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Honestly, some of my buddies from my FLG, love the fact that Chaos has a Dreadnought that doesn't have the crazy rules when firing. Personally I love the IA2 book, it make me want to play Space Marines or Back Templar. It just bring alitle different favor to the game style and play.

I'm glad you guys enjoyed the report!

Yeah, the units are good, and they should be, who wants bad units?

I think with exposure and repeated exposure, they will seem a lot less scary.

The Rape-eus Assault Ram is broken? Who woulda thunk it?!

I'm going to have to argue with you -bigtime- about the Achilles, though. A hard-to-break tank made almost invincible? It ignores Melta and Lance (the best ways short of railguns and D-strength weapons, and Railguns essentially lose their AP1 bonus when rolling to damage the Achilles), which cripples almost every non-marine army by making it nigh-inuvlnerable to long-range fire, and can kill things in not-marine armor easily (via the Thunderfire Cannon), and would give many marine armies a hell of a lot of trouble too.

And yeah, "play around it". Implying you can "play around" a pair of twin-linked multi-meltas and a Thunderfire cannon that are almost totally indestructible. Also, that "unimpressive" 1.4% extra survivability means a -lot- more when you understand the numbers better.

EDIT: Also, yeah, those first-turn assaulters you mentioned? They're not as hard to get rid of in combat as a dreadnought, and hit damn hard as it is. A bare-bones dread throwing down a multi-melta and then following with a S10 charge?

Sounds like you have some strong opinions on the subject.

No need to be so sarcastic, though.

As we always say, we present data and opinions, anyone else is free to disagree.

The Achilles is not as good as you make it out to be, it just isn't. In every game we have played it, it has been underwhelming. For the points, you can get a lot more using other units.

But, it sounds like you have your mind made up on the matter so I won't waste any more time arguing the point. I made all of mine in the article.

The article is good, and makes some strong points. However, I feel like I'd have to see that kind of tank in-person for myself to be convinced that it's not as scary as it seems...

We can all make our points decently... but that's always a hard thing to maintain in the tourney section

Yeah, for sure, play it yourself. That is what we always encourage. Our opinions aren't definitive by any means, and we don't try to present them as if they were.

I came across as a bit put off in that last post because I have been down this road so many times that I honestly don't care to argue with someone who is posturing them self so aggressively/sarcastically because typically that means their point isn't to have a meaningful debate, which I love, but to try and put the other person down or scream their opinion the loudest. That is a waste of time, usually.

True... but at the same time (getting back to the point of discussion) a LR that ignores melta and lance capabilities sounds too good to be true! And maybe it is... but on paper that's a beast for a lot of match-ups.

(Thinking of myself with the melta-heavy army I'm building, for instance, and how I'd deal with it if I had to face it...)

It's also an incredibly beautiful model!

People sure are complaining a lot about not being able to blow up a 325 point tank with their 10 point guns. Every army has a way to deal with this unit still. It's just difficult to kill. That's the point. Did people never take anything in their lists to deal with monoliths?
I would gladly let the achilles in, as maybe then people would take different armies. Imagine a day when you play against space wolves and they take something in their heavy support slot that isn't 3 x long fangs.

@Dok
Exactly! That was what we were hoping, too. But honestly, a squad of Long Fangs is better than the Achilles IMO, and I would still take 3 of them in a competitive list.

@RiTides
A list that relies entirely on lance or melta weapons to take on AV14 is a one dimensional list and that is the fault of the person writing it, not of the Achilles.

In my tournament Wolf List, I take all of 1 melta gun. I take lots of Las Cannons. I find them to be better for my list.

If you take nothing but melta guns in your list, the odds of you blowing up an Achilles in one shot are the EXACT same as with a las cannon....

If you play DE and don't take anything but lance weapons you are at a disadvantage, but you should have some haywire grenades. A Talos is also a good way to rip this thing up, and before anyone laughs, I think a Talos is a perfectly sound choice. But I play crazy lists, so hey.

