existence by these actions and thats why they embody them.

Finally, time has very little meaning in the area of the warp where the gods lie. At the moment the gods of chaos were born, it came to pass that they have always existed due to weird warp temporal mechanics.

Depends on how it didn't happen. Angron still would have had to been dealt with no matter what.

They wouldnt exist because there wouldnt be the 40k franchise!
Well, seriously, if the Emperor's project works the IoM would be dominating the galaxy, the marines and the armies would still have to deal with Necrons and Nids, but with superior leadership (Emperor and Primarchs), better technology (more STC patterns would be recovered and less technology would be lost) and a more unified strength of arms the IoM would be in a much better shape.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Um, no? The very wars the Emperor waged, the tactics he used, the celebrations afterwards, they all empowered the gods.

Everything a person does powers Chaos. Even the Tau do so when they wage war cause blood is spilled.

God , this is a 40k hobby forum and yet from what I can tell. Almost no one has their fluff facts straight.

Here is a quick lesson that I will expand on later(I 'm late for class):

The gods of Chaos are powered by emotions and concepts not faith. Humanity was fully believing in science during the DAoT, this didn't kill the gods of Chaos. Currently, humanity is the gods main food source cause humanity is other than the Orks is the largest population in the 40k galaxy who are also psychic.

Then why Emperor planed to starve them by making all Humans atheist?
And how is he getting all his powers now? ( answer: because Humans pray to him and thus giving him strength )

Asherian Command wrote:There would be politically stability it wouldn't be grimdark anymore.

I don't know about that, the Imperium was pretty darn 'grim dark facists' prior to the Heresey.

Brother Coa wrote:
Then why Emperor planed to starve them by making all Humans atheist?
And how is he getting all his powers now? ( answer: because Humans pray to him and thus giving him strength )

And were going to take the words of daemons who say that the Empis weakened them through this idea of his? We're going to trust the Emps public speeches to discern what the hell he's planning? The Emp is at heart a manipulator, we will only finally learn the truth when a novel features the Emp and his inner thoughts. Anything else is but outside characters with flawed and biased pov when it comes to the Emp and his views.

You are correct about the Emp getting powers from the belief of the people but the gods don't operate on the same principle as he does.

Maniac_nmt wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:There would be politically stability it wouldn't be grimdark anymore.

I don't know about that, the Imperium was pretty darn 'grim dark facists' prior to the Heresey.

Everyone in 40k is fascist in one degree or another. So whats your point?

Durza wrote:Um, no? The very wars the Emperor waged, the tactics he used, the celebrations afterwards, they all empowered the gods.

Khorne is the god of blood, and holds dominion over hate, rage, violence, and bloodshed.. the Space Marines (pre-heresy, anyway) didn't kill out of hate or love of violence, but in service to the emperor and the goal of unifying mankind etc.. so it wouldn't have empowered Khorne..

Brother Coa wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Um, no? The very wars the Emperor waged, the tactics he used, the celebrations afterwards, they all empowered the gods.

Everything a person does powers Chaos. Even the Tau do so when they wage war cause blood is spilled.

God , this is a 40k hobby forum and yet from what I can tell. Almost no one has their fluff facts straight.

Here is a quick lesson that I will expand on later(I 'm late for class):

The gods of Chaos are powered by emotions and concepts not faith. Humanity was fully believing in science during the DAoT, this didn't kill the gods of Chaos. Currently, humanity is the gods main food source cause humanity is other than the Orks is the largest population in the 40k galaxy who are also psychic.

Then why Emperor planed to starve them by making all Humans atheist?
And how is he getting all his powers now? ( answer: because Humans pray to him and thus giving him strength )

Oh... I always thought it was thousands of psykers sacrificed to keep him going each day.

And 40k I think was grimdark preheresy setting too. The mention of earth as a wasteland, all the forge planets, hive worlds and so on. Aside from the whole "Worship the Emprah heathen humans!" part we have now it sounds akin to what we have now. Plus the whole bureaucracy was starting too with the high lords.

The thousand-psykers-a-day thing is just to keep the Astronomican lit. It's cheaper than finding another bulb, since no one can remember the part number or wattage.

Psienesis wrote:The thousand-psykers-a-day thing is just to keep the Astronomican lit. It's cheaper than finding another bulb, since no one can remember the part number or wattage.

Damn the decline in technology over ten thousand years!

