Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:The programming required to create something like that would cost more than GW could afford. We're talking about a multi-million dollar piece of software that would probably revolutionize the entire 3d modeling industry.

The software is pretty cheap, Autodesk makes some nice stuff, it's the hardware that costs big bucks

Unless you're talking about student licenses, a lot of this software costs 500+ dollars for a license, more often than not its 1k+, but thats not what I'm talking about. I was referring to a very specific piece of software with a specific feature set that does not currently exist (being able to heavily modify a pre-rigged 3d model and have it able to print a valid solid without any special design training or engineering knowledge, etc.)

Ok, my bad, I was talking from GW, or another producer's stand-point, where people would have the required experience and 1k+ is a small investment

I see there are lots of reasons why this is CURRENTLY a no goer. The point is though, like most technology, currently it's prohibitively expensive - but after time costs will decrease and the process will improve(for example - when DVD players first arrived they cost hundreds of pounds and would only play a disk from a particular region - now you can buy one for about £30 and it will play loads of different disk formats) - so I still think there's possibly a future in this. As mentioned earlier I think the technology will eventually come - but the copyright issue could be a different problem altogether.

Brother SRM wrote:It could be, but not for quite some time. The advances in 3D printing have come along very quickly though.

Now that the bulk of patents relating to the technology have expired prices are plummeting as many more companies get into the game. This will, most likely, rapidly accelerate development of the technology.

I'm just about to get mine working in my basement . Definitely not suitable for minis, but with some sanding I think you could make some cool terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it's working! My first decent print

THat my friend is the sign of things to come and they will. Every company is looking for a way to make money and 3d printing is a brand new area to be exploited. Quality is going to improve at a fast rate and prices will drop and then we will see some interesting times. I would imagine GW have got their head in the sand thinking the same thing, the quality isn't there and it's too expensive... they are going to come to work oneday and somebody is going to show them a picture of a model they got of a forum like this and it will be "oh bugger!" time.

@ RiTides - Keep up the good work - You are a true pioneer!

@ Wolfstan - Agreed.

I dunno, everytime I see threads like this I just nod my head in disappoint at how naive people can be about this. 3d modeling is not easy to learn by any means, theres a reason why skilled digital artists can take home starting salaries in the high 5 digit/low 6 digit range. The people with these skills are not going to simply post design files online, especially when they could make much much more selling you the models themselves.

and before anyone links to the company thats selling their design files online right now, I suggest you look closely at the models, they aren't particularly good... they're actually pretty bad, thats like 15 minutes in sketchup bad...

I've been working with 3d CAD and printing a fair amount of stuff. Granted I've been outsourcing my printing as I can't afford my own machine but it does work quite well for making master models. It does take some fine sanding and clean up but they can come out pretty awesome.

I think we are maybe 5 years or less from having machines that will print at this quality in home. There are already sites that allow you to purchase 3d meshes for download, some are incredibly good but most are meant for animation or display so aren't suitable for printing, however as printing becomes more common I expect to see simular sites catering to printable models. Heck if there was a user market right now I'd rather sell the files than mess around with making actual casts, it's much easier to create a digital download site and let people buy and print stuff themself. It's going to happen soon it's just a waiting ame until the printers drop cheap enough.

Model on the right is the 3d print (model is 50m tall)




Model on the right is a resin cast of the cleaned up print

OK chaos0xomega I'll not disagree with you (I'm not all that up on my 3D), but my point originally was that some companies are beginning to push this, and whilst it is still in it's infancy - is expensive and not great quality, time will improve that so maybe sometime in the future you could buy minis by downloading a programme and making them yourself?

The technology isn't currently at the point where it is useful to start scanning GW sprues and going hog wild but I could see someone scanning in Titan or Thunderhawk components. Still, making your own large model in a 3d design program and then printing it out (sold or in pieces) would be a game changer.

@paulson games - those robots look pretty good - so there's proof of the feasability - it just needs to be a bit better quality (so no sanding etc) and affordable. 5 years doesn't sound unrealistic to me.

