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im2randomghgh wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Tau used Kroot as meathshields to allow their fire caste and civilians to withdraw. I think the term expendable exists in their vocabulatory..

Anywyas about this quote, your choice of words is hilarious, because it is almost exactly the opposite of what it says in the codex.

Oh really?

Maybe the codex talks of tactics applied when it goes according to plan. Wasn't my point.
I was hinting at the work of the author of this codex, who put the Kroot right into the " have the honor to be sacrificed for the greater good" place, which isn't soo different from sending in the next wave, just not 'for the emporer' but the 'greater good'.
At best I wasn't aware their voculabulary lacks the term we are used to and gives it a different name.
Example still stands.

( thousands of Kroot sent to their death to keep imperial forces busy and the Tau could retreat unharmed..).

im2randomghgh wrote:Being in the assault force is actually considered an honour, and certain Cadres do not let alien auxiliaries help storm defenses because they aren't worthy.

Without non-Tau, how should they storm anything? It comes down to CC and we may agree Tau dislike CC..

Kroothawk wrote:
It is common practice in Tau threads to take official GW statements, negate them and present this (without giving a source of course) as universal truth, hoping that noone finds out. If someone finds out, just call him a Tau fanboy.

He , Kroot - fanboi...

Am I doing it right?


If not, following common practice I has to be accused of hating something, surely?

I mean, your attempt to cover the fact of 'auxilaria' being expendable is a different approach and I was tempted to add the 'missing' source. OtOH why should I? The same poster, the same theme, to add a source is to reapeat oneself like a broken LP.

Kroothawk wrote:
BTW Kroot are mercenaries to the core. Mercenaries are not interested in sacrifical meatshield jobs. And the Tau didn't start a 10 year war with Orks just to get some expendables.

Mercenaries are interested in the loot. And to live on to spent it.
But, the employer of mercenaries usually has the safety of his own people in mind when endangering other creatures lives to fight in his stead. Mercenaries always were and will be the expendable.
You seem to think I consider the value of the Kroot as cheap. Youre mistaken, my point is the Tau value the lives of Tau very high, and the Kroot are just 'not trusted allies like vespids' and 'mercenaries' , thus the price of a Kroot life is worth the safety of Tau.

The Tau wouldn't have peace with the Orks if they didn't support the Kroot. The war was inevitable.

MrTau wrote:Ok, the Humans would at large keep their world as it was. The Tau would ofc offer Tech and stuff though. The Tau would want something from the world, be it Resources, Military or just some Tau Space. And they would not be sterilised. The only possible event were they would be is if they made a rebellion (and still maybe since the fluff was uncanonical to start with). The reason to the sterilisation in the end of Dark Crusade was because the Humans started rebelling when they heard an Imperial fleet was on its way.

un-canonical?

The fliuff was not infiltrated into the background, it passed GW's attention.
The problem is not if it could happen, the real problem is the concept of 40k contains death by untold millions and some people get upset when GW didn't stop this possible outcome as 'unfluffy'. Why should GW stop it? It fits the boundaries of 40k.
Eternal war and nobody is missed plus a wide range of greys instead the usual black&white.

The Tau codex pretty much states the Tau bomb those who oppose the greater good into oblivion from above, but if its going to be sterilization people moan about this as 'unfluffy'. Nothing suggests the Tau would restrain themselves if civil war may come in form of rebelling worlds.

1hadhq wrote:( thousands of Kroot sent to their death to keep imperial forces busy and the Tau could retreat unharmed..).

Still reading this simple bolter porn with the simple plot of an ego shooter. Until now both Tau and Kroot fight the same way though. BTW all civilian Tau HAVE already retreated, only the army stays back to fight their home planet, so I doubt this interpretation.

1hadhq wrote:Mercenaries always were and will be the expendable.
You seem to think I consider the value of the Kroot as cheap. Youre mistaken, my point is the Tau value the lives of Tau very high, and the Kroot are just 'not trusted allies like vespids' and 'mercenaries' , thus the price of a Kroot life is worth the safety of Tau.
The Tau wouldn't have peace with the Orks if they didn't support the Kroot. The war was inevitable.

Kroot are not of the "hurr hurr dying is fun" kind.
Kroot have their own agenda, also fighting for other fractions, so not seeing them as 100% loyal to the Tau Empire exclusively is just realistic.
And using meatshields runs against the principle of the "Greater Good" (see my sig). This may escape people misinterpreting "The Greater Good" for some Stalinistic propaganda. And the original designer notes also had a sentence explicitely stating that Kroot are not used as meatshields, but I didn't save that part and can't find it on archive.org.

1hadhq wrote:

MrTau wrote:Ok, the Humans would at large keep their world as it was. The Tau would ofc offer Tech and stuff though. The Tau would want something from the world, be it Resources, Military or just some Tau Space. And they would not be sterilised. The only possible event were they would be is if they made a rebellion (and still maybe since the fluff was uncanonical to start with). The reason to the sterilisation in the end of Dark Crusade was because the Humans started rebelling when they heard an Imperial fleet was on its way.

un-canonical?

The fliuff was not infiltrated into the background, it passed GW's attention.
The problem is not if it could happen, the real problem is the concept of 40k contains death by untold millions and some people get upset when GW didn't stop this possible outcome as 'unfluffy'. Why should GW stop it? It fits the boundaries of 40k.
Eternal war and nobody is missed plus a wide range of greys instead the usual black&white.