Psienesis wrote:The thousand-psykers-a-day thing is just to keep the Astronomican lit. It's cheaper than finding another bulb, since no one can remember the part number or wattage.

I like this. Its funny.

No, that's to sustain the Emperor. The Astronomicon guys are like monks but they do burn out after a few months.

Just a thought. Since the Nids are attracted by the Astronmicons beacon would the nids have come for us? Swear i read somewhere that the Nids were drifting in another direction when they caught wind of the Astronomicon. If i recall correctly the astronomican would not be needed since we had the webway.

Yes, that's true. They may have come anyway but I guess they wouldn't need the Astronomicon. Who's to say if humans ever would have gotten into the webway though. Eldar aren't going to give that up without a fight.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, that's true. They may have come anyway but I guess they wouldn't need the Astronomicon. Who's to say if humans ever would have gotten into the webway though. Eldar aren't going to give that up without a fight.

I thought we had a human made sector cordoned off. Unless it was the Astronomicon that shielded the man-made web-way.
o edit: No the Emperor shielded it via the Throne so i don't think the Astronomicon would have been used. May have had a Hive fleet reach us but we may have been spared the bulk of the Nids.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

God , this is a 40k hobby forum and yet from what I can tell. Almost no one has their fluff facts straight.

Because it's all canon, and none of it is. There is no "correct" fluff fact when it comes to Chaos, and no definite proof that general violence, or generalized pleasure, or just having the common cold, or thinking maybe you'll change coats before you go out tonight is in some way feeding the Ruinous Powers.

Lots of people like to think this but... it doesn't hold up. There was change before there was Tzeentch, violence before there was Khorne, pleasure and depravity before there was Slaanesh (who is not a Human god, in any event), and disease before there was Nurgle.

Am I to believe that only Humans can understand fatalism when faced with an inescapable fate? In all the galaxy, the only one to glorify and engage in wanton violence is the race of Man? That humans are somehow more precious than Eldar to Slaanesh, who was created by the Eldar? That the hubris of humanity is the greatest source of power to Tzeentch?

Please. It doesn't even make internal sense to the universe.

Couldn't you wait for me to post my argument before you create a rebuttal?

Let me begin again:

The gods of Chaos are powered by emotions and concepts not faith. Humanity was fully believing in science during the DAoT, this didn't kill the gods of Chaos. Currently, humanity is the gods main food source cause humanity other than the Orks have the largest population in the 40k galaxy who are also psychic. Now humanity didn't create the Chaos gods, they are the result of a messed up warp caused by the 'War in heaven' that has only gotten worse as more and more races have come to existence and conflict with themselves and each other. All the various emotions, concepts etc float into the warp and the strongest which are the bad/strong emotions/souls coalesce to form warp beings who embody these aspects ad seek to create more and more of the feelings that created them and thus was born the gods of chaos and their daemons. Independent daemons were created from other emotions/souls etc or at different times.

These beings rising in the middle ages could just be coincidence due to stuff happening in other parts of the galaxy by other races than to human history at the time which was the middle ages. It could also be that while the gods were formed by the fault of everyone, humanity played a small but important role in bringing them to sentience, its up to your personal opinion to decide. Also just because these gods represent these various emotions/actions doesn't mean they created them. They were brought into existence by these actions and thats why they embody them.

Finally, time has very little meaning in the area of the warp where the gods lie. At the moment the gods of chaos were born, it came to pass that they have always existed due to weird warp temporal mechanics.

Um, yeah, there's still a reason as to why the Emperor wanted humanity to become a race devoid of all religion, because faith empowered the Chaos Gods. Like it or not, that's an immutable fact of the universe. If bloodshed and depravity solely fueled the Dark Gods then they wouldn't have started the Heresy in the first place, they'd have just left the Emperor to get on with his plans and concentrated with the going on in the Warp. It's rare that the Chaos Gods unite under a common purpose, and even if it were just a fleeting moment in the infinite time-span of the Warp, it was important enough to warrant the attention of their combined power.

They would be placed in stasis to be ready to fight any other wars the Imperium needs to wage.

Vermillion wrote:
And 40k I think was grimdark preheresy setting too. The mention of earth as a wasteland, all the forge planets, hive worlds and so on. Aside from the whole "Worship the Emprah heathen humans!" part we have now it sounds akin to what we have now. Plus the whole bureaucracy was starting too with the high lords.

