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CpatTom wrote:Note: contains theories and conjecture based off of logic and evidence.

Strong theories exist that the Orks have been around since the first time the Necron's were awake. They were the Korks (or some such nonsense then. Created alongside the Eldar by the Old Ones, etc), and while not definitive (because, well, it is 40k) its a strong enough link for me to entertain the idea that the Orks have had plenty of time to exist just about anywhere in time/space.

Edit: No hibernation, just the great game. Chaos cant be bothered with the ephemeral material realm when they have so much going on in the warp.
Eldar, more or less, created chaos as we understand it today being the first wide spread psychic race. Immaterium (original state of the warp) was peaceful and easily traveled. Old Ones created the Eldar who disturbed the Immaterium creating the warp state it is now.

I think of it as an ocean. One or two little swimmers dont change the ocean. An IoM of little swimmers all going different directions causes a mess of currents (The greatest of which, the ones with the most disturbances in their favor are the Chaos Gods). Now it is of little importance to a current who the swimmers are creating it, just as long as they keep doing what they are doing. At least thats how I get it.

Double Edit: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_Ones#.TpMJUJuIk8k Because google is hard to use.

the old ones were psykers to tho, not just the eldar.

Also, When they were originally created, they would have been under the close control of the old ones.

Also, against necrons at their prime, the orks wouldn't be winning...ever.

I seem to remember Horus talking to the mournival about after the crusade, giving it as a reason for him having a tutor.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:The whole point of this threat is that the Great Crusade would have been completed. Your argument is invalid. War may feed Khorne pretty nicely but the eventual goal was peace. Peace ≠ Good for Chaos. They stopped the Great Crusade for a reason.....

Yeah, because Horus killed the Emperor. What's your point?

Horus crippled the Emperor, he failed to kill him. Now what is your post about again?

I'd say that being a rotting corpse who can't exist without thousands being sacrificed is pretty damn dead. And I've bolded the relevant parts of the post, since evidently, you can't put two and two together to figure it out yourself.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vermillion wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Vermillion wrote:
And 40k I think was grimdark preheresy setting too. The mention of earth as a wasteland, all the forge planets, hive worlds and so on. Aside from the whole "Worship the Emprah heathen humans!" part we have now it sounds akin to what we have now. Plus the whole bureaucracy was starting too with the high lords.

Yes it was a hellhole caused by the disaster known as the Age of Strife. Your point?

Point being with the beginnings setting up it would still be a hell hole and grim dark "each person is but a cog in the IoM uncared for" and so on as it is now.

Except that the Imperium as it is today is entirely because the Emperor cannot rule. While he was ruling, it was an enlightened age.

The High Lords wouldn't be worth gak if they weren't the voice of the big E.

But as we the outside viewers of the mythos know, war was going to be never ending. Tyranids coming along chomping things, C'tan and their necron servants awakening to cull the galaxy, insurrections from those within the imperium for a variety of reasons, the amazing fungus that is orks (ork has that retcon been retconned? I have been ignoring fluff rewrites a lot). So the small narrow path the big E set humanity upon would require a lot of cogs in the machine. The galaxy is a big place, tithes still needed exacted, munitions made, food sorted out somehow, fuel. Thats a lot of planning on that scale so I think the big E would be delegating those tasks and we would have something akin to current 40k fluff.
The enlightening going on during the great crusade was more the unification of mankind (or they got slaughtered by astartes) and rediscovery of some of the technology lost in the age of darkness. Despite everything the IoM gained through it, I still think that while the Emperor would have noble intentions (or cold hearted aim depending on how you percieve it) for humanities survival those beneath him at for example govenor level wouldn't care if there slums in the hives, as long as quotas got filled and they had a nice life.
I have probably lost the point I was trying to make in the rambling hope someone sees it .

im2randomghgh wrote:The necrons are only just awakening tho...

There are many tales of IoM denizens stumbling into Necron tombs and waking up all kinds of unpleasantness. Do Orks ever go exploring caves or start digging just to see what is buried?