Breotan wrote:The technology isn't currently at the point where it is useful to start scanning GW sprues and going hog wild but I could see someone scanning in Titan or Thunderhawk components. Still, making your own large model in a 3d design program and then printing it out (sold or in pieces) would be a game changer.

Printing out a warhound titan sized object would actually cost several times more than the warhound itself (unless you did a significant redesign to hollow lots of things out, but you would have to do some really creative engineering there...), so im not sure how feasible that is.

monkeyh wrote:@paulson games - those robots look pretty good - so there's proof of the feasability - it just needs to be a bit better quality (so no sanding etc) and affordable. 5 years doesn't sound unrealistic to me.

There are several companies that currently offer that level of printing, it's a matter of price and also rquires the models be built in CAD a particular way.

High end printers require that the entire mesh be a single object where many lower end printers can have the model made of multiple meshes. It's not a huge deal to do but the model needs to be built from thre ground up with that process in mind.

The higher end printing which I'm testing out runs about 2-3 times what my previous projects have but in theory it should be ready to go without any sanding or cleaning work.

Printing out a warhound titan sized object would actually cost several times more than the warhound itself (unless you did a significant redesign to hollow lots of things out, but you would have to do some really creative engineering there...), so im not sure how feasible that is.

Many commercial printers have programs that let them set large models as hollow by default, so it's already in place. They aren't truely hollow unles sthey have an opening to the exterior of the model, but the inner material is done as a special format so it uses only about 20-30% of the material that a normal wall or surface would take. That way it saves tons on material usage and time needed for the print. It still needs a sponge like structure inside to help it support the build as it's being constructed. Once the item is complete the inner material can be removed safely or just left in place.

Something the size of a titan is however still very expensive, like 2-3 times what buying one would cost. As the technology improves I think that will change and it'll become much more affordable. I've gotten quotes for a model the size of a warhound for about $1K.

I could see a hybrid print process working rather well, a low resolution printer to do the bulk of the build with fat stepping, and then a fine layer printer head applying a final high res layer over the top with very thin stepping or no visable stepping at all. Not a machine currently on the market but I'm sure some gearhead will make one soon enough.

RiTides wrote:I'm just about to get mine working in my basement . Definitely not suitable for minis, but with some sanding I think you could make some cool terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it's working! My first decent print

I would love to see what a makerbot print would look like with a standard sized figure. You might be able to find a space marine cad file. You could definitely get a cad file of a Skeleton, and then might be able to print it at scale.

I'm just insanely curious what the end result would look like. (Plus, since the x,y have a different resolution than the Z, printing a figure horizontally might produce better results than printing them vertically. (I.E. print the figure "laying down" instead of "Standing up".

A friend has done some gaming minis on a machine similar to a makerbot, and the technology has definite limitations. From what he's said, most of the current 'cheap' machines only lay done one material, so you can't do 'overhangs' easily: you have to let the software design a honeycomb-esque support structure.

still, very cool tech, and it might become an issue in 5-10 years.

I can burn a DVD, Doesn't mean I can make a 300mil dollar movie to put on that DVD.

The issue is people don't want 'generic 3D model downloaded from the open source 3D model site'. They want a perfect recreation and scan of a Games Workshop Space Marine. It has already been said multiple times as the first thing you guys go to is 'someone' illegally scanning in GW's most expensive model they make so you can have it at home, for free.

Paulson's example is a good one, but the issue is 'scanning' makes derivative works. Tracing and plotting makes derivative works. If you can make 3D models which are unique, from scratch that people want to buy or you want to give away from free, then the system works. The problem boils down to people do not want those models. They want GW official renders, but because it is the internet, they will steal it. A 3d CAD of a space marine goes from FAN ART to Theft the second you use it to print a 3D model and distribute or sell it in any way.