The Tau codex pretty much states the Tau bomb those who oppose the greater good into oblivion from above, but if its going to be sterilization people moan about this as 'unfluffy'. Nothing suggests the Tau would restrain themselves if civil war may come in form of rebelling worlds.

You know quite well that in the 40k timeline, a sterilization never happens. You know quite well that in the alternative timeline, sterilization is only the third likeliest explanations why men and women living separated in different camps get less children (as Mom and Dad ). You also know quite well that there is no part in the Codex telling of Tau bombing another planet (there is only one odd paragraph where they seem to threaten this, which contradicts all the other written fluff in the Codex and beyond). I guess you just decided to cover the known facts to fool people not familiar with the tau background.

The Kroot were sent first, and died first, against Hive Fleet Gorgon on at least one of the planets.

That's because the Kroot were in a far better position to combat the 'nids in a wooded environment than Firewarriors were.

Expendable isn't a concept that the Tau believe in, not for themselves nor their allies. The Greater Good isn't some front that the Tau use to entice aliens into some false hope and then abuse them, it is a ideal that they genuinely believe in, they believe that with co-operation and unity between species, playing to eachothers strengths and focuing it towards a common goal, then together they can achieve anything. It really doesn't get any more complicated than that, not until GW decide otherwise.

The sterilisation thing is from a 3rd party RPG and is the non-canical ending to a computer game where the narrator makes three vague guesses as to the cause of the drop in population on Kronus. Both contradict two codices and that's enough to convince me that it's rubbish.

It does seem people try to drag any argument up to try and beat down the Tau.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Tau used Kroot as meathshields to allow their fire caste and civilians to withdraw. I think the term expendable exists in their vocabulatory..

Tau actually reach full maturity at ten.

Anywyas about this quote, your choice of words is hilarious, because it is almost exactly the opposite of what it says in the codex.

The Tau don't use Kroot like that but not so for humans when it suits the Tau.

Codex Tau Empire pg.13 wrote: The assault troops are not used as pawned-the Tau art of war does not recognise the concept of expendable troops. Instead their safety is entrusted to the troops providing the covering fire who must identify and kill enemy firebases before the assault force suffers serious harm.

Being in the assault force is actually considered an honour, and certain Cadres do not let alien auxiliaries help storm defenses because they aren't worthy.

Mere semantics. The Tau don't understand why people don't praised and join the Greater Good or choose to fight against it nor when they want to make enforce order they don't exceute they just make one disappear.

It has nothing to do with semantics.

It has everything to do with tau rarely ever storm anything, and when they do, they destroy as many enemies as they can before the assault force closes.

It's funny because down lower, you said you present sources, but didn't present any here.

It would be interesting to find out what life is like on a Tau world, are different people segregated (if so most likely unforced), do they inter-mingle in markets or bars (if the latter exists), etc. I certainly think there would be animosity between species.

@ Kroothawk, I have a good way to describe the greater good.

You see the name for the Tau is actually borrowed from dune, where the Fremen word "tau" means "one-ness of community".

It is a combination of this, a caste system, and good 'ol fashioned utilitarianism that is the greater good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yarrickshad wrote:It would be interesting to find out what life is like on a Tau world, are different people segregated (most likely), do they inter-mingle in markets or bars (if they exist), etc. I certainly think there would be animosity between species.

No, the vespid are treated as honoured allies, and kroot have their own worlds.

And yes, there are markets, that is the whole point of the water caste.

I guess my take on Tau society and such is mainly colored by the military and what little fluff got me started on them as a hobby.

I have always found the Tau to be ( minus the caste system) simular to the Roman republic, with Ethereals acting as sort of senators and a ruling body, planets withing the Empire each have a specific character to them ( much like the provinces of Rome ) and each specializes in some form of contribution to the greater good.

And much like the RR (Roman Republic) they draw upon allies and indigenous races to bolster their military hence Auxilllaries, The Tau may be the first amoung equals but anyone can become a citizen if they adhere to the laws pay their taxes ( I assume they have taxes ) and uphold the greater good as a ideal, again simular to the Roman peace.

In return the non-tau races get technology and protection from the greater Tau empire, its not the Tau being a goody two-shoes race so much as being a reasonable one, but Tau law is the law of the empire, excepting for race specific and local concerns, and I am sure the Tau would crack down harshly on anyone disrupting their ideals.

The Tau seem to use a variation of carrot and stick diplomacy, but they are as far as the 40k universe is concerned the most tolerate of races for other cultures, and seem to take each race on a case by case basis, hence if one human planet became a problem, and another one was a upstanding contributer to the empire, I am sure there would be no racial repurcussions on the non-offending planet, but perhaps a heightened level of awareness on the behalf of local Tau monitoring groups.

Now are the Tau capable of bombing a planet from orbit, or rounding up populations for sterilization, or running re-education camps, sure they are capable, but in order for them to do that I firmly believe the need would have to be dire and great for those measures, other-wise it would be a empire wide policy, why would the Tau be ashamed of something that supported the Greater Good. Sacrifices are made daily for the Tau empire fire warriors , kroot , vespids etc, each fight and die for it, but as stated in the codex and elsewhere (Taros Campaign IIRC )
the Tau do not fight attrition wars or send troops to slaughter as a meatshield, they dont have that luxury ( since as so many like to point out what a tiny empire the tau are ) , so they make everything count and fight a war of manuver.

I know there are plenty of Tau haters out there and I am sure any possible failings that they can and will find will be copy pasted ad-nauseum, but I for one actually enjoy the Tau fluff and estetics, I like that they are no where as grimdarkness as the rest of the 40k universe, and if they have a few dirty secrets hiding in the empire so be it, it pales in comparison with the mountains of oppression and genocide the other races and IOM have done and continue to do.

