Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Geneseed can't inbreed. it simply self-replicates.

There isn't a crossing between 2 geneseeds, 1 geneseed makes a full set of implant organs(including 2 new progenoids)

A marine is almost a clone of his predecessor, he still retains a small portion of his original genetics.



i would imagine that geneseed has specilized procedures built into its makeup to prevent it from having the problems associated with normal cloning(mostly the degeneration of the DNA, the DNA of a clone is effectivly the same age as the original donor and as such a Clone may have drastic health problems, namely cancer)

KplKeegan wrote:Socio-theories aside, the Emperor was sexist, obviously.

KplKeegan wrote:The Primarchs, which the Emperor himself created, were all his sons. The Legions that followed the Primarchs were all male. The very Space Marines that came from the Emperor's genes were purposely made masculine.

That does not mean he was sexist. Remember, this was basically a form of asexual reproduction with a male (Himself) as a template. If he had wanted a Primarch or a Space Marine to be female, he would have had to specifically engineered them that way.

The Emperor based the Geneseed on his own genes, the Emperor was male. it would be rather inconvienient to make females based on his genetic make up, Identical X Chromosomes being one issue.

Actually it has to do with the fact that most this was written during an era when it was believed woman should not be in the military. The times dictate original fluff.

Melissia wrote:Basically, space marines are genetically stale-- they are constantly inbreeding with no possibility of EVER having outside genetic material put in (because having different genetic material causes the implantee to die). Eventually, the defects that are effecting some chapters will begin to effect all of them, and there's little they can do about this.

False. Every initiate represents external genetic material. The Progenoids grow to maturity within the subject's body absorbing genetic material and hormonal stimuli from the rest of the implants and the subject himself. Unless they recruit from inbred populations exclusively which is very doubtful as the specimens collected would not likely be pure enough to survive induction even if the marines were dumb enough to try.

This is one of the reasons why they check all of the gene seed for mutation and purity because each initiate introduces some genetic material. The subject's body is not just a farm for gene seed. That wouldn't even really make sense.

What is causing the mutation and impurity in many chapters is the decay and mystification of the actual process of inducting a person and implanting him with the necessary components. The BA and their successors are a very good example of this. Their process relies on the blood of Sanguinius and well...There no new blood of Sanguinius anymore and, to make maters worse, the whole process has become something no longer scientific...Now it's religious/mystical/spiritual/unstable. Each inductee gets his own vampire casket and gets to have all his blood replaced and his implants added over the course of a year during some weird psychedelic dream. I imagine it is not a very pleasant 'trip'

Really, the question is why would they bother making female Space Marines? What advantage could they possibly offer? Manipulating the geneseed to enhance the male form is done in part by by stimulating the generation of certain hormones. Why would you then attempt to do the same, but try and combat the female body's tendencies to create different hormones? Seems like a lot of work just out of some misguided attempt at equal opportunity, lol. The Emperor just did what made sense.

Males are bigger and stronger, in general (Obviously there are plenty of exceptions but at max natural potential for size and strength men win out). That's about it. The better chassis to build a warrior off of for the Emperor. Nothing sexist or anything, just fact. Logic.

Further, there is no reason to create female marines or even attempt to do so.

The Emperor would have to create a whole new species to allow Space Marines to reproduce. Even if they are not sterile currently (Please Lord, do not let this spark a debate) their offspring would be normal humans. All of the things that make them marines are added on artificially. So a female marine still would not allow for marines to be mass produced...Without making them a whole new species Old One style.

Kanluwen wrote:
When Games Workshop considers the translation of "Adeptus Astartes" to mean "Brotherhood/Masters/Lords of the Stars"...I'd say that's covered.

I find it interesting that the entirety of your argument is based on the assumption that the Emperor came up with the name of the dudes before he came up with the dudes themselves.

Rather than, say, the far more likely explanation that he was doing difficult genetic work already, and didn't want to bother trying to retool his own (male) genetic code to make it universally adaptable.

I would guess that the process for creating Marines was past down from the Emperor and that it has not changed drastically since the he was interred in the Golden Throne. I guess it's a case of it's not broken so don't try to fix it.

Just a few quotes on why it possibly hasn't been attempted on females

http://web.archive.org/web/20070121165803/uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/3/

These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte.

http://www.gamehobby.net/subject_indexes/subject_wh40k_space_marines.html

These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests prove successful a candidate becomes a neophyte.

In earlier fluff, as far as I remember, it stated that during the Emperors early genetic experiments it was discovered that the hypnotherapy process required could not reprogram the female mind sufficiently and all further genetic processes were designed for males because of this. Although I cannot find a hard source for this unlike the above, so could have been fanfic.