Personally, I hope we get to a point where this technology is used. I like the idea of dynamic, super looking, multipose models without them being 10+ bitz for a infantry model who shatters into dozen of glue-snapped parts when it drops. Single-piece models are really great. If I could pay a service to take a 3D render of a character or model I like, adjust his pose, weapons and other goodies into a pose, have him printed and paint, A great service has been done to my gamer side even if the model cost the exact same cost of what it does now.

The components which I see everyone drooling over involves Piracy of super expensive 3D software, theft of artists 3d renders, and copyright infringement of artists and copies copyrights as models are scanned into 3D and redistributed. This practically means companies will need to keep 3d renders locked down as trade secrets and provide prints as a service at the beginning of this model. GW stores would probably become like 'build a bear' and have you come in and build your unit with a redshirt and then print it in-store. None of this means LAWL FREE SPERCE MERINE!

Years ago before Autodesk bought them out the makers of 3d Max had a couple of products, one was called Plasma and the other began with a G and one of those was free. There are also other free or less expensive 3d packages out there. So it's not a case of if, but when.

If there is a marketing for it someone will release a package just for use with 3d printers. I don't anybody with any common sense thinks that this will give you the option to make free Space marines, but it will potentially blow the market place wide open. You think GW has problems with Chapterhouse making models of characters they haven't gotten around to yet? Just wait and see what happens with this technology, GW will need to be quick or they will be dead. Somebody somewhere will invest, to them a small amount of £5000, and set themselves up, once that's done they could produce ranges that GW haven't bothered with. Ok, they may cost more than normal figures, but they will be available and gamer's will buy them.

Don't underestimate the passion some people have for these games, i.e. the willingness to spend time on 3D models and not see a profit off it. I spend time after regular hours at work using 3D software to whip up ships and markers for Battlefleet Gothic. The scale is small enough that detail level is not super-important for the markers, for example, these torpedo markers :



- and single or small numbers of large ships can be printed in higher detail material without it being too expensive. Here's a Pre-Heresy Strike Cruiser I did:



And I sell these for a pretty small markup. I'll probably never even break even on these, but it does help offset some of the cost of making my own models. I could definitely see there being "open source" places to get pretty decent fan-made 3D models, or at least a place to license them pretty cheaply.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Breotan wrote:The technology isn't currently at the point where it is useful to start scanning GW sprues and going hog wild but I could see someone scanning in Titan or Thunderhawk components. Still, making your own large model in a 3d design program and then printing it out (sold or in pieces) would be a game changer.

Printing out a warhound titan sized object would actually cost several times more than the warhound itself (unless you did a significant redesign to hollow lots of things out, but you would have to do some really creative engineering there...), so im not sure how feasible that is.

Or you just break up the model into a kit and print the pieces out for later assembly, which was what I intended to say. Sorry for not being clear on that.

@ CalgarsPimpHand - That Strike cruiser looks pretty good - it seems the thought of this technology being used in 5-10 years is highly likely as it's already being used by enthusiasts like yourself.

@ nkelsch - I see your point, but to a degree I think you are being a little cynical, whilst there will undoubtedly be people who will want to illegally get stuff for free - I think the vast majority would still buy a downloadable miniature - even if that means going into GW's 'build a space marine' store to do so, especially if it means they can create something unique.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/25/filesharing-website-pirate-website_n_1231061.html

A model listed by an anonymous user as a 'Tabletop Wargaming Robot Model' - but identifiable to the Huffington Post UK as the likeness of a Warhammer 40,000 Space Marine Dreadnought, which is a trademarked design of the UK-based Games Workshop Group PLC - was freely available and had already been downloaded by at least 23 people as of press time.

The model, an official version of which costs £28 from Games Workshop, has been previously listed on a 3D printing community website, but the plans were reportedly pulled after a takedown notice was issued.

The Huffington Post UK was not independently able to test whether the available design was that of an actual Warhammer model, or a design 'inspired' by the official dreadnought.

In addition Games Workshop said they had no comment, and it was not possible to contact the creator of the design as the plans were listed anonymously.

uh oh !