Every army can kill this thing in one shot. That fact alone reigns it in. This thing is NOTHING to the super Falcon of 4th ed, that thing had like a 1/172 chance of being destroyed by a single las cannon, and you could (and did) take 3 of the stupid things! They were cheaper, and faster, too!

My point being, the Achilles is not in any way a press win button. It just isn't it.

Playing around it, for those who can't seem to grasp the concept, simply means ignoring the stupid thing as much as you can and playing to the mission... which is what you should be doing anyway.

Reecius wrote:@RiTides
A list that relies entirely on lance or melta weapons to take on AV14 is a one dimensional list and that is the fault of the person writing it, not of the Achilles.

Tyranids?

I mean, outside of Zoanthropes and Warp Lance, the only other way is to take an extremely overpriced Carnifex for a reliable way to crack AV14. Trygons have a chance, though not as healthy a chance. And it still requires getting those MC's through all that firepower into melee with something that's obviously not going to be unsupported.

Reecius wrote:
Every army can kill this thing in one shot. That fact alone reigns it in. This thing is NOTHING to the super Falcon of 4th ed, that thing had like a 1/172 chance of being destroyed by a single las cannon, and you could (and did) take 3 of the stupid things!

With the old Falcon, you basically had a need an average of 27 BS3 lascannons to kill it (13.5 hit, 9 glanced, 1 destroyed). The big thing was if they took vectored engines on top of that, which made it an average of 108 lascannons, that said, once you immobilized it, the other shots could then truly penetrate and kill it quickly so that number isn't quite accurate. With the Achilles, you need an average of 72 BS3 lascannons to kill it (36 hit, 6 penetrate, 1 destroyed result). So it's definitely up there in terms of difficulty of kill, though yes, much more expensive (although also immune to many of the weapons that can engage a falcon and much more heavily armed and capable of transporting much more fearsome troops).

The other thing to keep in mind is that for many lists, melta/lance is the only decent, reliable, cost effective AT they have, and while they may have other forms of AT that can deal with the achilles, it's AT that's generally not going to perform well against more common foes.

That said, while I don't think it's exactly an inspired or good piece of game design (immune to ALL THE THINGS!) at it's new cost and without the -1 on glances it's reasonable now. Though it is annoying seeing more and more Space Marine units, both from GW and from FW, that have melta-immunity or access to it (LR Proteus, Stormraven, Caestus, etc).

@Loki
You answered your own question =)

@Vaktathi
Thanks for posting the math, I really couldn't be bothered! Haha

But yeah, i agree with you. It is not unreasonably powerful. Just as with any unit you can't deal with, you work around it, if that is your only option.

I saw the example of a BS3 Las Cannon having a less than 1% chance of one shot, one kill against it. First off, you don’t have to kill the dumb thing to take it out of play. Second of all, here is the actual math on it: 1/2 * 1/6 * 1/6 =1/72 which is 1.4% for a kill shot.

Sounds pretty tough, right?

What are the odds of a one shot, one kill with a BS3 Las Cannon against a regular Land Raider?

1/2 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 1/36 which is 2.8%

Wowzers, it is 1.4% more resilient. Color me unimpressed.

Major math fail on this one. The Achilles is actually 50% more resilient than a standard Land Raider. If it was 1.4% more resilient then a lascannon would have a 2.76% chance of popping an Achilles. Another way to look at it, is that a standard Land Raider is 100% easier to kill with a lascannon than an Achilles.

I also don't think that it's unreasonable to mention that as a Sisters of Battle player I literally have almost no chance at killing one of those things. (Due to BS 4 I get a 1/54 or 1.8% chance to kill with my S8 AP1 weapons) I'm not crying "cheese" or claiming that the Achilles is a win button but I don't like the idea that there should be anything that's actually unkillable.

One of the biggest complaints about the Achilles is the immunity to melta.

Can somebody do the math on the likelihood of a meltagun killing a "regular" Land Raider in one shot and the likelihood of a meltagun doing the same to an Achilles (a chance that seems to be 0%)?

