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Well KOTR are still faster so there!


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12 Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields, Mark of Khorne and FC -champion are about as expensive as a lance (9 KotR).

Forgot about the 5++, correct, so let's assume that basically, the only units left is your command:

4 Attacks (Champion with 2 attacks), 2 hits, wound on 5s => 0,p6 wounds, 4+ sv equals to 0,3 dead Chaos Warriors.

3 horses, 1,5 hits, 0,5 potential wounds, 4+ sv => 0,25 dead Warriors.

So basically, you have a very slight chance to kill a single Chaos Warrior...yeah

I mean, we all know that Brets have an incredibly outdated and underpowered codex (with the exception of those ridiculous S5 stone throwers...), so a comparison might not be fair, but when it comes to a thread like "Best Core", KotR just can't hold up to the real beasts out there.

By 1"


Chaos knights will be striking first and inflicting an average of 6 wounds thatr the Knights only get a 4+ save against, so 3 knights die.

Then the knights have only 11 attacks in return(if they are 4 deep), which is about 5 wounds which the Chaos Knights get a 3+ save against. 1, maybe 2, chaos knights die to 3 Knights of the realm. If the Chaos Knights got the charge, the KotR are boned.

Grey Templar wrote:By 1"


Chaos knights will be striking first and inflicting an average of 6 wounds thatr the Knights only get a 4+ save against, so 3 knights die.

Then the knights have only 11 attacks in return(if they are 4 deep), which is about 5 wounds which the Chaos Knights get a 3+ save against. 1, maybe 2, chaos knights die to 3 Knights of the realm. If the Chaos Knights got the charge, the KotR are boned.

Huh? Chaos Knights have a 1+ (4+ Chaos Armor, +2 Barded Steed, +1 shield) aka 2+.

I feel like no one's played Brets before. You're forgetting the ward save. So they aren't good against hoards, well you've got archers and stone throwers, not to mention the fact that you can charge 3 lances into a hoard all at once.
The comparison of KotR to Chaos Knights though is a bit silly. Chaos costs twice as much and are only about 60% better.

Grey Templar wrote:By 1"


Chaos knights will be striking first and inflicting an average of 6 wounds thatr the Knights only get a 4+ save against, so 3 knights die.

Then the knights have only 11 attacks in return(if they are 4 deep), which is about 5 wounds which the Chaos Knights get a 3+ save against. 1, maybe 2, chaos knights die to 3 Knights of the realm. If the Chaos Knights got the charge, the KotR are boned.

KotR are not boned due to the 5++ AND ranks and steadfast as ranks count in lance

Leith wrote:I feel like no one's played Brets before. You're forgetting the ward save. So they aren't good against hoards, well you've got archers and stone throwers, not to mention the fact that you can charge 3 lances into a hoard all at once.
The comparison of KotR to Chaos Knights though is a bit silly. Chaos costs twice as much and are only about 60% better.

Well excuuuuuuse me: 5 Chaos Knights w/ MoK cost just the same as an entire lance of KotR.

5 Chaos Knights w/ MoK have 15 attacks, 10 hits, 8,p3 potential wounds, 4,1p6 after sv, 2,p7 ~ 3 dead KotR.

KotR strike back with 6 attacks...3 hits, 1,p6 potential wounds, 2+ sv => 0,2p7 ~ 0 losses.

Only 60% better? Not really. They just tear those guys apart.

On a more general point of view: I have played against quite a few Frenchies and most of the time, the only thing that really hurt me were the S5 stone throwers. Archers? 3+ sv. Cavallery ItP. All other units ItP too. You need to watch out for flank charges, but most of the time, it's one of our easier enemies. Maiden with Dwellers can be mad. But then again...GAAATEEEWWAAAAAY! Nothing better than instantly killing that horde of 50 peasants.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

KotR are not boned due to the 5++ AND ranks and steadfast as ranks count in lance

Who cares about Steadfast? They will get slaughtered. Math as seen above. Furthermore: remember that Chaos Knights have fear. And remember that they have Magic Weapons thus might even hurt Ghosts, etc. Remember that we argue in a vaccum. No flank charges etc.