So if all you IOM supporters want to constantly point out every possible flaw with the Tau, go ahead, wont change a thing of how I feel about my little blue dudes, this game and settings need differences otherwise we will all just be playing differnt colored marines

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: I guess my take on Tau society and such is mainly colored by the military and what little fluff got me started on them as a hobby.

I have always found the Tau to be ( minus the caste system) simular to the Roman republic, with Ethereals acting as sort of senators and a ruling body, planets withing the Empire each have a specific character to them ( much like the provinces of Rome ) and each specializes in some form of contribution to the greater good.

And much like the RR (Roman Republic) they draw upon allies and indigenous races to bolster their military hence Auxilllaries, The Tau may be the first amoung equals but anyone can become a citizen if they adhere to the laws pay their taxes ( I assume they have taxes ) and uphold the greater good as a ideal, again simular to the Roman peace.

In return the non-tau races get technology and protection from the greater Tau empire, its not the Tau being a goody two-shoes race so much as being a reasonable one, but Tau law is the law of the empire, excepting for race specific and local concerns, and I am sure the Tau would crack down harshly on anyone disrupting their ideals.

The Tau seem to use a variation of carrot and stick diplomacy, but they are as far as the 40k universe is concerned the most tolerate of races for other cultures, and seem to take each race on a case by case basis, hence if one human planet became a problem, and another one was a upstanding contributer to the empire, I am sure there would be no racial repurcussions on the non-offending planet, but perhaps a heightened level of awareness on the behalf of local Tau monitoring groups.

Now are the Tau capable of bombing a planet from orbit, or rounding up populations for sterilization, or running re-education camps, sure they are capable, but in order for them to do that I firmly believe the need would have to be dire and great for those measures, other-wise it would be a empire wide policy, why would the Tau be ashamed of something that supported the Greater Good. Sacrifices are made daily for the Tau empire fire warriors , kroot , vespids etc, each fight and die for it, but as stated in the codex and elsewhere (Taros Campaign IIRC )
the Tau do not fight attrition wars or send troops to slaughter as a meatshield, they dont have that luxury ( since as so many like to point out what a tiny empire the tau are ) , so they make everything count and fight a war of manuver.

I know there are plenty of Tau haters out there and I am sure any possible failings that they can and will find will be copy pasted ad-nauseum, but I for one actually enjoy the Tau fluff and estetics, I like that they are no where as grimdarkness as the rest of the 40k universe, and if they have a few dirty secrets hiding in the empire so be it, it pales in comparison with the mountains of oppression and genocide the other races and IOM have done and continue to do.

So if all you IOM supporters want to constantly point out every possible flaw with the Tau, go ahead, wont change a thing of how I feel about my little blue dudes, this game and settings need differences otherwise we will all just be playing differnt colored marines

Well Said!

As an addendum to what you were saying about bombardment from orbit, the tau would have no reason to do that. They do not fight for land,, they fight to eliminate the enemy soldiers, and minimize civilian casualties, much as is done in peacekeeping missions today, only a little less unfairly balance than Canada and the US have when they hunt terrorists.

The "human sterilization" thing is population control. This has been brought up before, and there are good internal reasons (from the Tau POV) for them to do it. It's not exactly a "nice" thing to do but it's hardly one of the worst things the tau could be doing. Forcing people to join the greater good whether they want to or not is actually far worse. Or there's Brightsword, who I regard as an exception but who is known to have engaged in the systematic extermination of at least one human population (Nimbosa, in Cities of Death) or the way they will threaten recalcitrant worlds with annihilation if they don't submit (i think 2006). They probably think they're justified in doing it though, given their whole greater good ideology, and it snot like any other faction in 40K hasn't done similar or worse (Exterminatus anyone?)

The Key to remember is that everything they do runs through that "Greater Good" filter. It caries certain obvious benefits (security, stability, you have regular meals, clothing, and such) but you also basically have little or no choice about your place in society or the ability to refuse when it comes to that same "Greater Good".

Yarrickshad wrote:That's because the Kroot were in a far better position to combat the 'nids in a wooded environment than Firewarriors were.

Expendable isn't a concept that the Tau believe in, not for themselves nor their allies. The Greater Good isn't some front that the Tau use to entice aliens into some false hope and then abuse them, it is a ideal that they genuinely believe in, they believe that with co-operation and unity between species, playing to eachothers strengths and focuing it towards a common goal, then together they can achieve anything. It really doesn't get any more complicated than that, not until GW decide otherwise.

The sterilisation thing is from a 3rd party RPG and is the non-canical ending to a computer game where the narrator makes three vague guesses as to the cause of the drop in population on Kronus. Both contradict two codices and that's enough to convince me that it's rubbish.

It does seem people try to drag any argument up to try and beat down the Tau.

Blah blah blah. People like you use the rpg and video games to hit on the Imperium but when we use it. The screams of non-canon comes in. What hypocrisy. Oh it is canon, for 40k everything is canon so get over it. A codex says it, you can't just ignore it.

im2randomghgh wrote:
It has nothing to do with semantics.

It has everything to do with tau rarely ever storm anything, and when they do, they destroy as many enemies as they can before the assault force closes.

It's funny because down lower, you said you present sources, but didn't present any here.

I already did before in a thread that I'm sure you remember, just go there. It can't be that hard to find it.