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The necrons are only just awakening tho...

There are many tales of IoM denizens stumbling into Necron tombs and waking up all kinds of unpleasantness. Do Orks ever go exploring caves or start digging just to see what is buried?

In which case the orks would be culled by the necrons. While the crons aren't so good on the TT, they are almost unstoppable in the fluff.

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The necrons are only just awakening tho...

There are many tales of IoM denizens stumbling into Necron tombs and waking up all kinds of unpleasantness. Do Orks ever go exploring caves or start digging just to see what is buried?

In which case the orks would be culled by the necrons. While the crons aren't so good on the TT, they are almost unstoppable in the fluff.

True dat. But, if the tomb is smallish and the fungal infection of the planet is kind of high I do not see the Boyz laying off until all the shiny bits stop wiggling.

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The necrons are only just awakening tho...

There are many tales of IoM denizens stumbling into Necron tombs and waking up all kinds of unpleasantness. Do Orks ever go exploring caves or start digging just to see what is buried?

In which case the orks would be culled by the necrons. While the crons aren't so good on the TT, they are almost unstoppable in the fluff.

True dat. But, if the tomb is smallish and the fungal infection of the planet is kind of high I do not see the Boyz laying off until all the shiny bits stop wiggling.

Well when they phase out on the TT you win. When they phase out in the fluff...they're back in five minutes. And their wrecks/dead teleport away.

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The necrons are only just awakening tho...

There are many tales of IoM denizens stumbling into Necron tombs and waking up all kinds of unpleasantness. Do Orks ever go exploring caves or start digging just to see what is buried?

In which case the orks would be culled by the necrons. While the crons aren't so good on the TT, they are almost unstoppable in the fluff.

True dat. But, if the tomb is smallish and the fungal infection of the planet is kind of high I do not see the Boyz laying off until all the shiny bits stop wiggling.

Well when they phase out on the TT you win. When they phase out in the fluff...they're back in five minutes. And their wrecks/dead teleport away.

They phase out most of the time according to the fluff. Bust the phasing recall bits and the wreck stays. So, smallish tomb, largish Ork population, limited inbound teleportation capabilities and we have a scenario for some serious lootage. That could make for a really fun novel. Also, the time frame for this scenario is very wide, about as long as the 'Crons have been dozing and the MekBoys have been loot'in in the same general vicinity.

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The necrons are only just awakening tho...

There are many tales of IoM denizens stumbling into Necron tombs and waking up all kinds of unpleasantness. Do Orks ever go exploring caves or start digging just to see what is buried?

In which case the orks would be culled by the necrons. While the crons aren't so good on the TT, they are almost unstoppable in the fluff.

True dat. But, if the tomb is smallish and the fungal infection of the planet is kind of high I do not see the Boyz laying off until all the shiny bits stop wiggling.

Well when they phase out on the TT you win. When they phase out in the fluff...they're back in five minutes. And their wrecks/dead teleport away.

They phase out most of the time according to the fluff. Bust the phasing recall bits and the wreck stays. So, smallish tomb, largish Ork population, limited inbound teleportation capabilities and we have a scenario for some serious lootage. That could make for a really fun novel. Also, the time frame for this scenario is very wide, about as long as the 'Crons have been dozing and the MekBoys have been loot'in in the same general vicinity.

I am fairly sure just about everything gets recalled to their monoliths/Tombs.

UselessSage wrote:True dat. But, if the tomb is smallish and the fungal infection of the planet is kind of high I do not see the Boyz laying off until all the shiny bits stop wiggling.

There is no such thing as a small Necron Tomb. They can bend the space within it, to make it larger on the inside. Like the TARDIS from Doctor Who, basically.

That said, I could see a team of Ork Kommandos possibly planting bombs or something inside a Tomb complex to destroy it, while the main Necron force is engaging the Green Tide.

Necrons are tough and relentless, but not invincible.

