Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Essentially you're wasting the other 150pts of bolter marines on trying to kill a tank.

No, it is waiting for the assault phase. If the 2x melta shots have not done the job, the powerfist and 9 krak grenades just might (Not ever tank is a Land raider. In fact, you may find land raiders a somewhat odd occurance compared to transport walls.) In an even happier situation, you are now charging the contents of a transport. (Or you are allowing a heavier unit like TH/SS to charge the contents if the tac marines cannot handle it.)

Flamers on the other hand, a bolter that automatically hits, ignores cover, and can wound more than two targets. So people who say that bolters are all the anti-infantry you need don't realize that rapid firing bolters will not wipe out 20+ Gants/Gaunts/Boyz/Blob Guard.

If the unit is big enough that I am unable to use bolters to stop it or maul it to the point where I will grind it down in the ensuing CC, I am much more concerned with stealing the charge from them (Lack of rerolling posion wounds on hormagaunts, striking simul rather than last AND lack of rerolling poison wounds with termagants, lack of S4 on orks, lack of possible furious charge on IG, and generally doing things like turning 90 incoming attacks into 60 whilst doubling your own.) and tarpitting them for as long as possible to bring support to bear (Or tear something else up that is important while keeping this unit in place for a phase or two.) ...the last thing I want to do is inflict a bunch of wounds with flamers (Which may not happen to begin with if the controlling player has the front ranks stretched to coherency in front of the mob.) and bolts and have him pull casualties from the front. Flamers do not help here. They help when I am softening a target to support a charge, but I have found there to be occasion where It may be best to be doing the charge WITH a tac squad.

As a blob-guard player, I scoff at melta-armed tac squads that charge up midfield to blow up vehicles

As well you should. The battlesuit heavy Tau player the marine is matched up with next game may well see the situation differently when he finds his XV8s within 12 though. In this same vein, the dreadnought and HF equipped speeders in my TAC list that support the melta tacs rather enjoy seeing large blobs of infantry on the board...But then again DE, longfang spammers, and GK players love seeing speeders to shoot at.

I think the only real use a melta-armed tac squad has is trying to knock off a wound from an MC.

That, and:
Popping a transport in support (or in set-up) of a charge.
Allowing you a viable shot at the dreadnought/skimmer/gunless transport/etc. that is escorting your tac squad to the board edge after it has begun to fall back.
IDing T4 multiwound (Nobs, Nid warriors, XV8/XV88s, to varying extents Paladins, etc.)
Generally placing another AV threat on the board your opponent has to consider into his plan, the ability to negate any armor and FNP for elite infantry goes here as well.

As opposed to a flamer, which has the sole purpose in life of being a really good to overly priced bolter, depending on specific scenario and how well your opponent can play terrain and coherency.

I like versatility in my units, so the melta gets the nod. I could see the case for Meltagun/Combiflamer, but in 5th ed the ability for even your tac squads to threaten armor, MCs and elite infantry is too valuable to completely give up.

One thing to consider about the melta/flamer debate:

Usually your tacs are on rhinos, which means, while the rhino is alive, you can shoot from the top hatch. So having extra bolter shots and charging is irrelevant. Flamers do well when tankshocking then burning, all inside the safety of a rhino.

while the rhino is alive, you can shoot from the top hatch.

You bring up an excellent point. However, consider the opposite: While flamer rhinos are fairly useless until your army begins to disembark opposing troopers (Except in the case of nids and IG, to a point.) melta-unit rhinos are firing meltaguns out of their top hatches, with results that are fairly consistant and obvious.

5th is a very transport and vehicle heavy environment, there is no getting around that. If you, as a mechanized army commander, look across the board and see multiple units who have no shooting that can scratch the paint of your front/side AV, and whose only real ability to knock your vehicles is attempting to use CC (Which can be greatly minimized by how fast you move a nearby vehicle) then you are seeing units you can much more easily ignore than a unit that can easily threaten to dismount your infantry or blow up/suppress important vehicles if they happen to get within a foot and a half. That he may have support that can take out your armor merely means you can afford to direct more firepower at those units.

SOFDC wrote:

while the rhino is alive, you can shoot from the top hatch.