Sigvatr by that math the KotR beat the frenzy out of you do to ranks banner and muso. Sure kill 3 knights but we still win.

Johnny-Crass wrote:Sigvatr by that math the KotR beat the frenzy out of you do to ranks banner and muso. Sure kill 3 knights but we still win.

CK also have a musician or can skip him and get a standard for +10 points (which would be smart, eh)

In the first case, they get +1 for ranks and +1 for standard thus lose by 1. In the second case, they get +1 for ranks and lose by two.

I don't see where you get those 2-3 missing points from...

+3 for ranks (lance is 15/ 3 wide 5 deep)

Johnny-Crass wrote:+3 for ranks (lance is 15/ 3 wide 5 deep)

a) Standard lance is 9 models.

b) 15 KotR cost a lot more than 5 Chaos Knights.

You said entire lance so I just assumed.

Also chaos knights are not core so it is really irrelevant to this thread

Johnny-Crass wrote:You said entire lance so I just assumed.

Also chaos knights are not core so it is really irrelevant to this thread

Yeah, I wonder who brought it up

I'll say Ogres Bulls as well. On top of the the stats, shield save and stomps. They have a 2 in 12 chance of d3 impact hits with strength depending on ranks. I decimated a unit of halberds with my deathstar just from impact hits when I rolled an 11 on the charge distance. Then the BSB hit 'em with the dragonhide banner so they struck last after I killed 7 more. Then, yeah 50 halberdiers just wilted.

Brings a tear of joy to my eyes.

I am struggling to see how KOTR are wounding on 5's against WoC. If we charge which in a vacuum we will, we'll be wounding on 3's

Whoever said Lothern Seaguard... no, just no.
High Elves are famous for having bad core choices.
They cost a mountain of points for strength 3, toughness 3 with weak armor saves and only 1 attack each. Their shooting is S3 without any ability to deal with enemies with toughness, or with armor, or with regeneration or ward saves.

Point cost included:
DE Crossbowmen - Elf stats combined with a 2-shot bow with Armor Piercing for less cost than a HE with a 1-shot no-AP bow. One of the most cost-effective archer cores in the game.

DE Corsairs - can get 3 attacks each with Hatred or 2 Hatred attacks each and handbows. Once you see 30 of them walk up, fire 30 shots into you, get charged, shoot you 30 more times, then attack you 61 times before you can do anything, you'll understand. They have decent armor saves against shooting which makes High Elf troops suck.

Most any skaven troops (Slaves/Clanrats/others) - high initiative, high movement speed, high leadership due to rule, super cost effective.

Marauders - super cheap for Flails which are one of the best weapons in the entire game with the damage of a great weapon but not striking last. Almost everyone should wish their troops all could buy flails. Chaos marks very strong.

Chaos Warriors - great offensive stats and great defensive stats at the same time. Offset a bit by points cost, but unlike overpriced High Elf troops, that extra cost actually helps Chaos Warriors since they don't die in droves to a small spattering of archery or magic missiles.

Can't comment on Bloodletters.

TheBloodGod wrote:Whoever said Lothern Seaguard... no, just no.
High Elves are famous for having bad core choices.
They cost a mountain of points for strength 3, toughness 3 with weak armor saves and only 1 attack each. Their shooting is S3 without any ability to deal with enemies with toughness, or with armor, or with regeneration or ward saves.

Point cost included:
DE Crossbowmen - Elf stats combined with a 2-shot bow with Armor Piercing for less cost than a HE with a 1-shot no-AP bow. One of the most cost-effective archer cores in the game.

DE Corsairs - can get 3 attacks each with Hatred or 2 Hatred attacks each and handbows. Once you see 30 of them walk up, fire 30 shots into you, get charged, shoot you 30 more times, then attack you 61 times before you can do anything, you'll understand. They have decent armor saves against shooting which makes High Elf troops suck.

Most any skaven troops (Slaves/Clanrats/others) - high initiative, high movement speed, high leadership due to rule, super cost effective.

