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tauxnimrod wrote:However as I said before besides noobies who is still paying full price for this?

Uh, I am? And I take offense to being called a "noob", too, I've been in the hobby for well over five years now.

Do you not have a local store, or do you not understand the concept of supporting one? Seems kinda awkward going in there to use their space to play games and then walking out without buying anything, don't you think?

juraigamer wrote:Maybe there wouldn't be as much price outcry if the finecast switch actually lowered prices, as was told.

More metal, more plastic, Less tantrumcast.

Where was there even an indication that finecast would lower prices?

The material cost of a miniature is almost negligable compared to the retail price. It is also commonly held that resin is more labour intensive; labour is a major component of a miniatures cost. Common sense says that it should probably cost more to manufacture not less.

notprop wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Maybe there wouldn't be as much price outcry if the finecast switch actually lowered prices, as was told.

More metal, more plastic, Less tantrumcast.

Where was there even an indication that finecast would lower prices?

The material cost of a miniature is almost negligable compared to the retail price. It is also commonly held that resin is more labour intensive; labour is a major component of a miniatures cost. Common sense says that it should probably cost more to manufacture not less.

Uh, the GW PR claptrap about the move to finecast being in response to the rising and volatile costs of metal. So they move to an admittedly cheaper material, and them charge higher prices as a result. Profit!

Common sense and GW pricing shouldn't be mentioned in the same thread. Also, common sense says you should charge a lot for limited run stuff (i.e. run of 700 resin figs) or something you expect to sell few of. However, when you are a multinational corp, selling millions of units of product, that mass production should result in lower prices, not higher.

It'd be like Henry Ford mass producing model Ts and charging $15,000 a pop for them, rather than $300 or whatever they sold for after mass production began.

*edited for spelling

Cruentus wrote:

notprop wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Maybe there wouldn't be as much price outcry if the finecast switch actually lowered prices, as was told.

More metal, more plastic, Less tantrumcast.

Where was there even an indication that finecast would lower prices?

The material cost of a miniature is almost negligable compared to the retail price. It is also commonly held that resin is more labour intensive; labour is a major component of a miniatures cost. Common sense says that it should probably cost more to manufacture not less.

Uh, the GW PR claptrap about the move to finecast being in response to the rising and volatile costs of metal.

So when did they say that? GW pretty much went: "here's Finecast, it's the best stuff we've done". They don't talk about costs/pricing publically bar what is told to share-holders. There is no GW PR.

keezus wrote:

English Assassin wrote:The very oldest Citadel models still in regular production are older even than that; two of Eldar Warlocks are Jes Goodwin's 1990 originals, making than, at 22, older than most players.

Y'mean these fine blokes? Remember when they used to come equipped with Force Rods too?



And these young 'uns say that the new models are light-years better than the old.

That's the fellows, and here they are again in unpainted monochrome glory in the old blue catalogue. £4 for two, as I recall.

tauxnimrod wrote:I like how they point out how you do get more bits now, but don't forget the level of detail. Just look at this SM from the 90's vs the Current SM model



Space Marines when I first started in 3ed

VS



Current Space Marines

I would pay more just because of how nice the models are. I don't mind paying extra for nice things.

Call me crazy, but I like the oldies better.

notprop wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Maybe there wouldn't be as much price outcry if the finecast switch actually lowered prices, as was told.

More metal, more plastic, Less tantrumcast.

Where was there even an indication that finecast would lower prices?

The material cost of a miniature is almost negligable compared to the retail price. It is also commonly held that resin is more labour intensive; labour is a major component of a miniatures cost. Common sense says that it should probably cost more to manufacture not less.

That's true, however it was a reasonable expectation that a model like the current model Zoanthrope, which came out in metal costing £12, should not cost £15.50 about one year later for exactly the same model in Finecast. (Admittedly there was a VAT increase in the interim which accounted for 30p.) It isn't fair to pick on a single example, of course, but that is how people notice things.

The original article was an interesting read.

Some time ago I compared Tau inflation on the basis that the same models released in 2001 were still on sale in 2011 (as they are in 2012, though some have become Finecast). The amount of increase ranges from 11.5% for the Devilfish to 200% for an Ethereal. It's interesting that the Devilfish has increased such a small amount -- no-one buys them as the Hammerhead kit is much better value, or was until it went up 50% over the decade. OTOH no-one uses Ethereals so why are they so expensive?

General inflation in the UK was very roughly about 25% over the decade. I haven't got time to find the official figures.