You bring up an excellent point. However, consider the opposite: While flamer rhinos are fairly useless until your army begins to disembark opposing troopers (Except in the case of nids and IG, to a point.) melta-unit rhinos are firing meltaguns out of their top hatches at your armor (And in particular, the flame units that if dismounted can be picked apart when appropriate from the safety of the previously mentioned metal box.) with results that are fairly consistant and obvious.

Yeah, I know. I'm neither for nor against meltas or flamers. I'm just pointing out another thing to consider.

I personally use one tac squad as a melta squad and the other as a flamer squad. In theory the melta pops the vehicle, and the flamer squad deals with the contents.

So if I do put meltas on my Tac squads, which you gave some good points on, then where would I put my flamers?

As I said, a case can easily be made for Meltagun + Combi-flamer tacs, but seems like most flame weapons tend to get stuffed on speeders, dreads, sternguard, and every once in a long while...tactical terminators. I'd suggest keeping it to the first three for most things.

Keep in mind, just because it just so happens to twin link your flamers, it doesn't mean you MUST take them, just makes taking the option all the sweeter.

I know. I was just figuring that it gives me it, and might as well have something that could help mea against hordes.

A quick addition to the LRR/LRC section. I run a LRR in my Vulcan list. True the FS cannons do not benefit from Vulcan, but what they do do is burn enemy units out of cover, and it is the perfect weapon to fire with POTMS after moving 12" into the enemy lines and disembarking Vulcan and his terminators. The issue with the FS cannons is range, but with this tank you should be getting close to the enemy anyway. Just my $.02.

SOFDC wrote:

while the rhino is alive, you can shoot from the top hatch.

You bring up an excellent point. However, consider the opposite: While flamer rhinos are fairly useless until your army begins to disembark opposing troopers (Except in the case of nids and IG, to a point.) melta-unit rhinos are firing meltaguns out of their top hatches, with results that are fairly consistant and obvious.

5th is a very transport and vehicle heavy environment, there is no getting around that. If you, as a mechanized army commander, look across the board and see multiple units who have no shooting that can scratch the paint of your front/side AV, and whose only real ability to knock your vehicles is attempting to use CC (Which can be greatly minimized by how fast you move a nearby vehicle) then you are seeing units you can much more easily ignore than a unit that can easily threaten to dismount your infantry or blow up/suppress important vehicles if they happen to get within a foot and a half. That he may have support that can take out your armor merely means you can afford to direct more firepower at those units.

Yes, 5th ed is Mech heavy. Thats why you should bring long range AT as well. With the long range AT you will have popped a transport or two so that your flamers will have something to flame. Having only meltas as AT does not work well. Bolters does not handle hordes well at all, even sternguard with their special ammo struggle vs hordes. You pretty much MUST have flamers to deal with that.

For instance, a full tactical squad which rapid fire into a Mob of Boys will cause a measly 3,333 Dead boys on average assuming the ever present +4 cover...Assuming you tank shock and get 4 Boyz under each template you will be looking at 6 dead boyz from the flamers alone (assuming Vulcan).

There are plenty of places to stick meltas which will do more good than on the Tacticals. All this said, I usually do as starsdawn, one squad of Meltas and one squad of flamers.
Finally, a case can most certainly not be made for a MG+Combi-F setup. If you want to forgo the whole squads shooting except for the melta then you really need two. Even with Vulcan you will be looking at a ~43% chance of popping a Rhino when within melta range. Tactical squads works a lot better with a matched combi weapon than with mixed weapons

SOFDC, you bring up a lot of good points, and you essentially represent the counter argument to flamers. I understand the versatility of a melta gun in Tac squads, but from my point of view and experiences playing against marines with my guard (both mech and blob) is that the one or two melta guns in the Tac squads are better served as flamers and either holding objectives or dealing with already damaged/weakened units through bolter fire or a charge.

Again, I am not a marine player, so this is all speculation on my end, with experiences against marines. Though it is odd for considering when I play mech vets, my melta chimeras are halfway up the board on T1/2 having popped smoke, ready to take out enemy armour.