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The necrons are only just awakening tho...

There are many tales of IoM denizens stumbling into Necron tombs and waking up all kinds of unpleasantness. Do Orks ever go exploring caves or start digging just to see what is buried?

In which case the orks would be culled by the necrons. While the crons aren't so good on the TT, they are almost unstoppable in the fluff.

True dat. But, if the tomb is smallish and the fungal infection of the planet is kind of high I do not see the Boyz laying off until all the shiny bits stop wiggling.

Well when they phase out on the TT you win. When they phase out in the fluff...they're back in five minutes. And their wrecks/dead teleport away.

They phase out most of the time according to the fluff. Bust the phasing recall bits and the wreck stays. So, smallish tomb, largish Ork population, limited inbound teleportation capabilities and we have a scenario for some serious lootage. That could make for a really fun novel. Also, the time frame for this scenario is very wide, about as long as the 'Crons have been dozing and the MekBoys have been loot'in in the same general vicinity.

I am fairly sure just about everything gets recalled to their monoliths/Tombs.

If I recall correctly, in Hellforged a 'Cron trooper got popped through the head by heavy duty piece of industrial equipment and did not phase out. The Cog-Boys used it to trace back its C&C signal.

Durza wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:The whole point of this threat is that the Great Crusade would have been completed. Your argument is invalid. War may feed Khorne pretty nicely but the eventual goal was peace. Peace ≠ Good for Chaos. They stopped the Great Crusade for a reason.....

Yeah, because Horus killed the Emperor. What's your point?

Horus crippled the Emperor, he failed to kill him. Now what is your post about again?

I'd say that being a rotting corpse who can't exist without thousands being sacrificed is pretty damn dead. And I've bolded the relevant parts of the post, since evidently, you can't put two and two together to figure it out yourself.

No its because you made a post to BrainDeleted that was not answering his post. He ssaid that the Chaos gods wanted the Crusade to be stopped for some reason and they used Horus to stop the crusade. Not your nonsensical point.

The Emp is not dead, he is on life support and still doing stuff just not active stuff related to the Imperium like keeping the daemon infested webway portal on Terra closed.

If the Heresy never happened, well that depends. Are we saying from the perspective that the Chaos Gods still scattered the Primarchs or did the Emperor hang on to them? That's what makes the difference. If the Chaos Gods still were able to influence them after their sojourn in the Warp then I think that something would happen between the Astartes. If Horus stayed loyal it would have been one of his brothers, Lorgar being the key player, he is the true son of the four after all. It all depends on events. Did the Emperor leave Angrons brothers and sisters to die after De'shea. Does Night Haunter attack Dorn and destroy Nostramo? Does Magnus continue to stare into the Warp after Nikaea? If things planned out ok then the Imperium would be a hell of a lot more safe and the Legiones Astartes would, I'm sure, still be fighting the good fight.

Ugly Green Trog wrote: snip

Basically, I'm in accord with this post.

iproxtaco wrote:
Um, yeah, there's still a reason as to why the Emperor wanted humanity to become a race devoid of all religion, because faith empowered the Chaos Gods. Like it or not, that's an immutable fact of the universe. If bloodshed and depravity solely fueled the Dark Gods then they wouldn't have started the Heresy in the first place, they'd have just left the Emperor to get on with his plans and concentrated with the going on in the Warp.

I agree, if faith does not do anything for the Chaos Gods why bother with worship?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Next if the Gods depended on faith of a galactic populace to fuel them otherwise they die, then who was praying to them prior to humanity going into space and expanding across the galaxy?

Oh I don't know, you had a whole planet of Slaanesh worshiping snake men on Laeran, you have the Nurthene, who worship the Pantheon as a whole you have these guys

IA: Night Lords
An incident in which the Night Lords virus-bombed a continent because an emergent cult devoted to Slaanesh had been uncovered on a remote Island was cited as an damning proof of their dangerous use of excessive force.