Kilkrazy wrote:

That's true, however it was a reasonable expectation that a model like the current model Zoanthrope, which came out in metal costing £12, should not cost £15.50 about one year later for exactly the same model in Finecast. (Admittedly there was a VAT increase in the interim which accounted for 30p.) It isn't fair to pick on a single example, of course, but that is how people notice things.

It was even more blatant than that. When Finecast was released, the Canis Wolfborn model went from £25 to £30

I'm also a fan of the less cluttered, older models but I'm not sure if that is siply from nostalgia.

OTOH no-one uses Ethereals so why are they so expensive?

You've answered your own question, they need to make more profit on an individual sale because they sell fewer.

I'm just gonna put this here: Finecast is great, metal sucked, and if I could, I'd put a massive "OPINION" watermark over this entire post.

keezus wrote:

English Assassin wrote:The very oldest Citadel models still in regular production are older even than that; two of Eldar Warlocks are Jes Goodwin's 1990 originals, making than, at 22, older than most players.

Y'mean these fine blokes? Remember when they used to come equipped with Force Rods too?



And these young 'uns say that the new models are light-years better than the old.

My God. 22? I feel sooo old. So very old. :-(

Dr. Delorean wrote:

OTOH no-one uses Ethereals so why are they so expensive?

You've answered your own question, they need to make more profit on an individual sale because they sell fewer.

I'm just gonna put this here: Finecast is great, metal sucked, and if I could, I'd put a massive "OPINION" watermark over this entire post.

By your logic then space marines should be super cheap because they sell so many of them. I would put an opinion watermark over your statements, as the failings of finecast are well documented.

Dr. Delorean wrote:

OTOH no-one uses Ethereals so why are they so expensive?

You've answered your own question, they need to make more profit on an individual sale because they sell fewer.

I'm just gonna put this here: Finecast is great, metal sucked, and if I could, I'd put a massive "OPINION" watermark over this entire post.

Yeah but Devilfish don't sell because the Hammerhead is a better kit, so they've kept the price of the Devilfish low and increased the Hammerhead a lot to encourage sales of the Devilfish.

GQuail wrote:do you view the cheaper price 2nd Ed plastic Space Marines as fair compared to their lack of posability?.

Plastic RT Marines, Orks, Guard and Squats were all fully posable. GW deliberately used inferior monotonous sculpts for the 2nd edition plastics to encourage people to replace them with metal. I used to be so annoyed by that at the time, because as a kid plastics were about all I could afford. There was no reason they couldn't have made decent affordable sculpts in plastic at that time, other than they didn't want people to buy plastic over metal.

To be honest I find your inflation adjusted prices to be around what I would consider reasonable. If it was £15 for a box of 10 Marines, I don't think you would hear me complain much about GW. Of course the actual price is £9 more which is a shocking rip off.

I think it's worth mentioning that GW was already ridiculously overpriced even in the 90s. Most of my friends from school quit playing in the early 90s because of the price increases. But after that time I think people had already lost perspective on how much miniatures should cost, so the prices just kept going up. I have a magazine from 1985, with an advert for a Dwarf Army (60 figures) £12.65. That works out around 20p each for metal figures, and while that might be 80p in today's money. GW are charging £10+.

To put things in a modern perspective, you can still get a 100 green plastic soldiers on ebay for about £3.The quality is not great, but they are literally 100 times cheaper than a guardsman (not to mention double the size). Lets be honest, the only thing that prevents me (and probably a lot of other people) from using cleaned up green army men in place of guardsmen, is that the scale is wrong.

I find threads complaining about GW pricing amusing. It isn't a requirement for anyone to buy GW or play WHFB or 40K. Don't like the prices feel free to start another system.

To put it into perspective though. I also go paintballing. My mid-grade tournament marker ran me around $700. Add in another $150 for my tank and another $200 for additional gear (mask, pods. pack ect) and I have sunk over 1K before I leave the house. Now to go paintballing on a typical weekend I'll have to spend $60.00 on a case of paint, $30 on the field fee so another $90.00 each time I go that I'll never see again. If I am lucky I can probably sell my marker for 1/2 what I paid for it. Most everything else is worthless. With my GW I can spend $700 on an army and when I go home I'll still have that army with me.

These kinds of posts are everywhere. And prices are only going to get higher. In Australia now I refuse to pay full price, which is a shame because I used to really enjoy going to my local GW to play and paint. Whenever I go inside I just can't justify the price of 10 guardsmen for $48, when only about 4 or 5 (not sure but it was 4th ed) years ago it was about $40 for 20, which is pretty much the same kit. Sure a lot of the kits have really nice detail, but in my opinion its not worth it. If I lived in the UK I would love to purchase products from wayland games or such.