This is in no way trying to argue that a meltagun MUST be able to reliably kill an Achilles in one shot. This is simply about comparing the odds.


EDIT.

Is this right?

Marine with Meltagun shooting at Land Raider within 6".

Probability of a Meltagun to miss completely: 2/6 = 33,33%
Probability of a Meltagun to hit but fail to penetrate: 4/6 * 15/36 = 60 / 216 = 27,78%
Probability of a Meltagun to hit, penetrate but not destroy or wreck: 4 / 6 * 21 / 36 * 3/6 = 19,44%

Probability of one Meltagun failing to wreck or destroy a Land Raider (or other AV14): 33,33% + 27,78% + 19,44% = 80,55%

Hence, chance of wrecking or destroying a Land Raider with one Meltagun is 19,45%


Woops. Forgot the chance of Glancing.

Chance to destroy from a pen: 19.45%

Chance to destroy from a glance: 1.54%

Total chance to destroy: 20.99%

?

...

Steelmage99 wrote:
Total chance to destroy: 20.99%

Yeah, this looks right. I went from the other direction and got the same number.

To Hit * (Glance Kill + Pen Kill)
2/3 * ((5/36 * 1/6) + (21/36 * 3/6)) = 0.20987

Against the Achilles it's
2/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 0.0185

That means an Achilles is 91% tougher to kill with a meltagun than a standard Land Raider.

Yeah, so the message of "it is only a 1,4% more resilient" presented in the review can only be seen as....what?...dangerously misleading?...wholly wrong?...an unfortunate case of misunderstood math?

Of course, that comparison was made with Lascannons....and thus conveniently sidestepped the issue of Melta-immunity, but I don't buy the "all-round lists bring lascannons" argument.
Unless paired up with twin-linking and Tank Hunters lascannons have always been horrible at AV 14. Good lists does indeed bring lascannons, but not as a replacement for Meltaguns. They are brought as long range mid-value AT, not heavy armour AT.
That is what Melta-weapons are for. Melta weapons have always been the dedicated heavy armour AT weapon of choice.
Its AP 1 and additional d6 to penetration (offset by short range and shorter "melta" range) have made it the only viable choice.

Removing that, and the effect of Lance as well (for those without melta) is a huge impact.



...

Steelmage99 wrote:Yeah, so the message of "it is only a 1,4% more resilient" presented in the review can only be seen as....what?...dangerously misleading?...wholly wrong?...an unfortunate case of misunderstood math?

I think it was mostly just misunderstood math. I don't think Reecius is trying to trick people, but his statement greatly understated the actual difference in toughness.

And I agree with you that the lascannon example was pretty weak to begin with. Shooting a lascannon at a Land Raider is pretty foolish unless you have no other targets. For me it's melta or nothing, although I play Sisters so my solution to most problems is "Moar melta!!!"

Reecius wrote:@RiTides
A list that relies entirely on lance or melta weapons to take on AV14 is a one dimensional list and that is the fault of the person writing it, not of the Achilles.

Or, it could be theme! And it's not the only way I could personally handle it... currently building a DoA list and I'll have plenty of powerfists / thunder hammers / meltabombs (not sure if the meltabombs are neutered, too). But as for ranged attacks- yeah, str 8 is the highest I can get in that list while keeping in-theme.

I've got alternate lists I'll be doing as well (Dreadpod list with 8 Dreads!!), but for the most part I was still relying on melta weapons at range (or other weapons at strength 8 or less), or hitting it with something big in close combat.

No need to put down the person writing the list, if people are concerned with this tank... perhaps it's themed and doesn't have a place to take lascannons! However, your comment does have me thinking, and perhaps in the Dreadpod list I'll arm one of them with a lascannon. It's unlikely, as I DO have ways to deal with it (close combat), and I'm not going to plan my list around an unlikely scenario / matchup. To do so would weaken it against most others.