I'm pretty damn sure that there would be many other cults out there doing their thing.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, considering the Eldar originally wanted peace but the first meeting was between them and a corrupted primarch, they may have been allies of the humans. With that much allied force, nothing in the galaxy would really be capable of standing before them.

They may even have the Tau on their side.

That was hardly their first meeting with the Eldar and the Tau would've been wiped out like any other Xenos race, if it wasn't for a warpstorm and the outbreak of the Age of Apostasy they wouldn't even be thought about now.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Sealing the EoT Would have destroyed the Imperium. The incidence of the navigator gene would become rarer, as would astropaths etc.

Wouldn't make a difference

WD:140 The Navis Nobilite - also known as the Navigator Houses - is an institution which predates the Imperium by many thousands of years. It is the most ancient of all human organisations. It was founded sometime in the Dark Age of Technology and survived through the Age of Strife to the present day.

WD: 140 The mutation is not a spontaneous or natural one, but rather the result of genetic engineering conducted in the distant past during the earliest history of the Navigator Houses. This engineering created the Navigator Gene that distinguishes Navigators from ordinary humans.

im2randomghgh wrote:

I can't see extragalactic orks. The only races I can see outside of the milky way are tyranids, since they are known for sure as being extra-galactic and have been stated as having destroyed galaxies before, the Necrontyr having the best FTL travel of any race by far and being the most resistant to natural conditions of any race due to being DEAD or as-of-yet unencountered species.

Old fluff but I still think it's correct.

WD: 118 The Techpriests who built it hoped that one day it would arrive back to its place of origin having circumnavigated the universe, or in other words, skirted the edge of reality. This probe is still sending back signals after fourteen thousand years adrift. The signals are faint and the probe is not yet on its way back, if it ever will come back. To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who constantly monitor the incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be this: that wherever they go, the Orks will always be with them.

The Emperor wasn't just trying to destroy the Chaos Gods through destroying religion though.

According to Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, he was directing his immense psychic power toward actively destroying the Realm of Chaos.

Just saying.

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

UselessSage wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The necrons are only just awakening tho...

There are many tales of IoM denizens stumbling into Necron tombs and waking up all kinds of unpleasantness. Do Orks ever go exploring caves or start digging just to see what is buried?

In which case the orks would be culled by the necrons. While the crons aren't so good on the TT, they are almost unstoppable in the fluff.

True dat. But, if the tomb is smallish and the fungal infection of the planet is kind of high I do not see the Boyz laying off until all the shiny bits stop wiggling.

Well when they phase out on the TT you win. When they phase out in the fluff...they're back in five minutes. And their wrecks/dead teleport away.

They phase out most of the time according to the fluff. Bust the phasing recall bits and the wreck stays. So, smallish tomb, largish Ork population, limited inbound teleportation capabilities and we have a scenario for some serious lootage. That could make for a really fun novel. Also, the time frame for this scenario is very wide, about as long as the 'Crons have been dozing and the MekBoys have been loot'in in the same general vicinity.

I am fairly sure just about everything gets recalled to their monoliths/Tombs.

If I recall correctly, in Hellforged a 'Cron trooper got popped through the head by heavy duty piece of industrial equipment and did not phase out. The Cog-Boys used it to trace back its C&C signal.

Well that was an anomaly, and on top of that, it eventually phased out, IIRC.

@The Necrons Tombs being bigger on the inside, That is very true. In the Necron part of fear the alien, the thing was described as 250m on the outside, and on the inside so big you could see the planet's curve.

im2randomghgh wrote:And two legions betraying him would just be a ripple in the pond. Don't forget, he had already unmade two legions by then.

We don't know WHY the Emperor put down these two Legions, it could of been because of genetic instability, radical beliefs, ect. Now it's possible that chaos might of shot themselves in the foot because, if more of humanity worship the Emperor instead of the chaos Gods, their power could end up weakening any way, and go back into "hibernation mode" bringing stability to the warp.