For instance, a full tactical squad which rapid fire into a Mob of Boys will cause a measly 3,333 Dead boys on average assuming the ever present +4 cover...Assuming you tank shock and get 4 Boyz under each template you will be looking at 6 dead boyz from the flamers alone (assuming Vulcan).

Firstly, outside of a KFF or someone actually fielding a venomthrope rather than yet more hive guard, I tend to discount 4+C/5+C being present at short ranges like flamers. My experience has been that a lot of units, particularly large bodycount units, at this range that can still get a coversave that wasn't sidestepped in the movement phase is probably in area terrain, and if they wan't to try charging at me with 10-15+ models starting in area cover, well...Hope they brought the grenades they're likely to need.

Secondly, I was perhaps not clear what my point was previously. It is not that the flamer is necessarily a -bad- anti infantry weapon, it has the potential to be rather nice. My point was that in the situations it is good in, can work against you in ways so hilarious that it makes me want to fling a metal hive tyrant at people who write books. I want to be charging the horde. I don't want him pulling off 6-10 models from the front ranks after I go flame and bolt pistol apocalypse on him to gank me out of stealing the charge from him. Denying the other player their attack bonus and any on-charge silliness is going to yield greater benefit than taking 30 or so extra points of redshirts off the board.

Now, there are times where you manage to move to the 1 inch line, and it won't matter what you shoot either way, you will have range. This tends to happen with assault marines a lot, and it's why I keep flamers on them, but for a tac marine? Not a frequent occurance.

Tac squads are better served as flamers and either holding objectives or dealing with already damaged/weakened units through bolter fire or a charge.

Problem being that it's not going to be an infantry swarm trying to push your tac squad off an objective unless you are matched up with IG (Sometimes.) Orks, or horde nids. I can't speak for anyone else`s gaming circuit, but while orks and IG do have a presence, you are much more likely to ram into a MEQ or Tau (?!) army. It's more likely to be transports rolling up and forcing you to make decisions, or a walker. Even in the case of Orks, if the ork player is running Ye Olde Kan Wall, do you think the BOYZ will be the ones trying to push the napalm Hell unit off an important point, Or the walker you cannot hurt by shooting? If that is perhaps your plan, to get him to devote walkers to X and Y positions on the board, perhaps the flamer is a better choice, I can't judge how clever your plan is without being there.

Stealign the charge is importent against hordesd, especially Hormagaunts or Slugga Boys. 30 Hormagaunts, for about180pts, can put out 90 Str 3, Int 5 attacks that reroll 1s to hit. That doesn't take into account Adrenals or Toxins sacs.

30 Slugga boys can put out 120 Str 4, Int 3 attacks on the charge at WS 4. That is scary.

Assuming you could get 30 Hormagaunts into base contact with 10 tacticals than the tacticals would get raped even if they do get the charge...

Pretty much the same thing with 30 Boyz.

As for terrain, yeah it could happen. Boyz wouldnt care tho since they will be striking last anyway and Nids have MTC so might very well clear the terrain before the assault move.

However, most of the time I try to use my rhinos to block movement so that my tacticals can fire on the horde and then the horde will have to charge the rhino the next turn buying the tacticals yet another round of shooting before assaulting. This is most often done by deploying two rhinos in a V formation. But yeah, cover might not be ever present at close range Ill give you that.

10 Tacitcals will get grinded down by 30 Boyz even if they get the charge. Applying two flamers to their face for one turn and then a flamer and 9 pistol shots the next turn will most often prevent that.

It is true that many of my opponents will have transports. So far there appears to be a regular GK and Tau player. Meltas will be useful there.
But then what will I use to charge the contents with? A dread with a flamer? A speeder with a flamer?

Ted, that's a really ingenious tactic with the Rhino formation. Stealing it

forruner_mercy wrote:It is true that many of my opponents will have transports. So far there appears to be a regular GK and Tau player. Meltas will be useful there.
But then what will I use to charge the contents with? A dread with a flamer? A speeder with a flamer?

I still think the tactical squads are where the flamers go! I don't disagree with some of the comments here, like being able to take out armor or watching out for Kans with your flamer squad, but honestly, those are idealic sircumstances.