A friend of mine on spacebattles sent me this post:

"Hey! On page 42 of the Tau Empire codex, second paragraph, the Tau purged a system of "the hateful Reek." I'm not sure that is proper xenocide, but the idea is there."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Connor MacLeod wrote:The "human sterilization" thing is population control.

Thats how I interpreted it as well. Though the way the sentence is phrased gives on ethe impression the sterelizations were done for another reason.

This has been brought up before, and there are good internal reasons (from the Tau POV) for them to do it. It's not exactly a "nice" thing to do but it's hardly one of the worst things the tau could be doing. Forcing people to join the greater good whether they want to or not is actually far worse. Or there's Brightsword, who I regard as an exception but who is known to have engaged in the systematic extermination of at least one human population (Nimbosa, in Cities of Death) or the way they will threaten recalcitrant worlds with annihilation if they don't submit (i think 2006). They probably think they're justified in doing it though, given their whole greater good ideology, and it snot like any other faction in 40K hasn't done similar or worse (Exterminatus anyone?)

If my pal is right. The Hateful Reek got exterminated.

The Key to remember is that everything they do runs through that "Greater Good" filter. It caries certain obvious benefits (security, stability, you have regular meals, clothing, and such) but you also basically have little or no choice about your place in society or the ability to refuse when it comes to that same "Greater Good".

And not being part of the Tau empire also carries benefits of not having to listen to anyone thought that benefit also applies to not joining the Imperium. The benefit that the Tau offer is also offered by the Imperium as well.

Space understanding and space tolerance is heresy. I've reported you to the nearest Commissariat.

The Imperium does its own brand of thought control, propoganda/manipulation, and enforced conformity (including disappearing people who don't fit in.) The difference between the Imperium and the tau is that the Imperium is bigger and more unwieldy. The same issues that make direct administration (or micro-management) and real standardization of any kind impossible also by that very limitation ensure the sort of "freedom" you have in the Imperium. The Tau have a smaller number of worlds and they are more tightly bound (IIRC they're spread across no more than 300 LY, but they have a good many hundreds of worlds in that sphere.) That closeness plus the structure of Tau society permit them to more effectively administer/control their worlds (as well as standardise and efficiently supply their Fire Warriors.)

Furthermore, given that you still have gross disparities between the upper and lower classes, outright abuses/explotiation, etc. on at least some worlds I wouldn't say "freedom" is automatically the better option. Some people would prefer security and stability over 'freedom' given that situation. I know I'd prefer living with the tau even if I have my freewill restricted if it was a choice between the tau and say, a forge world or a place like Necromunda.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The Imperium does its own brand of thought control, propoganda/manipulation, and enforced conformity (including disappearing people who don't fit in.) The difference between the Imperium and the tau is that the Imperium is bigger and more unwieldy. The same issues that make direct administration (or micro-management) and real standardization of any kind impossible also by that very limitation ensure the sort of "freedom" you have in the Imperium. The Tau have a smaller number of worlds and they are more tightly bound (IIRC they're spread across no more than 300 LY, but they have a good many hundreds of worlds in that sphere.) That closeness plus the structure of Tau society permit them to more effectively administer/control their worlds (as well as standardise and efficiently supply their Fire Warriors.)

Were you replying to me? Cause I pretty much said this as well. Its preferable to be free and independent from both the Tau and Imperium. As you said both sides do pretty much the same thing.

Furthermore, given that you still have gross disparities between the upper and lower classes, outright abuses/explotiation, etc. on at least some worlds I wouldn't say "freedom" is automatically the better option. Some people would prefer security and stability over 'freedom' given that situation. I know I'd prefer living with the tau even if I have my freewill restricted if it was a choice between the tau and say, a forge world or a place like Necromunda.

Forge world Gria from the SM video game didn't seem that bad ot counting the Ork invasion of course, though I could be wrong. Freedom doesn't exist in 40k, only slavery to either the Imperiium, Tau empire, Stryxis, eaten by Nids or Kroot or slavery by Chaos .

As for the gross disparties thing, its gak we on RL earth have to deal with as well not all worlds have such douche nobles. FFG hives are only truly dangerous near the Underhive's unless you count GunMetal but in that Hive, everyone likes dueling and killing each other so yeah, cultural differences 101!

Hives are billions of people forced into the samecouple of spires, and generally tosix to anyone who steps outside them meaning you are trapped inside. how can any of them be nice?


Nom

Corporal_Reznov wrote: Blah blah blah. People like you use the rpg and video games to hit on the Imperium but when we use it. The screams of non-canon comes in. What hypocrisy. Oh it is canon, for 40k everything is canon so get over it. A codex says it, you can't just ignore it.

Err, I haven't used any game or RPG material to attack any other faction so your accusations are A) wrong and B) just plain rude. Your attitude towards me was unnecessary, I have played Imperial Guard for the last 6 years and Space Marines for 4 and have been a fan of the Imperium so please look at your facts before attacking me.

Which codex?

I'll go with what Soo'Vah'Cha said and I'll make my position a bit clearer; although I don't doubt that the Tau could sterilise a population and exterminate another species, I simply consider a non-canical ending in a computer game and a 3rd party RPG as too unreliable when we have other sources that are more trust worthy, especially when you consider that the RPG states things which are completely at odds with everything else written about the Tau's attitude towards other races, I take it with a large dose of salt that's all. However it does beg the question as to why the Tau would possibly sterilise a human population over any other species, I'm sure humans don't breed quicker than Kroot or Vespid for example and other races would have given them just as much trouble.