Does this thread assume that only the HH never occurred or any sort of Astartes rebellion period? I’m going to assume in my post that only the HH never occurred.

If the Horus never went traitor than the Chaos gods would have manipulated another arch traitor, probably resulting in a different selection of traitors instead. All of the primarchs were fullof pride and not all of them had the same level of unbreakable faith as the modern day Grey Knights.

Horus was a master of psychology and the reason why a lot of the legions became traitor was because of Horus’ influence, manipulations and machinations. The following legions turned traitor as a direct/indirect result of Horus and thus these legions wouldn’t have turned traitor:

• Sons of Horus
• Iron Warriors
• World Eaters
• Thousand Sons
• Death Guard
• Night Lords


The million dollar question is that who would have been the arch traitor instead and what legions would have turned traitor instead? It probably would have been someone with power/influence like Dorn or Guilliman. The question is if and how many legions would have followed them and if it would have been more/less successful than the HH.

Is Ward writing the fluff for the Grand Guilliman Usurping?

im2randomghgh wrote:Well that was an anomaly, and on top of that, it eventually phased out, IIRC.

@The Necrons Tombs being bigger on the inside, That is very true. In the Necron part of fear the alien, the thing was described as 250m on the outside, and on the inside so big you could see the planet's curve.

Wow, we sure have been around the bend on this one.

I accept that my hypothesis that the rumored pervasive extra-galactic Ork infestation could be a result of looted Necron FTL toys holds little weight.

The 'Crons appear to be virtually invulnerable in the fluff to anything short of exterminatus as long as their leaders are not taken out and few actors other than (C)SMs can project enough focused tactical acumen to make that happen.

Any estimate of the total numbers of Ork worlds in M31 and M42? I still suspect that if the HH had not happened the Legions would have busied themselves clearing out mold infections from the Emp's Milky Way for those ten thousand years and still not yet be finished.

candy.man wrote:Does this thread assume that only the HH never occurred or any sort of Astartes rebellion period? I’m going to assume in my post that only the HH never occurred.

If the Horus never went traitor than the Chaos gods would have manipulated another arch traitor, probably resulting in a different selection of traitors instead. All of the primarchs were fullof pride and not all of them had the same level of unbreakable faith as the modern day Grey Knights.

Horus was a master of psychology and the reason why a lot of the legions became traitor was because of Horus’ influence, manipulations and machinations. The following legions turned traitor as a direct/indirect result of Horus and thus these legions wouldn’t have turned traitor:

• Sons of Horus
• Iron Warriors
• World Eaters
• Thousand Sons
• Death Guard
• Night Lords


The million dollar question is that who would have been the arch traitor instead and what legions would have turned traitor instead? It probably would have been someone with power/influence like Dorn or Guilliman. The question is if and how many legions would have followed them and if it would have been more/less successful than the HH.

The "Dornian Heresy" might interest you.

vodo40k wrote:

candy.man wrote:Does this thread assume that only the HH never occurred or any sort of Astartes rebellion period? I’m going to assume in my post that only the HH never occurred.

If the Horus never went traitor than the Chaos gods would have manipulated another arch traitor, probably resulting in a different selection of traitors instead. All of the primarchs were fullof pride and not all of them had the same level of unbreakable faith as the modern day Grey Knights.

Horus was a master of psychology and the reason why a lot of the legions became traitor was because of Horus’ influence, manipulations and machinations. The following legions turned traitor as a direct/indirect result of Horus and thus these legions wouldn’t have turned traitor:

• Sons of Horus
• Iron Warriors
• World Eaters
• Thousand Sons
• Death Guard
• Night Lords


The million dollar question is that who would have been the arch traitor instead and what legions would have turned traitor instead? It probably would have been someone with power/influence like Dorn or Guilliman. The question is if and how many legions would have followed them and if it would have been more/less successful than the HH.

The "Dornian Heresy" might interest you.

Yeah, it's brilliant. Is there just one book for it?