Yes it was a hellhole caused by the disaster known as the Age of Strife. Your point?

iproxtaco wrote:
Um, yeah, there's still a reason as to why the Emperor wanted humanity to become a race devoid of all religion, because faith empowered the Chaos Gods. Like it or not, that's an immutable fact of the universe. If bloodshed and depravity solely fueled the Dark Gods then they wouldn't have started the Heresy in the first place, they'd have just left the Emperor to get on with his plans and concentrated with the going on in the Warp. It's rare that the Chaos Gods unite under a common purpose, and even if it were just a fleeting moment in the infinite time-span of the Warp, it was important enough to warrant the attention of their combined power.

The Chaos god Slaanesh was not formed through faith, no Eldar was praying to anyone at the time when they created Slaanesh. Slaanesh came about due to the hedonism of the Eldar which is emotions, souls, feelings. We have from the HH series two daemons who state contradictory things; one states that the Emperor Imperial Truth is starving them and another says its doing crap at all. Next if the Gods depended on faith of a galactic populace to fuel them otherwise they die, then who was praying to them prior to humanity going into space and expanding across the galaxy?

Who knows why the gods of Chaos wanted to feth with the Emperor? Maybe he had a plan later on that would hurt or kill the gods so they plan to derail him now before that happens.

Why would Tzeentch want to mess with someones plans?

CpatTom wrote:Why would Tzeentch want to mess with someones plans?

He's the patron deity of "For the lulz"?

That was rhetorical, but yeah, he must love those hackers.

It would probably be the IoM vs. the awakened Necrons.

With full strength legions, i think Orks and Tau would be held in check better and the Eldar would probably ally with the IoM because of this Golden Age to fight Chaos and Necrons.

Of note, no Sisters of Battle, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition or Imperial Guard as we know it in this timeline.

The stasis idea was a good one too, freeze 'em til you need 'em.

They probably would have filled the IG role as main fighting force of the IoM, and would have just gone about stomping on everyones faces,

I think it's unlikely they'd be put in stasis, even at the time of the heresy there was a lot more fighting to be done.
Like what Sigismund said, they'll have to continue their eternal battle to keep the IoM secure.
Tau would ideally be exterminated right away before they grow, Eldar would probably have to compromise with IoM because it has access to their precious webway, Chaos would be a more limited threat, but nids and crons still have to be dealt with.

The space marine would simply find a new enemy to kill. I'm sure orks, tyranids, necrons, and tau could all give them enough sport to never have to worry about being out of someone to fight.

BrainDeleted wrote:The whole point of this threat is that the Great Crusade would have been completed. Your argument is invalid. War may feed Khorne pretty nicely but the eventual goal was peace. Peace ≠ Good for Chaos. They stopped the Great Crusade for a reason.....

Yeah, because Horus killed the Emperor. What's your point?

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:The whole point of this threat is that the Great Crusade would have been completed. Your argument is invalid. War may feed Khorne pretty nicely but the eventual goal was peace. Peace ≠ Good for Chaos. They stopped the Great Crusade for a reason.....

Yeah, because Horus killed the Emperor. What's your point?

Horus crippled the Emperor, he failed to kill him. Now what is your post about again?

The Great Crusade would simply have steamrolled the galaxy.

With the primarchs alive and, more importantly, the Emperor alive, the government would not be corrupt and foul like it is now, and the Emperor's plan to "starve" the chaos gods would have worked. Without the Arch-enemy of man to contend with, they would simply trounce everything.

Also, considering the Eldar originally wanted peace but the first meeting was between them and a corrupted primarch, they may have been allies of the humans. With that much allied force, nothing in the galaxy would really be capable of standing before them.

They may even have the Tau on their side.

The only things in the galaxy that would even be mildly threatening would be Necrons and Tyranids, but with 100% of the Imperium, Eldar, and Tau ready to deploy, the Tyranids may very well be outnumbered.

I have waited looong time for a thread like this.

First of all, Wh40k would be less "grimdark". Here are the results of my brainstorm and fanmade writing.

After the galaxy was conquered be the Emperor, he saw the threat of Chaos. He understood that mankind needed to destroy its corrupting influence, for he had been told by Horus about the treasonous chaplain Erebus his son had executed after he tried to convert him to chaos. His citizens were already introduced to the Imperial Truth, freeing them from the chains of religion, and the Gods of Chaos were getting weaker and weaker, with no one left to hear their empty promises.

He made an agreement with the Eldar, that prevented the participants from attacking each other. He saw them as effective tools to aid mankind in its quest. He then proceeded to collect all the other remaining technological artefacts in order to make more effective warmachines and improve civilian things also, in the form of education, health care etc.