Grey Templar wrote:The Emperor based the Geneseed on his own genes, the Emperor was male. it would be rather inconvienient to make females based on his genetic make up, Identical X Chromosomes being one issue.

Eh, in the grand scheme of things having identical X Chromosomes would be far less of an issue than having to deal with the kludge that is the Y Chromosome. That thing is a mess.

Slightly off topic, isn't the Emperor a baseline human? No fancy genes or anything, just the supercharged soul of the original shamen?

daveNYC wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Emperor based the Geneseed on his own genes, the Emperor was male. it would be rather inconvienient to make females based on his genetic make up, Identical X Chromosomes being one issue.

Eh, in the grand scheme of things having identical X Chromosomes would be far less of an issue than having to deal with the kludge that is the Y Chromosome. That thing is a mess.

Slightly off topic, isn't the Emperor a baseline human? No fancy genes or anything, just the supercharged soul of the original shamen?

Originally, yes the Emperor was a normal human with a super human psyker soul.

However, he probably used his powers to alter his body and make it immortal. Then he had the bright idea to make some immortal super soldiers based off his genes, so he would have an army that he wouldn't have to constantly worry about rerecruiting replacements for those who die of old age. This would allow him to focus on getting humanity to be safe from the Chaos gods.

In the novel "Rynn's World", you meet a handfull of Crimson Fist acolytes (spelling?) that made it through the trials, but whose body's regected the implants.

If it won't work on all males, and it was designed for males, I imagine it wouldn't work on females.

Just a thought.

Sir Samuel Buca wrote: We all know the Geneseed only works on males, probably a stabilising agent on a codon of the Y chromosome or something along those lines, blah blah blah,
But what I really want to know is, who realised it only worked on men?

It was probably created for males specifically so no one had to realize anything, it just won't do anything (or possibly do something horrible) for a female. If the Y chromosome is needed then geneseed might just remain inert if it's not found?

I guess I'm gettin to the point of asking why debate this? There is no answer since its a piece of fiction lol The majority of the fluff was written in a time where woman werent as prevalent in the military hence why things are the way they are. The fluff mirrors a lot of things of the time it is written just like any novel. The serious thoght put into this by some is kinda mind boggling. The term sexist was even used. So are you also mad Gandalf didnt bring some woman along to Mt Doom?

Draigo wrote:I guess I'm gettin to the point of asking why debate this? There is no answer since its a piece of fiction lol The majority of the fluff was written in a time where woman werent as prevalent in the military hence why things are the way they are. The fluff mirrors a lot of things of the time it is written just like any novel. The serious thoght put into this by some is kinda mind boggling. The term sexist was even used. So are you also mad Gandalf didnt bring some woman along to Mt Doom?

Eh? What?

Didn't they bring that elf chick? With the bow?

GW's official canon Chapters have never included female Space Marines. That doesn't mean they don't exist. The general "person discovers lost technology" plot could well have given some fringe group the technology to make female Space Marines, though it would take an unorthodox Chapter to take advantage of the situation. Generally speaking, if you can think up a sensible reason why your Chapter uses female Marines, go for it.

Just to bring a humorous perspective into this: imagine you pump all that testosterone, steroids, growth hormones, extra organs, and such into a woman, then shave her bald and put her in a suit of power armor. Would you be able to tell she was a woman afterward?

Tauriel? I'm not refering to stragglers who got picked up. The initial company. But debating fiction like its reality is getting kinda strange.

While technically they wouldn't count as Space Marines nothing would prevent the existence of female super soldiers in 40K.
Like its 41,011 the Imperium is pushed back at all fronts. In desperation an radical faction attempts to create super human beings that would surpass the current SM:s. However when the first prototypes emerge they realise that the extra X chromosomes have dominated the Y chromosome and its already too late to start the whole project from the beginning.

Don't even need to have them be 'true' Space Marines. Look at Luther or Kor Phaeron (sp). They were too old for geneseed, so just got implants, grafts, and drugs. No reason why some variation of that couldn't work on women, given enough handwavium to explain how it managed to be developed in the grimdark hidebound future.

I remember way back In a white dwarf that that testostrone was a key factor for the geen seed and was the reason it is mostly planted at the time of puberty in young males.

But in my op I think the big E just did it that way for a reason. He wanted to make an army not a race to replace man someday as would have happened

Ok, I'm going to throw a question to you guys...if there are no female space marines, someone explain the Sisters of Battle, otherwise known as Adepta Sororitas. If their not space marines, what are they? Their considered to be part of the Space Marine Codex for the game, so they have to have the organs that let them use the equipment right?

