I am honestly at a loss

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**Adam LongWalker**

daedalus wrote:I've never had anyone complain about any 'scratchbuild' stuff I've used, but my group is pretty lax. As GW finally released an actual manticore model that was far superior to my construction, I never tried taking any of it to a tournament. Rule of Cool always applies though.

Agreed. It is one of the things that keep me in the hobby, conversions and scratch building. As stated before what gives scratch builders a bit name are those whom Model for Advantage, which is of course the WAAC mentality. Most however know the rules and abide by the rules of the game that we enjoy playing.

**warboss**

Tlo1048 wrote:
Warpseer wrote:Ork Vehicles made from model cars: Completely unfluffy and absurd looking.

Actually, funny that you mention that, I found a book with all kinds of lost White Dwarf stuff in it, and bought it. You ever hear of Genestealer cult limousines?

Now thats a car right there, hahaha.

@Frogboy13 - Though I would generally agree with you on that, if someone can make a cool looking tank and convert it and paint it up, then I dont mind a walmart tank. Right scale, Cool design, effort, fine by me.

They still get limos if your MajorTom!

**Tlo1048**

Hahahaha thats awesome hahaha

I was considering turning the new nids I have coming in, and some of my plastic IG into a Genestealer cult, just for kicks. Plus, for some unknown reason, I find them really great to look at haha

**Battleworthy Arts**

I don't care where the model came from, but it needs to look awesome. Don't slack... if you are gonna scratchbuild, go the extra mile to dazzle. If it looks as good or better than the actual model, then fantastic.

**Tlo1048**

Battle Ready Studios wrote:I don't care where the model came from, but it needs to look awesome. Don't slack... if you are gonna scratchbuild, go the extra mile to dazzle. If it looks as good or better than the actual model, then fantastic.

Agreed, couldn't have said it better

**Jubear**

Tlo1048 wrote:I completely agree with you!

It still needs to be reasonable. My Rhino has enough room for 5 marines + 2 crew + Commander, plus the wargear to make it useable as a whirlwind, and its only the size of a landraider!

That is a huge difference in foot print and I would not want to play against an army that has some rather clear modeling advantages (you sound like a casual so you prolly dont relise why its a big deal)

**Tlo1048**

Well, being a "Casual" as you call it, I do understand. It gives me a distinct advantage in movement because the size of my vehicle is larger, as well as a larger area of mobile cover.

**Jubear**

I am not using casual like its a dirty word or an insult.

But yeah If someone is going to scratch build that is fine with me but it needs to be the right size and it needs to be quality work.

If the scrathbuild in question dose not meet those requirements then get it the hell of my table.

**marv335**

I entirely discount the "the rhino is too small" argument.
It is possible to fit 10 marines into a rhino.
How do we know?
Because it's been done.
It's been done with the old rhino kit too.

**LunaHound**

marv335 wrote:I entirely discount the "the rhino is too small" argument.
It is possible to fit 10 marines into a rhino.
How do we know?
Because it's been done.
It's been done with the old rhino kit too.

Volume in space does not equate to "fitting"
because lifting the roof off and fitting 10 marines like Tetris isnt realistic anyways.

**Jubear**

LunaHound wrote:
marv335 wrote:I entirely discount the "the rhino is too small" argument.
It is possible to fit 10 marines into a rhino.
How do we know?
Because it's been done.
It's been done with the old rhino kit too.

Volume in space does not equate to "fitting"
because lifting the roof off and fitting 10 marines like Tetris isnt realistic anyways.

Nor are genetic altered super warriors in armor that would not allow them even the most basic range of movement. Sorry It annoys me when folk use the R word in a game populated by the impossible.

**The Grundel**

The problem is when people scratch build stuff not as a form of artistic expression but as a way of saving a petty amount of cash on their models. There is a massive difference between a well converted ork truck, and a toy car with shootas on it.

**LunaHound**

Jubear wrote:
LunaHound wrote:
marv335 wrote:I entirely discount the "the rhino is too small" argument.
It is possible to fit 10 marines into a rhino.
How do we know?
Because it's been done.
It's been done with the old rhino kit too.