Yarrickshad wrote:However it does beg the question as to why the Tau would possibly sterilise a human population over any other species, I'm sure humans don't breed quicker than Kroot or Vespid for example and other races would have given them just as much trouble.

Perhaps because the Kroot and Vespid don't have a ridiculously huge Empire waiting in the wings to "assist" any troublemakers of their own race on Tau worlds. Or perhaps because humanity is, for some reason, more inclined to think of "self" over "greater good" than the other races in question are.


Edit - I should add that I've never quite understood why people get so worked up over the idea of selective brainwashing and sterilization by the Tau. When I read the relevant sections in Deathwatch, the first thing that popped into my head was, "Of course they do that."

Kroothawk wrote:
Still reading this simple bolter porn with the simple plot of an ego shooter. Until now both Tau and Kroot fight the same way though. BTW all civilian Tau HAVE already retreated, only the army stays back to fight their home planet, so I doubt this interpretation.

I see. If it doesn't float YOUR boat, its "invalid".

Basically Kroot were sent by the author of codex Tau into a fight they couldn't win. A charge as rearguard, which allowed the Tau to retreat and thus saved Tau lives. The lives of the 1st amongst equals...
Maybe one day we get pulse rifle pron and I will keep on commenting how doubtable this is because its lack of boltguns.

Kroothawk wrote:
Kroot are not of the "hurr hurr dying is fun" kind.

Who is enjoying it ?
Seriously those who don't mind dying may not see it as fun, and the rest isn't interested in it as it impacts on your future and fun pretty heavily. Except of a few insane minions of chaos, no one considers it fun to die.

Kroothawk wrote:
Kroot have their own agenda, also fighting for other fractions, so not seeing them as 100% loyal to the Tau Empire exclusively is just realistic.

Kroothawk wrote:
And using meatshields runs against the principle of the "Greater Good" ..

Background provides examples of kroot sacrificed to protect Tau.
The greater good doesn't prevent this.

Kroothawk wrote:
This may escape people misinterpreting "The Greater Good" for some Stalinistic propaganda.

Josef's second name wasn't Aun'Va ? I am shocked...

Kroothawk wrote:And the original designer notes also had a sentence explicitely stating that Kroot are not used as meatshields, but I didn't save that part and can't find it on archive.org.

Kroothawk wrote:
You know quite well that in the 40k timeline, a sterilization never happens.

Not yet. Death by xplosions and bloodshed is preferred by GW authors.

Kroothawk wrote:You know quite well that in the alternative timeline, sterilization is only the third likeliest explanation why men and women living separated in different camps get less children .

And? Its still one of 3 and won't go away by fighting it as 'un-canonical'. To accept it wasn't shot down by GW is the first step.
To accept it isn't impossible the next. Now go for the final step and accept I commented on canon or not and the concept of canon has its own threads and this is far enough from the original topic already.
So we may agree that GW not rejecting the alternative timeline are a hint on the shades of grey GW deems acceptable in products with their logo when it comes to Tau.

Kroothawk wrote: You also know quite well that there is no part in the Codex telling of Tau bombing another planet (there is only one odd paragraph where they seem to threaten this, which contradicts all the other written fluff in the Codex and beyond).

There are no specific targets given. But its there.
Back to these WD articles from the first step of Tau into the GW-universe:



Apologies to all who find this unreadable.
Wasn't able to access a better copy of it. Should be enough for Kroothawk to spot the original source of this "odd" paragraph.
The actions of the Air caste are certainly not presented a threat but a statement.

Kroothawk wrote:I guess you just decided to cover the known facts to fool people not familiar with the tau background.

Guessed wrong.
I do my best not to cover anything but still just an imperfect human.

Real fun seing Imps trying to say that the Tau are evil nazies when the Imperium exterminates entire populations for nothing. Does Armageddon ring any bells? Besides Brightsword had his command taken away from him.

"General! You forgot your Earl Grey back in the trenches!"
"What!? Send the 5th regiment forward to retake my tea!"
"But sir the Iron warriors have fortifie" `BAM´
"Forward men, For the Emperor who has exterminated countless xeno and human civilisations!"

Space Crusader wrote:Real fun seing Imps trying to say that the Tau are evil nazies when the Imperium exterminates entire populations for nothing. Does Armageddon ring any bells? Besides Brightsword had his command taken away from him.

"General! You forgot your Earl Grey back in the trenches!"
"What!? Send the 5th regiment forward to retake my tea!"
"But sir the Iron warriors have fortifie" `BAM´
"Forward men, For the Emperor who has exterminated countless xeno and human civilisations!"

I lol'ed, true story bro.

Nom

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

"Hey! On page 42 of the Tau Empire codex, second paragraph, the Tau purged a system of "the hateful Reek." I'm not sure that is proper xenocide, but the idea is there."

That's conquest. "Purged from the system" and "butchered the species to an individual" are quite different.

Also, the sterilization thing didn't happen. It was stated in the non-canonical tau victory of DoW that the human population dropped significantly. Great, a non canon source that speculates about sterilization. Even though there is the problem of men and women being separated.


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@1hadhq, probably not a good idea to argue about kroot fluff wit the only kroot mercs player who is also a dakka regular.

nomsheep wrote:Hives are billions of people forced into the samecouple of spires, and generally tosix to anyone who steps outside them meaning you are trapped inside. how can any of them be nice?


Nom

Again with generalizations . Check out FFG books, they have Hive worlds that are polluted but you can go outside, they have Hive worlds that are not wastelands. Although its more planet with Hive city than true Hive World in FFG's case. The Shira Calpurnia books also show otherwise.

