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Jihallah wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
It's nice to see that some Daemon players can make GK's cry - they deserve it considering how smug and condecending I find alot of GK's players to be towards Daemon players! But you can't assume that just because you can make a maxed-out fatecrusher list work, means it'll work everywhere and that Daemon players should all run it!

Keep believing what you want. Your Psychotroke grenades are a mickey mouse solution if you think it will let you overcome Fatecrusher. You may gimp one of the Blood Crusher squads, but you are unlikely to significantly impact them all.
Bloodcrushers in Fateweavers bubble overpower Draigo\Librarian\Techmarine + Paladins in close combat. I have done it time and time again. And my Bloodthirster has a 2++ invulnverable save against Draigo and all of his cronies.

As far as terrain goes; you can declare the entire table difficult terrain, you will still likely use. I normally deep strike all of my Daemons directly into difficult terrain (counts as dangerous) when I can. The extra cover is often worth it, and the odd model
that rolls a 1, will usually get to reroll invulnerable saves for the dangerous test. A few odd wounds on a crusher squad is a nuisance, nothing else.

I was going to respond to him, but I figured we were all going to just ignore him and hope he gets the idea instead of telling him his local area ain't nothing special And a good point on terrain. I'd also mention that I find the amount/type of terrain mentioned to be a boon with assault based armies, especially armies like daemons. Makes it much easier to isolate units/chunks of the opponents army. Isolated in tight area vs daemons=not cool!

Oh c'mon dude. I never said my local area was the best\greatest. I have just played a lot of games Vs. Grey Knights; using both Fatecrusher and Chaos Space Marines. That seems to be all I have been playing lately is Grey Knights.
Grey Knights for breakfast, Grey Knights for lunch, Grey Knights for dinner, and Grey Knights for dessert.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Oh c'mon dude. I never said my local area was the best\greatest. I have just played a lot of games Vs. Grey Knights; using both Fatecrusher and Chaos Space Marines.

I never said your local was the best/greatest o_O I was agreeing with you...

The truth is that, at this time, a standard grey knight list is nearly as powerful as an optimal CSM list.

I played an 1850 objective game against my friends Nurgle CSM. It was an optimized list, the basic cookie cutter.

2 DPs wings, MoN, warptime. 7 PBs Meltax2 in rhino (four of these). 5 Obliterators and a defiler.

That's a pretty bog standard competitive list for nurgle and with my mixed grey knights (no duplicate units except for 2 psyfle dreads), I was able to secure a victory, although it was a hard fight.

That being said, I think if I were to have spammed purifiers and psyflemen, or any other of the "competitive" grey knights lists I would have likely won much easier.

I think in order to beat most GK lists you should avoid CC and stack up on obliterators and out range him. Obliterators are still a royal pain in the ass for any army, and are excellent for their points costs. I say avoid CC because even nurgle daemon princes can have a tough time with terminators or purifiers, although they'd probably destroy a strike squad. Just my two cents.

You won't believe me, but I managed to kill Draigo with a few plasma shots... and the flamethrower from my retreating Chaos Vindicator. I could also crush one GK under my Chaos Rhino's tracks. Apart from dissolving some with the bile shot from one of my Blight Drones. My friend and I have many anecdotes of our battles
But yes, I have to say they're tought as hell. I'm always holding a firing line until they're close, then I retreat to continue to fire XD

Noise Marines might actually have a purpose. Being able to be at the same range and firing more if you stand still can put more shots into the Grey Knights. Blastmaster at further range can also pop more of them if they have 3+ saves, and in Close Combat it might be a better idea to charge, especially if the Knights don't have many halberds or none at all, because you attack first. Just an observation, so don't shoot the messenger.

What are the rules for Blight Drones?

Sounds like the only viable option will be for a stand and shoot approach but thanks for all the advice

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:What are the rules for Blight Drones?

Sounds like the only viable option will be for a stand and shoot approach but thanks for all the advice

They're from Forge World, Siege of Vracks, part 3 I think. These are their rules and wargear:

- Vehicle, Fast, Skimmer
- Composition: 1-3 drones per unit

BS Front Side Rear
2 12 11 10

- Wargear: Reaper Autocannon, Mawcannon.
* Mawcannon: can be shot in two ways:
+ Vomit: Template, S 6, AP 4, Assault 1
+ Phelgm: 36", S 8, AP 3, Assault 1, 5" Blast

- Special Rules: Daemonic Possesion, Explosion of Puss (Destroyed results are treated as Explodes)
- Can be used as Fast Attack units in a Chaos Daemons army, or in a CSM army that includes at least 1 unit of Plague Marines.