All was changed when the techpriests found a working STC from the Agri-world of Colthan. It had been partly buried under the ground, until a visiting Magos Biologis had spotted it. The Imperium experienced a technological revolution, achieving its zenite position once again. The Emperor's dream and great work were now complete, ready to return humankind to greatness once again.

With the help of the Eldar, the scientists of Terra prepared a mighty weapon to strike at the Eye of Terror itself. No one knew how such a weapon was made, the creators refusing to share their collective knowledge of the warp and immaterium. After the forces of order had banished the Daemons infesting the nearby Cadian system, a million mightiest psykers and Eldar Warlocks used the power of the weapon the weave a mighty spell, that shook the very planes of existence. This psychic blast sealed the Eye of Terror for eternity, closing the terrible rupture which threated all living things in the galaxy.

By this great victory, the Emperor had finally completed mankind's destiny, and allowed his race to prosper in the galaxy. The Orks were destroyed slowly but surely, Mankind eradicating the creation of the Old Ones with the help of Eldar, and thus ending the threat they possessed. The Eldar warned mankind of the Necrons, and they were never waken up from their eternal slumber. The Tyranids were repelled, after an excruciating war, which cost countless lives.

In the end, the mighty Astartes were not required to defend anymore, since no major threats existed in the galaxy. They became increasingly rare, their numbers dwindling over the millenia and finally becaming non-existent. Their ancient valor and glories won on distant battles became legends, passed from one generation to the next. The Imperial Guard took their place, and tried to take the example of these brave warriors to heart.

I know some things were pretty out there, but this is what I think would have happened.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have waited looong time for a thread like this.

First of all, Wh40k would be less "grimdark". Here are the results of my brainstorm and fanmade writing.

After the galaxy was conquered be the Emperor, he saw the threat of Chaos. He understood that mankind needed to destroy its corrupting influence, for he had been told by Horus about the treasonous chaplain Erebus his son had executed after he tried to convert him to chaos. His citizens were already introduced to the Imperial Truth, freeing them from the chains of religion, and the Gods of Chaos were getting weaker and weaker, with no one left to hear their empty promises.

He made an agreement with the Eldar, that prevented the participants from attacking each other. He saw them as effective tools to aid mankind in its quest. He then proceeded to collect all the other remaining technological artefacts in order to make more effective warmachines and improve civilian things also, in the form of education, health care etc.

All was changed when the techpriests found a working STC from the Agri-world of Colthan. It had been partly buried under the ground, until a visiting Magos Biologis had spotted it. The Imperium experienced a technological revolution, achieving its zenite position once again. The Emperor's dream and great work were now complete, ready to return humankind to greatness once again.

With the help of the Eldar, the scientists of Terra prepared a mighty weapon to strike at the Eye of Terror itself. No one knew how such a weapon was made, the creators refusing to share their collective knowledge of the warp and immaterium. After the forces of order had banished the Daemons infesting the nearby Cadian system, a million mightiest psykers and Eldar Warlocks used the power of the weapon the weave a mighty spell, that shook the very planes of existence. This psychic blast sealed the Eye of Terror for eternity, closing the terrible rupture which threated all living things in the galaxy.

By this great victory, the Emperor had finally completed mankind's destiny, and allowed his race to prosper in the galaxy. The Orks were destroyed slowly but surely, Mankind eradicating the creation of the Old Ones with the help of Eldar, and thus ending the threat they possessed. The Eldar warned mankind of the Necrons, and they were never waken up from their eternal slumber. The Tyranids were repelled, after an excruciating war, which cost countless lives.

In the end, the mighty Astartes were not required to defend anymore, since no major threats existed in the galaxy. They became increasingly rare, their numbers dwindling over the millenia and finally becaming non-existent. Their ancient valor and glories won on distant battles became legends, passed from one generation to the next. The Imperial Guard took their place, and tried to take the example of these brave warriors to heart.

I know some things were pretty out there, but this is what I think would have happened.

Sealing the EoT Would have destroyed the Imperium. The incidence of the navigator gene would become rarer, as would astropaths etc.

Destroy the gods=good.

Destroy the warp=bad.

Also, if there are roughly one million astartes and roughly one million planets, they may have become governors, governors who would live forever.

And they wouldn't become rare cause there would be primarchs...

Sorry for punching holes in your thing...I still like it