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MeanGreenStompa wrote:kronk, the rape of 10 year old children isn't a viable target for comedy mate. Let's leave that out of the thread or it's going to go downhill rapidly.

Agreed.

Apologies, all. Post edited.

One of the interesting questions of fact in this incident is the nature of the reporting.

According to the eyewitness, he gave a graphic account to Joe.

Joe says he got a vague account, and related a very vague account to his boss.

That seems relevant, because if the game of telephone turned "I saw an anal rape" into "there was a report of inappropriate behavior..." that seems inappropriate.

Wow! Even Dakka is fighting over this controversial issue.

The entire state of Pennsylvania is arguing over this position... and I have argued enough about it myself.

Paterno did what was required, based off of Pennsylvania law. However in his contract there is a child protection act in which he is to call child services should it be necessary. Which it was necessary when he found out that the university was not investigating into the incident. Hence he violated his contract. I wished he didn't go out like this but unfortunately even great men can make mistakes and they come back and get them.

Joe Paterno reported it to the head of Campus police and nothing happened.
Sandusky no longer worked for JoPa in 2002, what did you want him to do...fire him?

I hope at least we can reach an agreement that the child molester is a terrible piece of filth. The fact that he was skilled as a football coach does absolute zero to change this in the slightest.

Necroshea wrote:I hope at least we can reach an agreement that the child molester is a terrible piece of filth. The fact that he was skilled as a football coach does absolute zero to change this in the slightest.

Yep, who wants to take bets on how long he survives. I think there are a few hundred Penn State students that want his head for what he did to the children and Joe.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:So if he reported it and never saw anything come of it he's totally in the clear?

If he reported it to the police and then to his boss AND HR through proper formal channels then yes. Otherwise no.

Frazzled wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:So if he reported it and never saw anything come of it he's totally in the clear?

If he reported it to the police and then to his boss AND HR through proper formal channels then yes. Otherwise no.

All he would have needed to do was call police... his legend could continue. Damn... 5 minutes to call the police and this would have all been different.

Now that the big wigs are outta the way we can get to helping the families.

Frazzled wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:So if he reported it and never saw anything come of it he's totally in the clear?

If he reported it to the police and then to his boss AND HR through proper formal channels then yes. Otherwise no.

EDIT not pussy campus rent a cops. Real cops with real guns.

Does remind me of European rival soccar fans after a game though

Frazzled wrote:

EDIT not pussy campus rent a cops. Real cops with real guns.

I laugh at those campus cops however they have the mean looking dodge charger, so i don't laugh too loudly.

(thanks kronk)

Re reporting it.
Well, therein lies the damning or saving graces regarding Paterno, to my mind.

If the campus police got back to him and said 'naw, trumped up bs, the guy made up the allegation' then fine, Paterno did what he had to and those he reported to should be strung up.

If he said 'this guy says kids are being sodomized here, you need to do something' and then nothing ever came back to him about it and the rapist was still working with the children, then he should have taken things further and made more noise about it.

These crimes went on over a decade.

Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:

Necroshea wrote:I hope at least we can reach an agreement that the child molester is a terrible piece of filth. The fact that he was skilled as a football coach does absolute zero to change this in the slightest.

Yep, who wants to take bets on how long he survives. I think there are a few hundred Penn State students that want his head for what he did to the children and Joe.

Er... assuming the allegations are true, the coach brought it upon himself.

Frazzled wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:So if he reported it and never saw anything come of it he's totally in the clear?

If he reported it to the police and then to his boss AND HR through proper formal channels then yes. Otherwise no.

EDIT not pussy campus rent a cops. Real cops with real guns.

Maybe it's different where you live but here the Campus Police are real cops with real guns, and work in concert with the surrounding agencies like any other municipal police force. Yes there are the fat kids on segways too.

AustonT wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:So if he reported it and never saw anything come of it he's totally in the clear?

If he reported it to the police and then to his boss AND HR through proper formal channels then yes. Otherwise no.

EDIT not pussy campus rent a cops. Real cops with real guns.

Maybe it's different where you live but here the Campus Police are real cops with real guns, and work in concert with the surrounding agencies like any other municipal police force. Yes there are the fat kids on segways too.

Who pays them?

The state, or the university?

If the university pays them then they are not real cops.

