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Duh, you're right, of course. I have no idea why I forgot about all the other important people. :(
I did think about geneseed destruction, but figured that this wouldn't be as devastating when they can still extract it from Marines in the other Companies.

KingDeath wrote:The question is, why would anyone wish to openly attack a spacemarine chapter? Without a realy good justification such an action would only invite severe censure ( in adition to a realy pissed of chapter of superpsychopaths ).

Wellll ... a "really good justification" always depends on the eye of the beholder, and for the Ecclesiarchy something like "Y U NOT PRAY TO EMPEROR" can be enough already. A lot of Marine Chapters have rather strange rituals and traditions (leftover from the oft-barbarian cultures where they recruit their aspirants) that could easily be regarded as heretical (see: Sons of Malice), and due the Ecclesiarchy's influence on the daily life of virtually anyone in the Imperium - sans the Space Marines - as well as the Chapters' own isolation and potentially troublesome independence, a lot of people might be willing to simply "look the other way".

GW's Armageddon III campaign website wrote:As we are all aware, the Order of the Argent Shroud are renowned for their mandate of regulating the activities of not just members of the Ecclesiarchy, but of other Imperial organisations they come into contact with as well. Whilst I appreciate their dedication and success at rooting out traitors and dissenters within our midst, the effect upon the general morale of any fighting arm during their investigations almost always depreciates as their purges continue.

We may be fortunate that incumbent Canoness Carmina is a little less zealous than her predecessors, particularly where the Adeptus Astartes are concerned. I recommend you consult Imperial record Ref: Jan/44698822/SMG regarding the attacks on the forward bases of the Angels Vermillion whilst the Order was under the leadership of Canoness Dissenta.

That said, I'm sure that any political fallout that may or may not result from attacking a Marine Chapter also depends a lot on the history and reputation of the Astartes in question. How reliable is the Chapter when requested to aid an Imperial world in distress? How does the Inquisition think about them? What is known about their Chapter rites or potential deviations from the Imperial Creed? What is the extent of their geneseed mutation? How well are they connected to other Marine Chapters? You get the idea.
Conflict is usually temporary, though. At least in case of the Ecclesiarchy, the 2E SoB Codex noted that there is some friction that occasionally devolves into skirmishes, but this is usually resolved quickly by means of diplomacy from the higher ups before both organizations return to their weird relationship of distrust and grudging respect.

Necroagogo wrote:Wasn't one entire Chapter annihilated after the Necron tomb world on which they'd unwittingly built their fortress-monastery woke up? Can't remember the name but iirc it's mentioned in the SM 'dex.

The Emperors swords. I know it's mentioned in the Necron codex, not sure about the SM dex.

The Silver Skulls don't get outright destroyed, but there wasn't much left when they fled from the Lazar system after fighting the Necrons.

The Necrons really put the beat down on a few different chapters in their codex.

EDIT Poor grammar.

DPBellathrom wrote:just throw mephiston in there and tell him that they all called him a pussy

I agree. Also the Lamanters have almost been wiped out due to having very unlucky battles an always dying.

KingDeath wrote:

McNinja wrote:So basically the only way to kill off a chapter is either by the Tyranids or Inquisition. When your allies are one of the few things that can kill off a chapter, it would seem like never going near them ever at all would be a good thing to do.

Well, there are several imperial organisations which all have sufficient power to take on a chapter. We can start with the ecclesiarchy ( wars of faith ), the Imperial Navy ( high ranking admirals are extremely powerful individuals ), other chapters of course, the Inquisition and perhaps even particularly powerful Rogue Trader Dynasties.
The question is, why would anyone wish to openly attack a spacemarine chapter? Without a realy good justification such an action would only
invite severe censure ( in adition to a realy pissed of chapter of superpsychopaths ).

To be perfectly honest, without their plot armor almost any Imperial organization larger than a single guard infantry regiment should be able to deal with a single chapter, which has an equivalent strength of about 2-6 regiments of infantry, at the most (disregarding those who ignore the whole 1000 limit). Of course, since a chapter is so spread out, it's unlikely that any but the largest organizations could muster a sufficient net to catch all of them, though on the plus side that means any given concentration may as well be so much paper.

I did a poll awhile back. Most people seem to think that a SM is worth 10 or 100 guards men.

Using those numbers, you would only need 10 regiments or just one regiment.

Overall it dosen't really seem that hard to destroy a chapter by themselves.

1 marine may account for 10 guardsmen but i'd lay odds that 10 marines could easily beat 100 guardsmen...
After that you need more and more guardsmen as you get more marines...

purplefood wrote:1 marine may account for 10 guardsmen but i'd lay odds that 10 marines could easily beat 100 guardsmen...
After that you need more and more guardsmen as you get more marines...