Volume in space does not equate to "fitting"
because lifting the roof off and fitting 10 marines like Tetris isnt realistic anyways.

Nor are genetic altered super warriors in armor that would not allow them even the most basic range of movement. Sorry It annoys me when folk use the R word in a game populated by the impossible.

Realism has a part even in wargaming. Same reason why scales are some what realistic as in its not a clown sized Rhino that can fit 1 dred and 30 marines.

And to be fair, augmented DNA manipulated warrior etc etc are possible. So are super tough armor materials. Its sci fi after all.
The movement i blame on the incompetence of the artist, and limit of sculptors.

Realism on the other hand means you don't see Space Marine flying without jump packs via fart boosters.

Either way, arguing you can cram 10 marines in a Rhino justifying the size is just as pointless as my tetris comment.

**Jubear**

I agree that realism has its part even in wargaming just not in 40k.

Or a better way of saying it how do we decide what is realistic in a fantasy world?

**LunaHound**

Jubear wrote:I agree that realism has its part even in wargaming just not in 40k.

Or a better way of saying it how do we decide what is realistic in a fantasy world?

Whether something is plausible or not.

e.g if we have magic missile that can steer an arrow like a boomerang = plausible.

vs

we have an arrow shot by a normal archer without aid of magic, wiggling through trees = silly.

The 2 shouldn't be confused or mixed.

**SagesStone**

Possibly how believable it sounds, but more likely how entertaining the idea is. The restrictions one what is possible are stretched quite far when in a fictional universe.

**Jubear**

LunaHound wrote:
Jubear wrote:I agree that realism has its part even in wargaming just not in 40k.

Or a better way of saying it how do we decide what is realistic in a fantasy world?

Whether something is plausible or not.

e.g if we have magic missile that can steer an arrow like a boomerang = plausible.

vs

we have an arrow shot by a normal archer without aid of magic, wiggling through trees = silly.

The 2 shouldn't be confused or mixed.

Yeah i did a quick google check and there is a distinct lack of real world data on 40k equipment and xenos physiology....and In WHFB nearly every forest can come alive and eat you, Im not going to waste time deciding if an arrow would have enough penetration to punch thru a forest because again I cant find any real world data on blood forests.

**Kilkrazy**

Scratchbuilding and converting are one of the main reasons I play 40K.

**MakeH**

I love scratch builds that are done in modeling spirit in an attempt to create something cool, I despise them when done in half-ass way to save a few silly dollars. If I scratch built something using a lot of time, effort and perhaps even money doing it, I would not take it well if my local store manager would tell me I am not allowed to use it in the (GW) store. I would most likely flip out and file a complaint, which might be filed in the rubbish bin... but still.

**BlapBlapBlap**

Those Limos just look... weird

I've seen a model conversion for orks warbuggie made with a model car in the gallery. Its super long, and I'm sure anyone would disagree playing it. Turn it on its side and you would have a massive shield. Even if it was wrecked

**Da Boss**

I dislike scratchbuilding, but being a long time Ork player, I was forced to do it for a long time as GW couldn't be arsed providing the correct models.

So I will continue to use my scratchbuilds, since I put time into them, and often purchased another tank to use as a base. I am not buying more stuff.

**Jon Garrett**

I think Orks are one of the armies that should Scratch Build if possible. So long as the person can do a better job than box with wheels, anyway. It looks more Orkish and ramshackle to have one 'Proper' Battle Wagon, one looted Land Raider Battle Wagon, one totally scratch built but decent looking Wagon...

**Da Boss**

I use the small squiggoth from forgeworld as a 'wagon with deffrolla. Works pretty well.
My scratch built wagon is a bit wider than the new model, but I feel that isn't really my fault since GW never give any guidelines for any of this stuff.