It's fairly obvious that Paterno knew, as did many others.

And this story isn't remotely over yet. A couple of Pittsburgh reporters tweeted last night that there's worse stuff to come. The rumor is pretty horrific. Keywords are "Second Mile" (Sandusky's charity), "kids", and "money." Hope to God it isn't true.

"Campus Police" generally refers to employees of the university, whether it's a private security firm hired by the university for doing security work or an actual security force for the campus with individuals screened and hired for that purpose.

There's also "campus Police" which are sworn law enforcement officers of the state/local government who are assigned to be what amounts to a link between the university's private police force and the public's police force.

Campus Police sometimes go out of their way to keep the campus Police in the dark if it's in the university's best interest, and the campus Police may not necessarily be the most reliable individual in some circumstances either.

gorgon wrote:It's fairly obvious that Paterno knew, as did many others.

And this story isn't remotely over yet. A couple of Pittsburgh reporters tweeted last night that there's worse stuff to come. The rumor is pretty horrific. Keywords are "Second Mile" (Sandusky's charity), "kids", and "money." Hope to God it isn't true.

I expect as much.

It's entirely likely this will lead to a pedophile ring and an iceburg situation of many children abused. He also adopted many children and was involved in several children's charities.

I can speak from personal experience. Campus cops are pawns of the university that pays them. If the university wants something quite and campus cops will keep it quiet.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Who pays them?

The state, or the university?

If the university pays them then they are not real cops.

Utter nonsense. By this logic neither city police or sheriffs are "real" cops.

Kanluwen wrote:"Campus Police" generally refers to employees of the university, whether it's a private security firm hired by the university for doing security work or an actual security force for the campus with individuals screened and hired for that purpose.

There's also "campus Police" which are sworn law enforcement officers of the state/local government who are assigned to be what amounts to a link between the university's private police force and the public's police force.

Campus Police sometimes go out of their way to keep the campus Police in the dark if it's in the university's best interest, and the campus Police may not necessarily be the most reliable individual in some circumstances either.

I'm not sure the difference in punctuation is what you think it is.
For my part I only know the Campus police from Arizona and Montana state universities. Both employ sworn officers and have agreements with surrounding agencies allowing the Campus police to enforce state law off campus and local PD to enforce state law on campus, each only enforcing thier own specific laws individually.

My lazy Wikipedia link.
Campus Police or University police in the United States and Canada are often sworn police officers employed by a public school district, college or university to protect the campus and surrounding areas and the people who live on, work on and visit it.

The thing you're referring to is what's commonly called "School Resource Officers" when you talk about the public school systems.

My old university did not have "security officers", they had Campus Police. Sworn law enforcement officers, paid by the State of Oklahoma. Can pull you over and arrest you, write citations, and carry fancy guns on their belts.

The hospital that I work for is located on a university campus. They have a "campus security" who are not armed, do not have badges, and whose jacket says "security" on the back. They also have a "campus police" who are again sworn police officers, armed and everything. My hospital is actually a federal facility (and we have federal police officers of our own) and when gak hits the fan they will call on the University PD (which some are accusing of being rent-a-cops) to provide backup.

Most municipalities are actually pretty strict on who can call themselves "police"....

Kanluwen wrote:The thing you're referring to is what's commonly called "School Resource Officers" when you talk about the public school systems.

You are mistaken sir. We aren't talking about High School here.

Penn State Police Department wrote:
The University Police is governed by a state statute that gives our officers the same authority as municipal police officers.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

gorgon wrote:It's fairly obvious that Paterno knew, as did many others.

And this story isn't remotely over yet. A couple of Pittsburgh reporters tweeted last night that there's worse stuff to come. The rumor is pretty horrific. Keywords are "Second Mile" (Sandusky's charity), "kids", and "money." Hope to God it isn't true.

I expect as much.

It's entirely likely this will lead to a pedophile ring and an iceburg situation of many children abused. He also adopted many children and was involved in several children's charities.

Yep. He didn't just suddenly get urges at age 55.

If this is as big as it appears to be, then a) there were likely many people who knew, and b) it's increasingly implausible that Paterno was in the dark. Especially when it seems that the rumors were floating around in State College for years.