Yeah,
red that post is epic in it's scope and timing, more of my printer arrived in the post today!
I hope to be printing by feb, my first project is to design and print terrain pieces for a tau outpost.

although I do need a good test model to print over and over again while I calibrate my machine... a dread seems like a good shape to line things up.

Panic...

edit,
yeah I just downloaded the Dread file mentioned in the article, it's pretty basic. I'll attach a screen grab of what it looks like.
I don't think GW has to get worried just yet!

I'm still learning how to use 3d software... I'm using blender because it's free, but if anyone knows better software shoot me a PM.

If this does turn into easy-to-print miniatures at home using stolen IP, you know what the big miniatures companies will do?



Nothing. At all.


I 've never understood why gamers feel entitled to bargain basement or free gaming stuff. Personally, I don't mind paying artists for their work. I like then to keep making stuff. Then again, Im the sucker who actually pays for downloaded music.

While I dont doubt that there will still be plenty of people paying full price for models in the traditional manner, the price is not the only point that will push people into this sort of piracy, as we've seen with music and movies. Printing models (once resolution is high enough and price per figure low enough) will give:
- instant access (1-2 hours) to any model that you have the file for, and perfect scanned models will be highly likely due to ease of distribution and relatively low cost of scanning.
- perfectly clean model with no mould lines or flash (once printing gets to that point)
- it is already parity prices to print vs finecast, and once material patents expire it will drop to perhaps $2-3 per model.
- printing in colour will be a future option, so those who dont like painting can have a high quality 'painted' force from the moment they are done printing

I'm not saying that it is ethical, people should do it, or people will do it, but that is a significant amount of added value which, as we've seen with music, will either force a change in direction from the big miniature companies to offer more added value with their products, or force a drop in prices, or if they are crazy, a rise in prices to reflect the new supply/demand curve.

If I was going to make recommendations on surviving when it happens, I'd focus on printed materials (books, etc) which can not be pirated fully effectively, as even ebooks lack some of the grace of printed material, I'd add lots of freebies to each box (dice, decals, specialist basing materials, etc), I'd drop prices to be no more than $4-$5 per model, I'd capitalise on pieces that would be too expensive to print for a while in 3D resin by focusing on plastic production, using large pieces where possible, and other things that would add value to purchases to counter mould lines and shipping delays.

Much like the printers the current generation of scanners have some issues with cost and heavy requirements on the users skill.

A lot of 3d scanners have a resolution limit on how small of a surface they can scan, the next engine scanner I believe can only get down to .5mm in detail size, that may not seem like much but that could easily be a models nose or part of a mouth, eyes etc. For stuff like vehicles it'd be rivet details or maybe the lines of an engine cover.

On top of that the meshes still need a ton of clean up, it saves a lot of time vs building a mesh for scratch if you scan a complicated piece, but in most cases you are still looking at 10-20 hours of time to clean a mesh and have it workable for printing. The places I've check into for outsourcing scanning typically want about $500-$700 on the low end for a miniature. That's for the most basic stripped down mesh with no surface skins or color.

There are plenty of people who scan various stuff and post it for sale on download site's like turbosquid. They can be pretty pricey depending on what it is, but if you are modelling and crunched or time it can save a ton of time so it might be worth paying the $50-$200 for a scanned item

As we get newer generation scanners they may well reduce the minimum detail into a range that's better suited for minis.

With a conbination of scanning and modelling to fix the finer stuff it's doable but equipment price and skill demands are fairly high. So it's going to keep it out of the average joe's hands for a little while longer.


As for the pirate bay article all I can say is go go internet police! It's kinda sad how GW is going to bankrupt itself with legal fees chasing low level stuff like this when there's a fleet of chinese pirate casters producing significant volumes of stuff that's an actual threat. Plus the customer gets to carry the weight of the legal BS through the increased cost of minis which are already insanely expensive.