Yarrickshad wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote: Blah blah blah. People like you use the rpg and video games to hit on the Imperium but when we use it. The screams of non-canon comes in. What hypocrisy. Oh it is canon, for 40k everything is canon so get over it. A codex says it, you can't just ignore it.

Err, I haven't used any game or RPG material to attack any other faction so your accusations are A) wrong and B) just plain rude. Your attitude towards me was unnecessary, I have played Imperial Guard for the last 6 years and Space Marines for 4 and have been a fan of the Imperium so please look at your facts before attacking me.

I apologize to you if you think I was attacking you. I meant in general seeing as Tau fans that I've met will ignore fluff that makes their 'Mary sue' not pure goodness whle use the same fluff to beat down on all other factions and that pisses me off.

Eumerin wrote:
Perhaps because the Kroot and Vespid don't have a ridiculously huge Empire waiting in the wings to "assist" any troublemakers of their own race on Tau worlds. Or perhaps because humanity is, for some reason, more inclined to think of "self" over "greater good" than the other races in question are.


Edit - I should add that I've never quite understood why people get so worked up over the idea of selective brainwashing and sterilization by the Tau. When I read the relevant sections in Deathwatch, the first thing that popped into my head was, "Of course they do that."

[Sarcasm]Because the Tau are perfect and pure goodness![/Sarcasm]

Space Crusader wrote:Real fun seing Imps trying to say that the Tau are evil nazies when the Imperium exterminates entire populations for nothing. Does Armageddon ring any bells? Besides Brightsword had his command taken away from him.

"General! You forgot your Earl Grey back in the trenches!"
"What!? Send the 5th regiment forward to retake my tea!"
"But sir the Iron warriors have fortifie" `BAM´
"Forward men, For the Emperor who has exterminated countless xeno and human civilisations!"

Armageddon was done because the Inquisition feared and with some good reason that the population might be tainted by Chaos and also to keep the secret of the Daemon Primarch Angron. I'm sure that if the Tau had some great secret that had to be hidden and if some people found about that secret but where not supposed to would. They would disappear.

Next no IG commander sends their IG regiments to die so as to recapture tea. But continue spewing that lie. What the Emp did was not particularly abhorrent by the standards of the 40k galaxy. Many races when the Human civ of the DAoT fall used that chance to invade human space or expand with bad consequences for other races.

My entire position has been to make the Tau a lesser evil and not pure good but lesser in evil when compared to Eldar or Imperium. But Tau fans want only pure goodness Tau.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

"Hey! On page 42 of the Tau Empire codex, second paragraph, the Tau purged a system of "the hateful Reek." I'm not sure that is proper xenocide, but the idea is there."

That's conquest. "Purged from the system" and "butchered the species to an individual" are quite different.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Maybe the "hateful Reek" were spacefaring but the Tau wanted the system and planet and thus to take it had to get rid of the Reek by Exterminating them.

Corporal_Reznov posted.

My entire position has been to make the Tau a lesser evil and not pure good but lesser in evil when compared to Eldar or Imperium. But Tau fans want only pure goodness Tau.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Maybe the "hateful Reek" were spacefaring but the Tau wanted the system and planet and thus to take it had to get rid of the Reek by Exterminating them.

Have a few assumptions of your own there.

Tau are not a lesser evil or pure good, but a more rational alternative to most of the races in 40k including in my opinion the IoM, fewer swords and more guns, makes my sci-fi happier, I have never seen them as pure goodness and am a Tau fan, but I respect what little fluff there is even if most of it is from the imperial perspective.
So watch the generalities of statements, there are some who would never have their prespective favorites do any wrong tau/IoM or otherwise, and as far as I am concerned Eldar and Humans are no more or possible less "good" than the Tau, but thats my opinion, and a big factor in why I dont play them anymore.

For me half the fun of this game is the modeling and fluff and the little imaginary stories the games sometimes conjure up in my troubled mind, and I like my Tau stories better since it can be a bit more varied, then just kill everyone not us!

And as to the Hateful Reek well the one sentence is all we or anyone knows about them, they could have been fuzzy bunnies, or like the Aliens Ripley had to nuke..we dont know, but based on Tau practices we do know is, they could not be reasoned with or allied with hence the purging of the Reek...and with a name like Reek who can blame the Tau.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

"Hey! On page 42 of the Tau Empire codex, second paragraph, the Tau purged a system of "the hateful Reek." I'm not sure that is proper xenocide, but the idea is there."

That's conquest. "Purged from the system" and "butchered the species to an individual" are quite different.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Maybe the "hateful Reek" were spacefaring but the Tau wanted the system and planet and thus to take it had to get rid of the Reek by Exterminating them.

Yeah, but then you're getting into suppostions and theories and that's somewhere you're usually better off not straying.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

nomsheep wrote:Hives are billions of people forced into the samecouple of spires, and generally tosix to anyone who steps outside them meaning you are trapped inside. how can any of them be nice?


Nom

Again with generalizations . Check out FFG books, they have Hive worlds that are polluted but you can go outside, they have Hive worlds that are not wastelands. Although its more planet with Hive city than true Hive World in FFG's case. The Shira Calpurnia books also show otherwise.

Yarrickshad wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote: Blah blah blah. People like you use the rpg and video games to hit on the Imperium but when we use it. The screams of non-canon comes in. What hypocrisy. Oh it is canon, for 40k everything is canon so get over it. A codex says it, you can't just ignore it.