Marauders - super cheap for Flails which are one of the best weapons in the entire game with the damage of a great weapon but not striking last. Almost everyone should wish their troops all could buy flails. Chaos marks very strong.

Chaos Warriors - great offensive stats and great defensive stats at the same time. Offset a bit by points cost, but unlike overpriced High Elf troops, that extra cost actually helps Chaos Warriors since they don't die in droves to a small spattering of archery or magic missiles.

Can't comment on Bloodletters.

This baisicly sums it up, I agree with HE beein rather unlucky with their core choices, althou it all depends on how one uses them. God knows I have been wreacked by HE on several occations.

The Crusader wrote:I am struggling to see how KOTR are wounding on 5's against WoC. If we charge which in a vacuum we will, we'll be wounding on 3's

Not taking any guess-moves in vacuum discussions, could as well say that I won't let you get the charge by hiding behind a corner etc.

Sigvatr wrote:

The Crusader wrote:I am struggling to see how KOTR are wounding on 5's against WoC. If we charge which in a vacuum we will, we'll be wounding on 3's

Not taking any guess-moves in vacuum discussions, could as well say that I won't let you get the charge by hiding behind a corner etc.

Although, KoTR charging Chaos Warriors is the more probable outcome in this scenario so including it in theory hammering is not a very far fetched suggestion. Its not really a con-toss either so throwing it into the mix gives some "valuable" data.

MakeH wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:

The Crusader wrote:I am struggling to see how KOTR are wounding on 5's against WoC. If we charge which in a vacuum we will, we'll be wounding on 3's

Not taking any guess-moves in vacuum discussions, could as well say that I won't let you get the charge by hiding behind a corner etc.

Although, KoTR charging Chaos Warriors is the more probable outcome in this scenario so including it in theory hammering is not a very far fetched suggestion. Its not really a con-toss either so throwing it into the mix gives some "valuable" data.

I think there's a difference between "throwing it into the mix" and stating it as default situation without qualifying the statement.
I have seen many failed charges from knights due to the random charge distance, resulting in the knights getting charged.
Of course, it's not fair to math-hammer it to say that lances never get a strength boost, but it's equally ridiculous to assume every combat involves lances being used.

If on the combats that the knights do get a charge they only do slightly above average, but on the turns they get charged they do abysmal and are run down, that would be an evident bad match-up. In an edition of stubborn units, math-hammer of knights which neglects the possibility of several turns of grinding wouldn't be very useful.

If its a one on one chaos warriors will most likely kill anything.

But it all depends on the roles.

You have to factor in cost ratios. Chaos Warriors are obviously very good, but they're also 25% more expensive than standard Core in most cases.

I just ran the numbers on WoC trolls and they came out unbelievably bad. They're just way too expensive. Though I couldn't factor in Fear, but I also didn't factor in Stupidity. They beat everything, obviously, but they don't beat it for what they cost. O&G Trolls might, but they can't be made Core.

Well if you choose to charge, we could just flee, rally and re try surely. Maybe even get a flank or rear charge

What about the humble dryad? I mean besides never having ranks they pack once fast punch

With double the speed + swiftstride I reckon knights should get the charge on infantry at least 5 times out of 6. The one time knights fail their charge, and the enemy infantry succeed their counter-charge, the knights auto-lose, no question. The other 5 times the knights do alright.

The Crusader wrote:Well if you choose to charge, we could just flee, rally and re try surely. Maybe even get a flank or rear charge

If you flee, you might behave very fluff-like, but lose your 5++.

Johnny-Crass wrote:What about the humble dryad? I mean besides never having ranks they pack once fast punch

Nah. Against most infantry, they face a +3 static CR and are not strong enough to make up for it.

Dryads have an ok punch, but it can't make up for the +3 advantage enemies usually have on them and they arn't tough enough. T4 with a poor save will still take lots of wounds from Str3.

I like Dwarf warriors with Hand weapon shield great stat line and armor cheap!

We need to make this a poll.

I'll make a new thread with one.

Woc trolls are awesome because of they eye of the gods rolls that you get for passing regen saves.
This makes them quite awesome.
Again looking at a unit individually may not make them awesome but it's how they work with the rest of the army.