So, to answer the question, I'm not relying entirely on melta weapons... but in the DoA list they are my only ranged option (rather than close combat), and in the Dreadpod list they'll be the only option except perhaps a lascannon or two, and close combat.

I'm a 40k rookie and would like your input, though. How do non-marine armies deal with that tank? (Kill it in close combat?) You say every army has a way, but if a single tank is tilting the gaming environment by forcing people to take things they otherwise wouldn't... I can't decide if it's a good thing or a bad thing (although, in this case it's something the Monolith is already doing). Perhaps it's a good thing, I am mostly just playing devil's advocate here and trying to see how I would personally deal with it... again, bringing up my point of not needing to put down the person writing the list... makes it hard to have a discussion . In my case, I'm just trying to think of how I'd personally handle that monster. I.e., engaging in the discussion here and bringing up the other side!

Looking forward to your counter-points on this

the Achilles is still a Land Raider. I have lost Raisers to HK Missiles in turn 1 before.

They are immune to melta? Oh Noes!!

With 6th Ed coming up i expect to see more this in the future as i think everyone can see a melta-nerf on the horizon (my bet is on plasma to be the next must-have gun).

At least it is only melta, not like to old 'Lith "you only get 1D6, period" rule. Chain Fist the damn thing, you'll still get your 2D6 that way, chances are you'll get more hits as well.

Am i right in thinking that Sm termies can be a min squad size of 5? So you will never see an achilles carrying a termicide squad. in Fact, at 325 points i dont see amny peopel playign it at all outside of apoc.

I will say it is a sexy model though.




@ RiTides: other armies solutions? Off the top of my head:

Necrons:
Tachyon Arrow (S10, Ap1)
Entropic Strike
Warscythe (S7 and will still gets its 2D6)
Eldritch lance

IG:
Manticores (in squads that could be potentially 9 S10 shots per turn, survive that)
Demo Charges (? - dont play IG but aren't they S10?)
Lascannons
Vanquishers

Chaos:
Lascannons
Chain Fist
Demon Princes (CC)
Vindicators
Defiler (CC)

Praxiss wrote:the Achilles is still a Land Raider. I have lost Raisers to HK Missiles in turn 1 before.

That would require an average of 135 BS4 HK missiles given they can only glance it.

IG:
Manticores (in squads that could be potentially 9 S10 shots per turn, survive that)

Manticores cannot be taken in squadrons.

Lascannons

As pointed out above, it takes an average of 72 BS3 lascannons, not a terribly effective method unfortunately

Vanquishers

One of the better options against it yes, but also one of the worst general AT options in the book and rarely taken, basically meaning that it probably won't be there unless you're tailoring a list.

And really this isn't the first time we have seen things like this. As someone else said the old monolith was a pain to deal with and black templars had blessed hulls. Hit it with a demo cannon. Maybe this will bring vindicators out of the wood work.

I play tested against it with my 10th company army. It died turn one to scouts due to a melta bomb. with my dark eldar it took 2 turns to get a wych squad with haywire grenades to it. Yes it killed some stuff before I got it but not it's points value.

Corbett wrote:And really this isn't the first time we have seen things like this. As someone else said the old monolith was a pain to deal

yup, but were twice as likely to be destroyed when penetrated compared with an achilles. They were also the only vehicle in the army and the entire codex was built around the monolith's functionality and the fact that there wasn't much else for dedicated AT guns to target.

I play tested against it with my 10th company army. It died turn one to scouts due to a melta bomb.

How did a single melta-bomb kill an LR Achilles given that it can only glance and that melta-bombs don't get the AP1 bonus?

Vaktathi wrote:

Praxiss wrote:the Achilles is still a Land Raider. I have lost Raisers to HK Missiles in turn 1 before.

That would require an average of 135 BS4 HK missiles given they can only glance it.

IG:
Manticores (in squads that could be potentially 9 S10 shots per turn, survive that)

Manticores cannot be taken in squadrons.