I run other things that deal with armor, charge the contents of transports, and can assault hordes, so that my tactical squads effecitivness can be fully utilized.

10 marines with a combi flamer squad. Assume the roll up in a rhino and fire. 2 flame templates and 17 bolter shots are going to hurt, even TDA and PA guys. Then charge in that dread or those near by terminators or a second squad to take out the remains.

If you rely on melta/combi-melta to take out armor with your tacticals, guess what you are 6-12 inches away from the contents of that armor. That armor has done it's job. If it's a walker, then you need to get a better position because if you fail to stop it, your marines are toast.

Tactical Marines are there to clean up or torrent troops. Equip them to do their job. Throw a heavy weapon in the for a ranged shot of opportunity vs armor but otherwise target the goons.

A third squad of marines with a plasma/combi-plasma loadout is acceptable. S7 AP 2 is good juice and adds a heckofa punch when facing off against TDA and PA guys. Otherwise, my first 2 slots of tactical squads get flamers. There is the range issue, but when I need the extra hot death, it's there and it's usually late in the game when it matters most.

MM

Yet more good points!

If you rely on melta/combi-melta to take out armor with your tacticals, guess what you are 6-12 inches away from the contents of that armor. That armor has done it's job.

Alright. So it's within 12. Probably within 6. Time to charge. Things like Firewarriors, Meltavets, boyz units small enough to fit inside a trukk, and similar don't react well to be charged by MEQs, even tacticals. Even if it's something sufficiently beefy that a tac squad cannot handle it in CC, you now have the opportunity to whittle it down or charge it with something on YOUR turn with the rest of your army.

But then what will I use to charge the contents with? A dread with a flamer? A speeder with a flamer?

Depends? What WERE the contents? lightly equipped mechvets, firewarriors, small boyz squads, BA assault squads you outnumber 2:1, DE warriors? Charge it with the tacs. Something beefier? You probably have TH/SS to use with vulkan, they fit perfectly taking out targets that are inappropriate for tacs. Any MEQ (Including librarian-less GK units.) unit that does not have a powerfist/daemonhammer can be tackled by a dread, just be aware that lucky krak nade glances may happen.

Just keep in mind what tacs can and cannot outfight....refrain from doing things like popping a rhino full of grey hunters with a standard and wolf guard + PW/PF inside, or a GK strike squad/purifiers and then proceed to immediately charge it with 10 tactical marines. It won't go well. Those need to have a speeder or nearby units whittle them down before any charges take place. For this, I would suggest the MM/HF speeder. Try to rush it up behind the transport, but fire the tacticals weapons first. Here is why:

If your tacticals melta the transports and the squad disembarks, the speeder forces them to go out the side doors (And this is only in the case of a rhino! Chimeras have back door or emergency disembark!) unable to get out the back. Unless they like dying, they're going to be in a big line along one side of the hull for your flamer, and likely presenting a squad in the open to one part of your army or another, in either case, it shortens the distance to a charge if that is what is desired rather than bake-a-flaking the whole unit. In the case of an explosion rather than wreck, they get to decide if they want to cluster up in the crater closer to the tacticals to get away from the heavy flamer, or closer to the heavy flamer to avoid being charged.

If your tacticals DON'T kill the transport...You still have a rear AV shot from the speeders multimelta. Barring even this (Like if you decided it was a good idea to flat out the speeder to get behind said transport, and cannot fire) when your tacticals charge the vehicle, try to make them completely surround the front and sides. See if the krak nades and powerfist (if there is a powerfist in your lineup.) pop it. Pray for a wrecked result and giggle incessantly if it happens and the models that can't disembark far enough away have aneurysms.

Dreads make excellent support units, and there are roles that few other units can fill (Hi hormagaunt blobs! Aw, look at you, you're so cute trying to dent that dread! Trying SO -HARD!-) and I keep one in my TAC list alongside speeders, but I find the speeders doing a lot more damage and causing a lot more headaches most games.

I wrote up a Vulkan list for the OP. I POMed it to him/ her, but opinions both for myself and the OP are possibly needed. Should I post here or make a new thread?

I would say start a thread in Army Lists.