The number of SM is 1000. How many guardsmen do you think we need.

purplefood wrote:1 marine may account for 10 guardsmen but i'd lay odds that 10 marines could easily beat 100 guardsmen...
After that you need more and more guardsmen as you get more marines...

So the logic is that more Marines you have the more power you need to stop them. ( same like the Guard )
Black Tempalrs are pleased with this post.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:1 marine may account for 10 guardsmen but i'd lay odds that 10 marines could easily beat 100 guardsmen...
After that you need more and more guardsmen as you get more marines...

So the logic is that more Marines you have the more power you need to stop them. ( same like the Guard )
Black Tempalrs are pleased with this post.

I wouldn't get too hasty...
There were some low ball numbers that got crunched and the short story is that the guard have enough man power to litterally crush every single marine... as in squash them dead... through weight... not weight of numbers, actual weight, kilograms and such...

Canonically, one marine is equal to twelve guardsmen, and if anything I'd think it was the Guard that scaled faster the more you gather, because in addition to overwhelming numbers of basic infantry, with lasguns and grenades, you also have an increasing number of support weapons capable of cutting straight through power armor, as well as artillery, IFVs, and swarms of the best main battle tank in the entire setting. Then there's the fact that each armored regiment has several baneblades, in addition to it's dozens of Leman Russes...

Probably why 100 Marines are then equal to "only" 1.000 normal troops, if you follow Rogal Dorn's assessment. Likely not yet including any artillery or air support on either side, though.

Not that there is any consistency between the various assessments of a Marine's fighting power. Depending entirely on the source you look at, a single Marine can be equal to 10 normal men or a thousand.

Or 20.000, if you read the BS that Merrett spouts from time to time when he's hyperventilating about how awesome his Astartes are.

Lynata wrote:Probably why 100 Marines are then equal to "only" 1.000 normal troops, if you follow Rogal Dorn's assessment. Likely not yet including any artillery or air support on either side, though.

Not that there is any consistency between the various assessments of a Marine's fighting power. Depending entirely on the source you look at, a single Marine can be equal to 10 normal men or a thousand.

Or 20.000, if you read the BS that Merrett spouts from time to time when he's hyperventilating about how awesome his Astartes are.

Yeah, in some sources they make SM literally IMMUNE to all forms of small arms fire...ridiculous.

These kinds of books usually reading something like:

IG Commander: Men! Kill these traitors!

Traitor Marines: LOL O RLY?

ADB's portrayal of the Black Templars at Helsreach seems pretty realistic.

(realistic in our own 40k way...)

Sasori wrote:

Necroagogo wrote:Wasn't one entire Chapter annihilated after the Necron tomb world on which they'd unwittingly built their fortress-monastery woke up? Can't remember the name but iirc it's mentioned in the SM 'dex.

The Emperors swords. I know it's mentioned in the Necron codex, not sure about the SM dex.

Thank,s Sasori. Yup, now I've had a chance to look, it's mentioned on p49 of the Marine 'dex. Also adds that they were avenged by the Fire Lords chapter, who wiped out the Necrons.

Will this violence never end?

There was that chapter who were wiped out attacking the Necron World Engine, and the Scythes of the Emperor who fell defending the "giant's coffin" I think it was from Hive Fleet Behemoth.

im2randomghgh wrote:Yeah, in some sources they make SM literally IMMUNE to all forms of small arms fire...ridiculous.

These kinds of books usually reading something like:

IG Commander: Men! Kill these traitors!

Traitor Marines: LOL O RLY?

Given the fluff descriptions of Astartes power armor from just the basic game sources, yeah, they'd be all but immune to most small arms fire. The joints would be the only real weak areas, but I imagine those are resistant to some small arms fire too. High caliber/high power stuff to the throat/joints, etc would probably have a good chance of taking them out. I think people forget just how valuable a single Space Marine is. Talking an investment of decades of time, and countless money, and that's before you include the cost of their armor, weaponry, etc. It only makes sense that they are walking light tanks. They aren't so beastly on the tabletop because Games Workshop has to make money off of them, and has to make buying the other armies seem reasonable. If a Space Marine army took ten models and a Guard army took 100, who would buy a Guard army except the most wealthy or punishment gluttonous? You also have to remember that the tabletop game isn't a realistic depiction of combat. It's two armies of roughly equal power on a more or less neutral battlefield. That rarely, if ever, happens in real life. Let alone be the way that Space Marines would typically fight. Sure, if you put a heavy Guard regiment or three in the field directly across from a Chapter tabletop/Napoleonic style, sure, it would seem to be weighted in the Guard's favor. But let's face it. That's never going to happen except on a tabletop.

im2randomghgh wrote:Lol random, but does anyone ever picture Donald Trump saying "you're fired" before a commissar executes someone?

Why yes, yes I do

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Given the fluff descriptions of Astartes power armor from just the basic game sources, yeah, they'd be all but immune to most small arms fire.