Regarding "reporting to his superiors", JoePa had no real superiors at PSU. It might be hard to understand what kind of power he wielded at PSU and in the commonwealth if you aren't from PA. Back in 2004, the university president went to his house to ask him to retire. Paterno told them it wasn't happening and more or less threw them out of the house. Talkin' about the university president here.

Talk is that the other stuff may come out by the weekend. I have no love for PSU, but I certainly hope it's just rumor mill stuff.

Well, there's little chance that Paterno violated a criminal statute. Even if he did, the statute of limitations would protect him from prosectution.

But that's not the point.

This situation is as old as the legal system itself: what duty does a person have to use his power to prevent harm?

The law has historically been that most people have very little duty to get involved. The morals of society have historically said that to not stop evil is, in itself, immoral.

I think there's some serious soul searching that's being done, but it's being masked by outrage and hatred. The real question for all of us is, "what would I do in that situation."

Not, "what should I do." We all know that. It's easy to do the right thing when there are no consequences.

What this scandal shows is that even a person of great integrity, who stood above the sordid mess that is big college sports for decades, could stand idle during a moral crisis. Which is worrying for all of us, because if somebody like JoPa could falter, who else could?

There's a reason nobody is dicussing Sandusky. He's easy to dismiss as either a monster, a pervert, a very ill man, etc. He's the "other," the abnormal. He's clearly bad.

JoPa isn't. He's, by all accounts, a good man. Caring, generous, loyal. He's what we all want to be. That's why his failing is so hurtful.

Many positions that place you in charge of, or place you in contact with, vulnerable populations are often covered by mandatory reporter laws.

I have called both Child Protective Services and Adult Protective Services more often that I can count. I don't call peoples families, their friends, their bosses, or anything else. I don't even call the local police. I call the statewide hotline, tell them exactly what I learned, and they will take it from there. If they are concerned enough they will have a worker come with the police to remove/arrest pretty damn quickly, if not they will do a normal investigation. I will always err on the side of safety for the potential victim.

I don't know if his position had a legal mandate to report, from news reports it would seem so. But from common sense and an ethical sense, if you are made aware of a crime occurring you report it to the police.

Edit: US Department for Health and Human Services has this summary of state laws. PA is covered on page 43. It talks about "including but not limited to: School administrators, teachers, school nurses, social services workers, daycare center workers, or any other child • care or foster care workers". The question of course would be if this covers universities, or just High School and down.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

AustonT wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:So if he reported it and never saw anything come of it he's totally in the clear?

If he reported it to the police and then to his boss AND HR through proper formal channels then yes. Otherwise no.

EDIT not pussy campus rent a cops. Real cops with real guns.

Maybe it's different where you live but here the Campus Police are real cops with real guns, and work in concert with the surrounding agencies like any other municipal police force. Yes there are the fat kids on segways too.

Who pays them?

The state, or the university?

If the university pays them then they are not real cops.

exactly.

It does seem to be getting away from Joe making a mistake and whether or not he deserved to be fired (obliviously there is a case for both sides) and more about anger at a child molester, and how that anger is channeled. Joe and the entire staff should have to face up to what they are responsible for, but they shouldn't be lumped in with the actual criminal in this situation.

Ahtman wrote:It does seem to be getting away from Joe making a mistake and whether or not he deserved to be fired (obliviously there is a case for both sides) and more about anger at a child molester, and how that anger is channeled. Joe and the entire staff should have to face up to what they are responsible for, but they shouldn't be lumped in with the actual criminal in this situation.

True that, but nor should they be protected for what they didn't do. This was a cover up of serious long term crimes. He may not have had a legal duty to report (I'd argue that one. I can see a good prosecutor seeing if there's criminal conspiracy here) but he had a duty to the school to act appropriately. Fire his ass.

d-usa wrote:MaI don't know if his position had a legal mandate to report, from news reports it would seem so. But from common sense and an ethical sense, if you are made aware of a crime occurring you report it to the police.

Edit: US Department for Health and Human Services has this summary of state laws. PA is covered on page 43. It talks about "including but not limited to: School administrators, teachers, school nurses, social services workers, daycare center workers, or any other child • care or foster care workers". The question of course would be if this covers universities, or just High School and down.

According the article I linked to above, the actual law requires reporting either to the police or to a superior. JoPa certainly did the latter, and arguably the former.