Err, I haven't used any game or RPG material to attack any other faction so your accusations are A) wrong and B) just plain rude. Your attitude towards me was unnecessary, I have played Imperial Guard for the last 6 years and Space Marines for 4 and have been a fan of the Imperium so please look at your facts before attacking me.

I apologize to you if you think I was attacking you. I meant in general seeing as Tau fans that I've met will ignore fluff that makes their 'Mary sue' not pure goodness whle use the same fluff to beat down on all other factions and that pisses me off.

Eumerin wrote:
Perhaps because the Kroot and Vespid don't have a ridiculously huge Empire waiting in the wings to "assist" any troublemakers of their own race on Tau worlds. Or perhaps because humanity is, for some reason, more inclined to think of "self" over "greater good" than the other races in question are.


Edit - I should add that I've never quite understood why people get so worked up over the idea of selective brainwashing and sterilization by the Tau. When I read the relevant sections in Deathwatch, the first thing that popped into my head was, "Of course they do that."

[Sarcasm]Because the Tau are perfect and pure goodness![/Sarcasm]

Space Crusader wrote:Real fun seing Imps trying to say that the Tau are evil nazies when the Imperium exterminates entire populations for nothing. Does Armageddon ring any bells? Besides Brightsword had his command taken away from him.

"General! You forgot your Earl Grey back in the trenches!"
"What!? Send the 5th regiment forward to retake my tea!"
"But sir the Iron warriors have fortifie" `BAM´
"Forward men, For the Emperor who has exterminated countless xeno and human civilisations!"

Armageddon was done because the Inquisition feared and with some good reason that the population might be tainted by Chaos and also to keep the secret of the Daemon Primarch Angron. I'm sure that if the Tau had some great secret that had to be hidden and if some people found about that secret but where not supposed to would. They would disappear.

Next no IG commander sends their IG regiments to die so as to recapture tea. But continue spewing that lie. What the Emp did was not particularly abhorrent by the standards of the 40k galaxy. Many races when the Human civ of the DAoT fall used that chance to invade human space or expand with bad consequences for other races.

My entire position has been to make the Tau a lesser evil and not pure good but lesser in evil when compared to Eldar or Imperium. But Tau fans want only pure goodness Tau.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

"Hey! On page 42 of the Tau Empire codex, second paragraph, the Tau purged a system of "the hateful Reek." I'm not sure that is proper xenocide, but the idea is there."

That's conquest. "Purged from the system" and "butchered the species to an individual" are quite different.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Maybe the "hateful Reek" were spacefaring but the Tau wanted the system and planet and thus to take it had to get rid of the Reek by Exterminating them.

Imp generals send men over minefields, send men without support to assault fortresses and are usssually murdered by the Imperium for dumb reasons.
"The 5th Cadian saw a bit of a chaos shoulderpad today. They thought it was a piece of a Tank so I dont think there is any to worry about."
"Are you kidding me? We must put exterminatus on the entire system!"
"Why Lord Inquisitor?"
"Because I can expendable servant 1337!"

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Have a few assumptions of your own there.

Tau are not a lesser evil or pure good, but a more rational alternative to most of the races in 40k including in my opinion the IoM, fewer swords and more guns, makes my sci-fi happier, I have never seen them as pure goodness and am a Tau fan, but I respect what little fluff there is even if most of it is from the imperial perspective.
So watch the generalities of statements, there are some who would never have their prespective favorites do any wrong tau/IoM or otherwise, and as far as I am concerned Eldar and Humans are no more or possible less "good" than the Tau, but thats my opinion, and a big factor in why I dont play them anymore.

For me half the fun of this game is the modeling and fluff and the little imaginary stories the games sometimes conjure up in my troubled mind, and I like my Tau stories better since it can be a bit more varied, then just kill everyone not us!

I apologize if you're offended by my statement. I don't think you're like that. You make sane posts without any trolling .

And as to the Hateful Reek well the one sentence is all we or anyone knows about them, they could have been fuzzy bunnies, or like the Aliens Ripley had to nuke..we dont know, but based on Tau practices we do know is, they could not be reasoned with or allied with hence the purging of the Reek...and with a name like Reek who can blame the Tau.

It would still be extermination and thus Xenocide though.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Yeah, but then you're getting into suppostions and theories and that's somewhere you're usually better off not straying.

Agree but the idea is there.

Space Crusader wrote:
Imp generals send men over minefields, send men without support to assault fortresses and are usssually murdered by the Imperium for dumb reasons.
"The 5th Cadian saw a bit of a chaos shoulderpad today. They thought it was a piece of a Tank so I dont think there is any to worry about."
"Are you kidding me? We must put exterminatus on the entire system!"
"Why Lord Inquisitor?"
"Because I can expendable servant 1337!"

Obvious troll is obvious.

First that guy your describing is not a general, he's a Commander who personally leads from the front. Next, Star Wars has a Commander Chenkov in the form of an alien [bJedi[/b] named Krell whose idea of winning battles is to send his clone soldiers to their deaths in full-frontal assaults for seemingly everything while staying away from the frontlines and he fights for the Good guys. And yet no-one anywhere who is sane would claim that all Jedi generals have the same commanding style as Krell, would they?

Other than that your posts are just blah and blah.

No offence taken, it just seems every thread that has Tau mentioned in it always leads to attacks on them and the people who play them, and it gets very tiresome to constantly defend them from every pro-empire poster, my theory is Tau are part of the 40k universe now, and for my part a welcome one, so love em hate them just get over it and lets have fun with the fluff and models.