Lascannons

As pointed out above, it takes an average of 72 BS3 lascannons, not a terribly effective method unfortunately

Vanquishers

One of the better options against it yes, but also one of the worst general AT options in the book and rarely taken, basically meaning that it probably won't be there unless you're tailoring a list.

if you deal just with averages then anything will sound OP, hence the reason i do not always agree with MathHammer logic.

The fact of the matter is that, to kill an Achilles, all you need (assuming the dice rolls are with you) is ONE decently rolled lascannon, 6 HK missiles (assuming 4 weapon destroyed, then immobilsed). I'm not saying this is all you need on the table, i'm saying what is possible. You DON'T need 72 lascannons to kill it.

i suppose the most reliable method will be CC (either entropic strike or chain fist) but the Achilles is just about as eay to kill as a normal LR. Everyoen is just panicing because it falsl into the new "immune to melta" theme that FW seem to like at the moment.

Praxiss wrote: but the Achilles is just about as eay to kill as a normal LR.

Everything is easy to kill if you argue that "6 HK can potentially kill an Achilles on turn 1, so the fact that it on average takes 134 is irrelevant".

Praxiss wrote:
The fact of the matter is that, to kill an Achilles, all you need (assuming the dice rolls are with you) is ONE decently rolled lascannon

And the chances of that are very small. Possible, but small. small enough that most armies won't be able to muster the sort of firepower required to see that result occur in most games reliably.

6 HK missiles (assuming 4 weapon destroyed, then immobilsed).

At this point we're talking about chances of this happening at one in several million with 6 BS4 HK's missiles all hitting, glancing on 6's, and getting 5 or 6 results. Again, possible, but really not likely at those odds.

I'm not saying this is all you need on the table, i'm saying what is possible. You DON'T need 72 lascannons to kill it.

Right, but as often as it takes fewer it will take more. 72 is the average number of lascannon shots required to kill it.

i suppose the most reliable method will be CC (either entropic strike or chain fist)

In general yes, but not all armies have great access to such weaponry

but the Achilles is just about as eay to kill as a normal LR.

It's not. There's a reason it's over 300pts. It's twice as hard to kill on a penetrating hit as a normal Land radier. It's easier for some armies to engage and destroy a Baneblade than an LR Achilles, even after its nerf, hence why it causes so much controversy.

Everyoen is just panicing because it falsl into the new "immune to melta" theme that FW seem to like at the moment.

There's the "-1 on all penetrating hit results" is a fairly big deal as well.

The melta on the scouts was a finisher it was actually a weapon destroyed result, but i'd shot it up during shooting.

Corbett wrote:The melta on the scouts was a finisher it was actually a weapon destroyed result, but i'd shot it up during shooting.

Then the earlier example wasn't exactly accurate, it took quite a bit more than the scout with the meltabomb.

Vaktathi wrote:

Corbett wrote:The melta on the scouts was a finisher it was actually a weapon destroyed result, but i'd shot it up during shooting.

Then the earlier example wasn't exactly accurate, it took quite a bit more than the scout with the meltabomb.

A melta Bomb still gets 2d6 against the Achilles. Its not a melta weapon as per its name. It just allows you to gain another d6 for armour Pen. Melta bombs are another good way to pen. a Achilles.

italiaplaya wrote:
A melta Bomb still gets 2d6 against the Achilles. Its not a melta weapon as per its name. It just allows you to gain another d6 for armour Pen. Melta bombs are another good way to pen. a Achilles.

Hrm, that may be a difficult thing to get many opponents accept. In a strict raw sense I'd agree, but it's one of those things that most players will play as if it doesn't get double-pen. The Ap1 thing is a bit different as CC attacks don't have AP, but a lot of players aren't going to like being told that a rule making you immune to melta effects doesn't apply to all melta weapons.

It's one of those rulings that you may see adhered to at top end RAW level, but GAP would be seen as "wait what?"

Was that not already clarified for the Storm Raven, which also disallows the extra dice on armor penetration rolls for melta weapons?