As you can see, gotta love these guys ^^

GK have the ability to be a very good shooty army or a very good choppy army, but their units are so expensive that they just don't have enough to do both at the same with any reasonable degree of redundancy.

Meanwhile, with the ability to take special weapons and when everybody gets a bolter and pistol/CCW for free, you have even your most basic units that are decent at both shooting and chopping. You're not going to be better at shooting than a shooty GK list or choppy than a choppy GK list, but you will always be better at chopping than a shooty GK list and shooting than a choppy GK list.

Basically, you have to force your opponent to play to his weaknesses, as they're practically always going to be weaker than your weaknesses.

Actually, I think Noise Marines might be the key. At 25 points per model, they cost slightly less than Grey Knights, but can actually outshoot them. Initiative 5 base really punishes the opponent if he doesn't take halberds. If he does, you'll have even more Noise Marines.

Ailaros wrote:GK have the ability to be a very good shooty army or a very good choppy army, but their units are so expensive that they just don't have enough to do both at the same with any reasonable degree of redundancy.

Meanwhile, with the ability to take special weapons and when everybody gets a bolter and pistol/CCW for free, you have even your most basic units that are decent at both shooting and chopping. You're not going to be better at shooting than a shooty GK list or choppy than a choppy GK list, but you will always be better at chopping than a shooty GK list and shooting than a choppy GK list.

Basically, you have to force your opponent to play to his weaknesses, as they're practically always going to be weaker than your weaknesses.

The only problem with your statement are Purifyers. Yes it means less GK's on the table, but not by that much and it brings the best of GK shooting alongside the better GK choppy abilities.

The only thing to do against Purifyer spam is to simple focus on individual units and wipe them out completely before moving onto the next target. Leaving even 1 or 2 survivors of a purifyer squad is deadly because they'll be just as choppy as an equal number of 'zerkers with solid shooting, on top of being able to throw out 'winning flame' and still auto-hit entire units.

DarkHound wrote:Actually, I think Noise Marines might be the key. At 25 points per model, they cost slightly less than Grey Knights, but can actually outshoot them. Initiative 5 base really punishes the opponent if he doesn't take halberds. If he does, you'll have even more Noise Marines.

The only GKs they're cheaper than are GKTs, Paladins, and Interceptors (interceptors by 1pt); Noise Marines with Blasters are more expensive than GKSS, Purgation Squads, and Purifiers. Both the GKSS and Purgation models are only 20pts base, so GKSS models with halberds come to the same cost, and Purgations 2pts less; a Purifier with a halberd comes to only a single point more.

Take 3 units of chosen, all with 5 plasma guns, loaded into rhinos and outflank or hide them behind troops rhinos.

Then take as many units of CSM with plasma guns as you can afford.

Take a couple anti tank items like oblits to back that up, and take a sorcerer lord or 2 with lash(cheaper than a DP and can hide in squads) to pull those units into plasma range/out of cover, then put them back where they came from. That or take a cheap-o lord to save points!

I second the plasma gun opinion. Just last night I (once again) took small units of Plague Marines in a rhino with 2 plasma guns each and they worked wonders

i fought a GK army recently i lost but only because he had 1 guy left on an objective id pretty much wiped his army out and the units that did the most damage was my noise marines i had 4 squads of 5 and between them they killed 2 units of grey knight regulars a unit of terminators with a librarian and a stormraven

Just Dave wrote:If that's the case, then I still don't believe it to be a really viable option IMHO due to the manoeuvrability of such units, compared to the scoot-and-shoot ability of Grey Knights who should be quite capable of staying out of rapid fire range for a fair while.
I think a real disadvantage the Grey Knights have is they have no real AP3 shooting...

Here is the thing. GK have a 24" range for all their tools, save for psydreads and psybacks.
A psydread or psyback will kill 1 MEQ per turn due the 3+ save, so you weather the fire. Take a few havocs or other ML elements, and you can even take out the psybacks.

The idea of the 'horde approach' is not to beat the crap out of the GK, its to give a big enough wall to where the GK player cannot push the advantage and win. In order to bring the majority of his fire to bear, he has to get within 24" of you, which gives you plenty of bolter shots to trade.