Once the tech gets there I think we may see some new cutting edge companies embrace the stuff that GW is fighting so hard against, print on demand miniatures at least in concept might become a very profitable business. The minis company wouldn't need to sell any actual product beyond a printable mesh file. The customer would buy it under license much like a music file and print the stuff at home. It'd cut the companies overhead huge as there's no production staff beyond the digital artist, no warehouse, no packaging or expensive plastic injection machines, no transportation costs. It's going to happen it's just a matter of if they have the sense to reconize it and adapt before they get swamped by it. It won't ever completely replace the traditional miniature market but once the tech matures I foresee it taking a huge chunk out of the current industry.

@ Battle Ready Studios - We'll see - if this takes of as much as it has the potential to, they may have no choice but to take some sort of action - not sure what though, but.....

@ Legoburner - You've got some interesting ideas of how gaming companies could tackle this, which will of course be easy for larger companies like GW to implement but could sink a lot of smaller companies who just specialise in making miniatures. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out - will it revolutionise the way we collect our armies? or will it amount to nothing? Would you want to print a ready to go army? or do you want the pleasure/challenge or whatever of actually building and painting them yourself? I think I feel a poll coming on!

And here it is:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/425963.page

As I read this, i realize that GW is going to have to completely change their business model from being the "premiere maker of toy soldiers" to being the "premiere game making' company.

Hoping to make money on models is the loser's future. Instead, they need to broaden their mission statement and build accordingly.

Just have a look at some of the 3d sculpting being done on sites like CGhub, it really is only a matter of time. We should all start practicing now! Who wants to buy me Zbrush? <3

legoburner wrote:While I dont doubt that there will still be plenty of people paying full price for models in the traditional manner, the price is not the only point that will push people into this sort of piracy, as we've seen with music and movies. Printing models (once resolution is high enough and price per figure low enough) will give:
- instant access (1-2 hours) to any model that you have the file for, and perfect scanned models will be highly likely due to ease of distribution and relatively low cost of scanning.
- perfectly clean model with no mould lines or flash (once printing gets to that point)
- it is already parity prices to print vs finecast, and once material patents expire it will drop to perhaps $2-3 per model.
- printing in colour will be a future option, so those who dont like painting can have a high quality 'painted' force from the moment they are done printing

I'm not saying that it is ethical, people should do it, or people will do it, but that is a significant amount of added value which, as we've seen with music, will either force a change in direction from the big miniature companies to offer more added value with their products, or force a drop in prices, or if they are crazy, a rise in prices to reflect the new supply/demand curve.

If I was going to make recommendations on surviving when it happens, I'd focus on printed materials (books, etc) which can not be pirated fully effectively, as even ebooks lack some of the grace of printed material, I'd add lots of freebies to each box (dice, decals, specialist basing materials, etc), I'd drop prices to be no more than $4-$5 per model, I'd capitalise on pieces that would be too expensive to print for a while in 3D resin by focusing on plastic production, using large pieces where possible, and other things that would add value to purchases to counter mould lines and shipping delays.

In a situation where high-fidelity 3D printing was low cost enough to be common (or semi-common at least) the logical thing would be for GW to get out of foundry/casting/manufacturing all together and only produce IP (sculpt files) and rules.

The reduction in capital, labor and material costs (because they would just be a rules, books and 3D sculpture producer) would allow extremely aggressive pricing which, along with an embrace of the new technology, would undercut piracy.

But GW is much more likely to take the tact of a large music company in 1998. They'll still think they're entitled to their old income sources and will stonewall on new technologies. Which will destroy them (because GW is a lot less culturally necessary than, say, commercial music as an industry).

It's a massive shift in the supply curve with a resultant drop in price (if you still want to sell your product). You can like it or not but it's not really an ethical issue.

yeah.
DIY 3D scanning at home is starting up too!
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1491

the results of this home made scanner are ulgy...
... but shows that in a few years we can build a 3d printer and Print ourselves a 3D scanner and scan/print whatever we want!


a scanned artichoke!


Panic...