I have just started IG, but I am very off putted by the insane prices to collect. Some of my friends pay full price for models, but now they barely buy much at all. Really I wish GW would get its act together before they price themselves out.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:I find threads complaining about GW pricing amusing. It isn't a requirement for anyone to buy GW or play WHFB or 40K. Don't like the prices feel free to start another system.

People frequently make that argument, but it is a flawed one. It isn't as simple as saying "If you don't like one product then buy another". Because Games Workshop don't sell a complete product. They sell something that you collect, and if you are someone who has gotten into collecting their stuff then you have already invested a lot of money and (more importantly) time working on your collection. So you have every right to feel cheated when GW constantly moves the goal posts making it more and more expensive for you to continue your collection.

It is reminiscent of the magazines where you build a model week by week, each week you get another piece of the model. They lure you in with "first issue only 99p". But you have to read the small print to find out that the second issue is £6.99. So you end up paying £200 for a model that probably only cost a fraction of that to buy complete. Sometimes the magazine then gets cancelled too, so you never get to finish the model anyway... That's what GW is like.

For what it's worth I already did stop buying from GW over a year ago and moved to other games. But that doesn't change the fact that I have already invested a load of time an money in GW armies. That is time and money wasted if you then have to quit and play another game.

The argument that GW is cheaper than other hobbies is also quite flawed. I happen to quite like playing chess, as a hobby chess costs me almost nothing. If my hobby was renting out hotel rooms, in order to stay up all night doing coke with prostitutes, I imagine that would cost quite a lot. Some hobbies are understandably more expensive than others...

However If I were to take a relatively cheap hobby like chess, and then charge the same amount for for it as one would expect to pay for the hotel/coke/hookers thing... Well than I'd have Warhammer.

As much as I would love to buy stuff retail price, as a student who works part time it's hard. I value my FLGS, and i've seen plenty of hobby stores close down, and its depressing. However, how can I justify to myself spending $50+ bucks on something I can get for less when I can barely afford food/bills? I still get all my non-mini stuff from my FLGS, so hopefully i'm at least helping them out somehow for letting me use their space.

And thus why I moved to mantic and ebay.

Found this: Might be interesting: http://comicfan83.tripod.com/marvelimage4p2.html

Items of interest: - NOTE: ALL THE FOLLOWING MODELS ARE THE SAME SCULPTS IN THE LIST. I've assumed 1996 for the year, based on models listed. IIRC, if it were 1998, we'd see the Vyper in that list. All funds in USD. According to the OP's post, actual inflation since 1996 should be around +50%. Let's see what we find...

0380 ELDAR AVATAR 18.99 ($46.50 - Finecast +145%)
8029B WARLOCK w/WITCHBLADES 6.50 ($13.75, +112%)
8029C WARLOCK w/FORCESTAF 6.50 ($13.75, +112%)
8038A ELDRAD ULTHRAN 8.50 ($30 - Finecast +253%)
8052A ELDAR WARP SPIDERS 6.50 / 8052B ELDAR WARP SPIDER EXARCH 6.50 (Prorated 1996 price: $22.75, $49.50 - Finecast +118%)
8057A KARANDRAS 8.50
8057B JAIN ZAR 8.50
8057C ASURMEN 8.50
8057D FUEGAN 8.50
8057E MAUGAN RA 8.50
8057F BAHARROTH 8.50 ($20.50 +142%)
0786 ELDAR JET BIKE 12.50 ($18 +44%)
0438 ELDAR SHRIEKER JETBIKE 12.99 ($25 +92%)

0466 CHAOS SPACE MARINE BIKE 14.99 ($18 +20%)
8038U ABADDON THE DESPOILER 11.99 ($30 - Finecast +150%)
8038V FABIUS BILE 9.99 ($24 +140%)
8038W KHARN THE BETRAYER 8.50 ($25 +194%)
8038X AHRIMAN 9.99 ($25 +150%)