**MrMerlin**

Jon Garrett wrote:I think Orks are one of the armies that should Scratch Build if possible. So long as the person can do a better job than box with wheels, anyway. It looks more Orkish and ramshackle to have one 'Proper' Battle Wagon, one looted Land Raider Battle Wagon, one totally scratch built but decent looking Wagon...

yeah, it'd look really tupid if you used three simiar vehicles

edit

and thats why i dislike the loota models and made my own, scratchbiult ones

mind to have a look?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/409193.page

**Paul**

Jon Garrett wrote:I think Orks are one of the armies that should Scratch Build if possible. So long as the person can do a better job than box with wheels, anyway. It looks more Orkish and ramshackle to have one 'Proper' Battle Wagon, one looted Land Raider Battle Wagon, one totally scratch built but decent looking Wagon...

Agreed. I have one truck and every other truck is looted in some way, a rhino, a chimera, a scratch built one i am working on atm. Having all your trucks look the same is just not orky.

**Tlo1048**

Okay, so what if a fairly new player came in, and you could tell he was really excited and really proud of something he had built, even if it looked like utter crap, but you could tell had time invested it, would you tell him to, quote, "Get it the hell off my table"?

I realize that there is feasibly no way to allow EVERYONE to play their scratchbuilds, because honestly, some look like utter junk. But I believe its more about the quality, and the effort put forth.

@Jubear - You may not have meant "Casual" in a derogatory way, but it displays a type of elitism that, for the sake of this thread, I'd like to ask respectfully if you could keep that out of the conversation. Its a slippery slope that leads to taking people for grantite. Take GW for example.

EDIT: And yes, I realize you're from Australia which means you've sacrificed way more than alot of people in just the amount of money. But I would think that would mena you'd be MORE supportive of scratchbuilding.

**Grot 6**

Tlo1048 wrote:I have noticed alot that there seems to be a major problem with people and scratchbuilt stuff. Especially when it comes to playing them in a game.

My thoughts on it are that if someone honestly takes the time to build ANYTHING by hand, they deserve to use it. I'm not going to tear someone apart because they dont buy GW all GW products and whatnot. Realizing, that if they aren't contributing at all to GW, then I'm moderately opposed to that, because then they arent contributing to the game.

I think it has become too gung-ho when it comes to this game, because of all the things you have to do to play. I mean, no one attacks scratchbuilt terrain?
For the first 2-3 years of me being into warhammer, I had very few models and HAD to build my own stuff lots of times. And to this day I REFUSE to buy a GW tank, because I find it utterly ridiculous to buy something that is supposed to fit 10 marines in it, and it cant fit any. So i build my own, to truescale.

My question is, how do you guys feel about scratchbuilding GW stuff, and allowing it to be played? For example: Tanks, Titans, Ships, etc.

Thanks!

It all depends on the crowd and the sculpt that your building.

I've seen my fair share of D bag crowds that looked down thier noses at them, and still others that played with emty bases and small balsawood stand ins. ( mid you that it was only to try the "New fig" out before buying, but if it went for more then a couple of games, base player was pretty much ridiculed or hacked on to the point where they either crapped and bought the figure, or got off the pot, and pulled out another trick.

Titans and stuff?

people didn't have an issue playing with Armorcast vehicles, they shouldn't have an issue today. Its part in parcel of the game.

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Kilkrazy wrote:Scratchbuilding and converting are one of the main reasons I play 40K.

Aye same, although more work goes into my terrain these days than the actual armies.

My Orks have a few..

and probably my fave

Okay shes not a vehicle, but she gets the most attention when my army is on display around other gamers, partially as a awesome/wtf moment.

I also have this one being painting at the mo for the Dakka Ork army.

**Slipstream**

Years ago I took part in a game where someone was using a scratchbuilt baneblade, this was years before the plastic version. It was a damn fine model that was brilliantly constructed and didn't look homemade in the slightest. What was funny was seeing it being taken out by an Ork wartrukk with some incredible dice rolls...

**Howard A Treesong**

They one published the plans for a baneblade in WD, it was smaller than the current kit but still very much the same shape.