Here, follow this link.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/403148.page

Ok, will check it out.

1000
I'm considering a Salamander list as well. Here's my 1k idea. I've not had luck iwith TH/SS, but everyone says they're great. I decided not to include them below.

HQ: Forgefather Vulkan He'stan

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 185 pts)
4 Tactical Squad, 185 pts
1 Sergeant (Chainsword x1; Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Razorback (Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Twin-Linked Lascannon)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 185 pts)
4 Tactical Squad, 185 pts
1 Sergeant (Chainsword x1; Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Razorback (Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Twin-Linked Lascannon)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron
3 Land Speeder Squadron, 210 pts Multi-melta x3; Heavy Flamer x3\

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 115 pts Multi-melta; Heavy Flamer)

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 115 pts Multi-melta; Heavy Flamer)

Validation Report:
c-1. File Version: 1.32 For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission; 1. Chapter: Codex Chapter
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
HQ: 1 (1 - 2)
Elite: 2 (0 - 3)
Troops: 2 (2 - 6)
Fast: 1 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 0 (0 - 3)

Total Roster Cost: 1000

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

I would recommend splitting the 3 speeders up to give more firing options and targets to split enemy fire.

doktor_g wrote:1000
I'm considering a Salamander list as well. Here's my 1k idea. I've not had luck iwith TH/SS, but everyone says they're great. I decided not to include them below.

HQ: Forgefather Vulkan He'stan

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 185 pts)
4 Tactical Squad, 185 pts
1 Sergeant (Chainsword x1; Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Razorback (Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Twin-Linked Lascannon)

Troops: Tactical Squad (6#, 185 pts)
4 Tactical Squad, 185 pts
1 Sergeant (Chainsword x1; Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Razorback (Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Twin-Linked Lascannon)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron
3 Land Speeder Squadron, 210 pts Multi-melta x3; Heavy Flamer x3\

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 115 pts Multi-melta; Heavy Flamer)

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 115 pts Multi-melta; Heavy Flamer)

Validation Report:
c-1. File Version: 1.32 For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission; 1. Chapter: Codex Chapter
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
HQ: 1 (1 - 2)
Elite: 2 (0 - 3)
Troops: 2 (2 - 6)
Fast: 1 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 0 (0 - 3)

Total Roster Cost: 1000

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

That actually looks pretty good. For my 1500pts list I am going to see what I need to do to fit a LRC and 7 Termies in.

I think the list is quite frail.

Target #1: Landspeeders
Target #2: Razorbacks
Target #3: two 5 man squads
Target #4: It doesn't matter since the troops are all dead.

Adding the Terminators and LR for 1500 doesn't solve the frailness of the rest of the list. I would continue to ignore the terminators and keep pounding the little 5 man squads.

I personally would beef them up to 10 man and see what I could fit in after that.

Of course, I'm not sure what to do with Vulkan after that. 1 5 man with razorback is a good IC option, I use it, but as your main goons... too small.

@Master Melta: As an ork player, my Salamanders list's lack of troops scares me. Do you think I should replace Razorbacks with Rhinos and muster up to 10 member tac squads?
DrG

If you only have 2 troops, absolutely.

5 goons in an AV 11 transport is not much of a threat to anything outside of 10 guardsmen/guardians in the open, with no special weapons. And are only more durable due to the tank.

If you roll with 4 troops, then I think you'll be better off with the little squads but I still like at least 2x10 goons in rhinos incase I need to actually attack something with a scoring unit.

Master Melta wrote:

5 goons in an AV 11 transport is not much of a threat to anything outside of 10 guardsmen/guardians in the open

Or Gretchin. I always believed they were Str 3, T3. I didn't know of anything lower than that.

Weird sarge setup: a chainsword and a combi-melta? Why not a bolt pistol and combi-melta: at least you get to fire the bolt pistol when assaulting, and you're not getting an extra attack on the chainsword anyway. Or combi-melta + pfist. And weir choice of upgrade: storm bolters on Razorbacks? Putting the landspeeders in one squadron?

you're also running Vulkan, which makes your flamers and meltas twin-linked. So why would you run 5-man tac squads when you can get 10 and put those twin-linked weapons?