Mhm, I wouldn't say so. When we look at GW's own fluff ...

Codex: Angels of Death wrote:Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium.

From what I've been reading, the idea of small arms immunity stems mostly (or completely? I have yet to see any GW source retconning the above) from various licensed products, which has caught on with the general fanbase because it makes Marines even more awesome (just look at FFG's Deathwatch RPG). Just like half the people in the community think that Marines are 9+ feet in height because some novels say so, nevermind what GW themselves have stated.

Of course it's not exactly "wrong" - it's just one of many different interpretations that came into being over the past years. Protagonists in the novels (or computer games, when you look at "Space Marine") are often made to be more heroic and more epic for greater appeal to the target audience, but since there are a lot more Marine books out there, a lot of readers have adopted this to be the standard when it's just another version. Just something to keep in mind, I think.

Wow...
If this was a Tau thread we would be on pages 5 or 6

Brother Coa wrote:Wow...
If this was a Tau thread we would be on pages 5 or 6

Quality over Quantity.

Brother Coa wrote:Wow...
If this was a Tau thread we would be on pages 5 or 6

I guess no one cares about SMs . Well the real reason is that no one has said anything inflammatory or tried to troll. If you don't get anyone angry, then you you don't get big massive threads.

Maybe it is because everybody likes Marines? And most despite Tau?

Lynata wrote:
Of course it's not exactly "wrong" - it's just one of many different interpretations that came into being over the past years. Protagonists in the novels (or computer games, when you look at "Space Marine") are often made to be more heroic and more epic for greater appeal to the target audience,

To be honest, I think Space Marine kind of got it right really... Especially if you think about the odds of playing through the whole game without dying once...

A Space Marine captain can quite happily take on a squad or so of ork boyz single handedly quite happily, but he does eventually get overwhelmed with numbers. And the Ork Nobs do end up being decent threats but not undefeatable.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Yeah, in some sources they make SM literally IMMUNE to all forms of small arms fire...ridiculous.

These kinds of books usually reading something like:

IG Commander: Men! Kill these traitors!

Traitor Marines: LOL O RLY?

Given the fluff descriptions of Astartes power armor from just the basic game sources, yeah, they'd be all but immune to most small arms fire. The joints would be the only real weak areas, but I imagine those are resistant to some small arms fire too. High caliber/high power stuff to the throat/joints, etc would probably have a good chance of taking them out. I think people forget just how valuable a single Space Marine is. Talking an investment of decades of time, and countless money, and that's before you include the cost of their armor, weaponry, etc. It only makes sense that they are walking light tanks. They aren't so beastly on the tabletop because Games Workshop has to make money off of them, and has to make buying the other armies seem reasonable. If a Space Marine army took ten models and a Guard army took 100, who would buy a Guard army except the most wealthy or punishment gluttonous? You also have to remember that the tabletop game isn't a realistic depiction of combat. It's two armies of roughly equal power on a more or less neutral battlefield. That rarely, if ever, happens in real life. Let alone be the way that Space Marines would typically fight. Sure, if you put a heavy Guard regiment or three in the field directly across from a Chapter tabletop/Napoleonic style, sure, it would seem to be weighted in the Guard's favor. But let's face it. That's never going to happen except on a tabletop.

Yes but you fail to realize a lasgun blast is strong enough to blow a human arm off, with the surface it hit having a small explosion upon impact, and they're the weakest gun in the game. Pulse weapon can destroy tanks by shooting their front armour, or penetrating their rear. People get ridiculous with them. The IoM could get by just fine without them, with barely even noticing. They are shock troops, and exist in a 1-1 ratio with Imperial planets.

Also, people who ask for marines to be Str5 are crazy, Daemon Princes are Str 5.

Compel wrote:A Space Marine captain can quite happily take on a squad or so of ork boyz single handedly quite happily, but he does eventually get overwhelmed with numbers. And the Ork Nobs do end up being decent threats but not undefeatable.

Let's just say the Space Marine computer game would be more "realistic" (heh) if the player character wouldn't magically regain health every time he does a fancy move to kill an Ork.

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes but you fail to realize a lasgun blast is strong enough to blow a human arm off, with the surface it hit having a small explosion upon impact, and they're the weakest gun in the game.

That's not a fail in realization. I am aware that "small arms" in 40k can still have a rather disastrous effect. That's just what warfare in the 41st millennium is made up of - over the millennia, weapon damage went nuts, but the human body stayed as frail as ever. I just felt inclined to point out that, at least according to studio material, Marine/Sisters armour isn't as impenetrable to these weapons as it is presented in some licensed products. As always ... contradictions, different interpretations, etc. Pick a version of fluff you like, just be aware that it's not the only one.

Given the numbers that GW posted, I'm inclined to believe that they simply don't understand ballistic body armor.