When you say Space Marine Codex, do you mean the Codex Astartes? Because the SoB have their own (crappy) WD codex.

And they don't have the organs. Technically, anyone can use power armor, or Terminator armor, just with the Space Marines' black carapace, they have much greater control and dexterity over it. Not to mention that they're stronger, faster, taller, more fun at parties, etc.

xaviorbat wrote:Ok, I'm going to throw a question to you guys...if there are no female space marines, someone explain the Sisters of Battle, otherwise known as Adepta Sororitas. If their not space marines, what are they? Their considered to be part of the Space Marine Codex for the game, so they have to have the organs that let them use the equipment right?

They are regular women in (smaller scale than SM) power armour. They are the military arm of the Imperial Church.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas#.Tt03x3JJDIU

True but so do the Blood Angels, could they simply have trained themselves to use their, shall we say, modified power armor to roughly the same skill as a space marine? I havn't been able to locate the codex for them yet to compare stats, so bear with me on that.

xaviorbat wrote:True but so do the Blood Angels, could they simply have trained themselves to use their, shall we say, modified power armor to roughly the same skill as a space marine? I havn't been able to locate the codex for them yet to compare stats, so bear with me on that.

They have lower S and I think BS and I as well, but I can't comment precicely on this as I don't have a copy of the most recent SoB codex.

But gameplay differences won't really show up too much as the models are not to scale, and the stats are only on a 10 point / D6 system.

SoB are highly trained, well motivated troops in great armour, but they are nowhere near as good as Marines. Even the most basic marine will have faster reflexes, better integration with their armour (as the SoB don't have the connection nodes), better armour (in terms of durability and power), greater strength and endurange, etc, than even the best SoB.

Now, I know there's a lot of Fem-Marine hate, I've always liked to imagine that while it's technically impossible some renegade/heretic, probably Fabius Bile, once managed to engineer female marines

Oh Lord in Heaven, you like imagining that?

That could give me nightmares.

daveNYC wrote:When you say Space Marine Codex, do you mean the Codex Astartes? Because the SoB have their own (crappy) WD codex.

And they don't have the organs. Technically, anyone can use power armor, or Terminator armor, just with the Space Marines' black carapace, they have much greater control and dexterity over it. Not to mention that they're stronger, faster, taller, more fun at parties, etc.

You are either confused or completly ignorent of the SoB fluff.


Like the link SilverMK2 showed you, Sisters are just normal humans wearing power armor.

Power Armor can be worn by normal humans, Power armor thats made for normal humans any way.


Space Marine PA has special interfaces that connect to the Marine's neural system, allowing him to feel as if the PA is simply part of his body. a normal human in PA is simply wearing a suit of armor that has servos to power its movements. Marine PA is also more technologically sophisticated then other types of PA, it has inbuilt medical systems that can inject medicine or painkillers if the marine needs some additional help, its fully proofed against the Vaccum of space(some normal PA is too), it has waste recyclers, and finally it has advanced targeting and HUD systems built in to its structure.

AnomanderRake wrote:GW's official canon Chapters have never included female Space Marines. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

Saying they have never included them is one way to put it. The other way is to put it the correct way. They very specifically said they were never made and never existed and can't.

I mean, if somebody wanted to insist their Space Marines were girls, it isn't like I'd refuse to play against them unless they were doused in extra silly sauce. But there's no way I'd acknowledge them as being consistent with the "reality" of the universe. Nearly everything in 40K has been contradicted or retconned at some point. Even the Horus Heresy didn't exist at the dawn of 40K and that's become it's most central event, lol. However, a few things have remained consistent, and spelled out unequivocally over five editions of the game. No girl Marines.

I mean, it's the fluff of the universe. If you don't like it you can do whatever the heck you want, nobody will kick in your door and smash your figures.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, it's the fluff of the universe. If you don't like it you can do whatever the heck you want, nobody will kick in your door and smash your figures.

You never heard about Steve the Wargamer?

He tried to make an army of orks that were loyal to the Imperium. It was amazing, greenstuffed ork sized Guard uniforms, including "Kommissars" as Nobs and all using Imperial equipment.

Then one day, Steve didn't show up to the FLGS. His buddies went looking for him and when they got to his house they found the front door kicked in, all his models were gone, and Steve was in the living room. Well, more like all over the living room... The only thing they found at the scene was an Eversor Assassin model standing in the exact center of the carnage. Steve didn't play any armies that used Eversors...