And as to the Reek, not saying the Tau did not wipe them out, just saying they likely had a very good reason for doing it, not that the IoM would need any reason other than, "Ew its a xenos...shoot it " to wipe out anything they found.

Tau just exhibit a bit or at least some restraint, since even 6k years in the past the IoM discovered the then primitive Tau and marked them for routine cleansing and colonization of their world ...ROUTINE...IoM finds a race not human and just cleanses them.
no wonder why no body likes them .

At any rate I appreciate the retraction and the sentiment.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Have a few assumptions of your own there.

Tau are not a lesser evil or pure good, but a more rational alternative to most of the races in 40k including in my opinion the IoM, fewer swords and more guns, makes my sci-fi happier, I have never seen them as pure goodness and am a Tau fan, but I respect what little fluff there is even if most of it is from the imperial perspective.
So watch the generalities of statements, there are some who would never have their prespective favorites do any wrong tau/IoM or otherwise, and as far as I am concerned Eldar and Humans are no more or possible less "good" than the Tau, but thats my opinion, and a big factor in why I dont play them anymore.

For me half the fun of this game is the modeling and fluff and the little imaginary stories the games sometimes conjure up in my troubled mind, and I like my Tau stories better since it can be a bit more varied, then just kill everyone not us!

I apologize if you're offended by my statement. I don't think you're like that. You make sane posts without any trolling .

And as to the Hateful Reek well the one sentence is all we or anyone knows about them, they could have been fuzzy bunnies, or like the Aliens Ripley had to nuke..we dont know, but based on Tau practices we do know is, they could not be reasoned with or allied with hence the purging of the Reek...and with a name like Reek who can blame the Tau.

It would still be extermination and thus Xenocide though.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Yeah, but then you're getting into suppostions and theories and that's somewhere you're usually better off not straying.

Agree but the idea is there.

Space Crusader wrote:
Imp generals send men over minefields, send men without support to assault fortresses and are usssually murdered by the Imperium for dumb reasons.
"The 5th Cadian saw a bit of a chaos shoulderpad today. They thought it was a piece of a Tank so I dont think there is any to worry about."
"Are you kidding me? We must put exterminatus on the entire system!"
"Why Lord Inquisitor?"
"Because I can expendable servant 1337!"

Obvious troll is obvious.

First that guy your describing is not a general, he's a Commander who personally leads from the front. Next, Star Wars has a Commander Chenkov in the form of an alien [bJedi[/b] named Krell whose idea of winning battles is to send his clone soldiers to their deaths in full-frontal assaults for seemingly everything while staying away from the frontlines and he fights for the Good guys. And yet no-one anywhere who is sane would claim that all Jedi generals have the same commanding style as Krell, would they?

Other than that your posts are just blah and blah.

Ignoring my facts are we? Typical spesh mahren fanboi.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:No offence taken, it just seems every thread that has Tau mentioned in it always leads to attacks on them and the people who play them, and it gets very tiresome to constantly defend them from every pro-empire poster, my theory is Tau are part of the 40k universe now, and for my part a welcome one, so love em hate them just get over it and lets have fun with the fluff and models.

And as to the Reek, not saying the Tau did not wipe them out, just saying they likely had a very good reason for doing it, not that the IoM would need any reason other than, "Ew its a xenos...shoot it " to wipe out anything they found.

Tau just exhibit a bit or at least some restraint, since even 6k years in the past the IoM discovered the then primitive Tau and marked them for routine cleansing and colonization of their world ...ROUTINE...IoM finds a race not human and just cleanses them.
no wonder why no body likes them .

At any rate I appreciate the retraction and the sentiment.

As for the reason for wiping out the reek, for all we know they could have been agents of chaos like the laer. With no context we cannot say whether or not the tau commited a sin there, and even is the Reek were super happy best friends to everyone, it would still be the only instance of them doing so...unlike the IoM...ROUTINE!.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:No offence taken, it just seems every thread that has Tau mentioned in it always leads to attacks on them and the people who play them, and it gets very tiresome to constantly defend them from every pro-empire poster, my theory is Tau are part of the 40k universe now, and for my part a welcome one, so love em hate them just get over it and lets have fun with the fluff and models.

Understood.

And as to the Reek, not saying the Tau did not wipe them out, just saying they likely had a very good reason for doing it, not that the IoM would need any reason other than, "Ew its a xenos...shoot it " to wipe out anything they found.

Actually the Imperium isn't always Xenos shoot it, too. It depends.

Tau just exhibit a bit or at least some restraint, since even 6k years in the past the IoM discovered the then primitive Tau and marked them for routine cleansing and colonization of their world ...ROUTINE...IoM finds a race not human and just cleanses them.

Like this. The Imperium wanted the planet for its population and thus wanted to get rid of the current inhabitants. To the Imperium that is a good reason which the Eldar do as well with the inhabitants of Eldar Maiden worlds.

no wonder why no body likes them .

Almost everyone in 40k hate each other or have disdain for the other. Particularly the Eldar and Imperium who have great disdain for what they consider lower lifeforms which is everyone else.

At any rate I appreciate the retraction and the sentiment.

Your welcome. You don't appear to be a bad guy nor the type of prick(I mean the Tau fans) I usualy have to deal with. Have a good life!

Space Crusader wrote:
Ignoring my facts are we? Typical spesh mahren fanboi.

What facts? All you've been doing is trolling. BTW I'm an Ork player.

Other than that, go Screw yourself fool.