Or any other science, for that matter. Marines only being males based on some hormone is somewhat ridiculous, too. Not to mention that everybody keeps conquering entire planets with a couple thousand troops.

Buuut that's just something we've got to live with. Occasionally, it can be quite fun looking for potential explanations for why things are as GW described them, though.

Lynata wrote:Or any other science, for that matter. Marines only being males based on some hormone is somewhat ridiculous, too. Not to mention that everybody keeps conquering entire planets with a couple thousand troops.

Blood Ravens did that with 4 squads of Marines, commander and Dred. Did I mention d that they put most of them in a single drop-pod?
The logic for females is not just hormone, but also hromozones who are different with males and females. The science is that males can survive that, but they must suffer a great pain. Women are not so, tough according to GW writers.
And the logic for conquered world is: take capital and the whole planet is yours. It is what I saw in most books anyway. Except Vraks, where even millions of Krieg solders didn't manage to get rid of all the Heretics.

Brother Coa wrote:Blood Ravens did that with 4 squads of Marines, commander and Dred. Did I mention d that they put most of them in a single drop-pod?

Maybe they deep-striked right onto the governor's head.

Brother Coa wrote:The logic for females is not just hormone, but also hromozones who are different with males and females.

Nowadays there's little problem inserting male hormones into females. It's why gender swaps are possible - men and women aren't two distinct species, after all. And then they went on to talk about zygotes ... but that doesn't work either. There was a rather lengthy thread on the FFG forums where people discussed that topic, and whilst I have always been and will always be a firm opponent to the idea of FeMarines, it did at least convince me that the official explanation was plain BS. Here's an excerpt from that thread:

Cynr wrote:The only "male specific" mention in the Index Astartes I article is "They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for need for tissue compatibility tests and physiological screening." (page 7) My biological sciences degree is a few years old but the term zygote is the initial cell formed usually from sexual reproduction (the union of two gametes or haploid cells, i.e. sperm and egg) which offers no logical explanation as to how it is "keyed" off of either sex and since it works with males it must contain both X & Y chromosomes (the factor that determines male from female genetic expression.)

As to rejection, organ donation (just as second heart, lung etc.) is based on genetic compatibility not gender (although studies I looked at said about an increase rejection rate of 8-10% cross gender donation). Gender may only be a factor in determine the organ's size, hence its functional compatibility not its genetic compatibility. Looking over the list of implanted organs, I can't see where there would be a difference in male vs. female tissue types (which usually tend to be reproductive in nature and in effect.) You would NOT remove the ovaries because they produce testosterone, the principle anabolic steroid for muscle mass, etc.

As for hormones, the major difference is the levels between males and females. It could be argued that women have a more complex hormonal system and hence the reason for "male only" are the "ideal gender" but this is a guess no better than saying that the Emperor chose men for chivalristic psychosocial reasons since the Emperor was a "He" in a patriarchial system.

Personally, I still think the studio could have simply went and said "because the Emperor said so", just like it works for the Sisters. As soon as you involve science, there's a high probability that some internet nerd will point out it's wrong because he actually bothered to do the research that the writers did not. And 40k is by far not the only sci-fi setting that suffers from this. Me, I'm perfectly willing to think within the twisted limits of the setting and dismiss real life logic, at least to the degree where it just starts sounding dumb (so any person will have his or her own area where he/she draws the line). When you analyze everything, you're just going to end up disappointed, ruining the immersion for yourself. And anyways, when we have stuff like Chaos and daemonic corruption and friggin zombies without fans complaining, we can damn well have lasguns with recoil due to hot air.

Lynata wrote:

Compel wrote:A Space Marine captain can quite happily take on a squad or so of ork boyz single handedly quite happily, but he does eventually get overwhelmed with numbers. And the Ork Nobs do end up being decent threats but not undefeatable.

Let's just say the Space Marine computer game would be more "realistic" (heh) if the player character wouldn't magically regain health every time he does a fancy move to kill an Ork.

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes but you fail to realize a lasgun blast is strong enough to blow a human arm off, with the surface it hit having a small explosion upon impact, and they're the weakest gun in the game.

That's not a fail in realization. I am aware that "small arms" in 40k can still have a rather disastrous effect. That's just what warfare in the 41st millennium is made up of - over the millennia, weapon damage went nuts, but the human body stayed as frail as ever. I just felt inclined to point out that, at least according to studio material, Marine/Sisters armour isn't as impenetrable to these weapons as it is presented in some licensed products. As always ... contradictions, different interpretations, etc. Pick a version of fluff you like, just be aware that it's not the only one.

1. Also, armour doesn't regenerate. If you had to go through the whole game without healing, it would be accurate.

2. Well said, everyone has their interpretation and argument is redundant 3/4 of the time in 40k.