0732 SPACE MARINE PLASTIC BIKE 12.50 ($18, +44%)
8001B SPACE MARINE SERGEANTS 4.50 ($16/14.75, +255%/+227%)
8005J TECH MARINE 5.50 ($18, +227%)
8005K SPACE MARINE APOTHECARY 5.50 ($13.75, +150%)
8005L COMPANY STANDARD BEARER 5.50 ($13.75, +150%)
8038B RAGNAR BLACKMANE 8.50 ($25 +194%)
8038C ULRICK THE SLAYER 8.50 ($18 +112%)
8038D NJAL STORMCALLER 8.50 ($19.75 +132%)
8038H MARNEUS CALGAR 8.50 ($19.75 +132%)
8038J AZRIALE AND HELMET BEARER 9.99 ($25, +150%)
8038K ASMODAI, DARK ANGEL CHAPLIAN 8.50 ($20.50 +141%)
8038L EZEKIEL DK. ANGEL CHIEF LIBRARIANS 8.50 ($25 +194%)
8038N CORBULO, SANGUINARY PRIEST 8.50 ($20.50 +141% )
8038P CHIEF LIB.MEPHISTON, LORD OF DEATH 8.50 ($25 +194%)
8038Q COMMANDER DANTE, LORD OF THE BLOOD 8.50 ($25 - Finecast +194%)
8038T BROTHER - CAPTAIN TYCHO 8.50 ($24 +182%)

8038R CAPTAIN AL'RAHEM OF TALLARN 6.50 ($18, +177%)
8060A ROUGHRIDERS 6.50 ($14.75 +127%)
8060B ROUGHRIDERS LIEUTENANT 6.50 ($14.75 +127%)
8060C ROUGHRIDER STANDARD 6.50 ($14.75 +127%)

0735 ORK BUGGY 17.50 ($35, +100%)

Observations: The old bike kits increased at around 40% (under inflation, with Chaos bike being the lowest at +20%). -edit- This is probably because bikes were SUPREMELY UNAFFORDABLE back in the day, which is why you seldom saw bike armies, and this was also one of the reasons Fat Bloke's White Scars were SO DAMN COOL. -/edit- The buggy seems to be an annomaly as it doubled in price. The metal characters increased all at least doubled their costs, with the popular ones almost tripling in cost with Eldrad tipping the scales at over 3.5x his 1996 cost. Good on ya, old chap.

The key metric in this list here are: Rough Riders and Warp Spiders, which are the only squads that have remained the same between then and now. Both have gone up approximately 120%, more than doubling the cost of inflation.

Smacks wrote: People frequently make that argument, but it is a flawed one. It isn't as simple as saying "If you don't like one product then buy another". Because Games Workshop don't sell a complete product. They sell something that you collect, and if you are someone who has gotten into collecting their stuff then you have already invested a lot of money and (more importantly) time working on your collection. So you have every right to feel cheated when GW constantly moves the goal posts making it more and more expensive for you to continue your collection.

I hardly find that a flawed argument. Just putting it into perspective that there are other hobbies that are more expensive than GW and once you spend money on them you have no way to recoup any of that investment. Companies like GW rely on disposable income to purchase their products (or kids with rich parents). If their pricing gets to the point that folks can no longer afford their products then they'll do something about it. Maybe they are there now and haven't realized it yet.

juraigamer wrote:Maybe there wouldn't be as much price outcry if the finecast switch actually lowered prices, as was told.

More metal, more plastic, Less tantrumcast.

Add to that that if it is a high weight with a low base support that you are really buying "droopcast." Nephew bought the ork shaman on a boar and the boar (rearing) has proceeded to droop down just on the weight of the fig!! Makes you want to go out and spend that 50% increase since dumping metal doesn't it?

Haven't read the whole thread, but do remember to factor in the increased amount of plastics reducing prices on certain units.

Latest example would be Vampire Count black knights. They were what, £7 a pop in metal, and now £18.50 for 5. Apply this across the ranges, and (larger army sizes apart, as these aren't necessarily compulsory) and the whole price hike thing has a different perspective.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Haven't read the whole thread, but do remember to factor in the increased amount of plastics reducing prices on certain units.

Latest example would be Vampire Count black knights. They were what, £7 a pop in metal, and now £18.50 for 5. Apply this across the ranges, and (larger army sizes apart, as these aren't necessarily compulsory) and the whole price hike thing has a different perspective.

@MDG: Changes in material, and transitions to new sculpts are poor indicators of pricing trends. Cavalry have typically fared well, usually becoming cheaper by transitioning to plastic. Infantry are a mixed bag. Some redone models are cheaper, some are inexplicably expensive (gold swords) while others insist higher prices are offset by better value by due to added options packaged with the models. I don't think any of the plastic monsters got cheaper. Finecast resulted in a price raise across the board. All these introduce variability into how the price is set and as such, I think they should be conciously omitted from any analysis on overall pricing trends.

Citadel maintains a significant catalogue that has stayed constant for at least 10 years old at any time and these provide a better benchmark of Citadel prices over the years due to Games Workshop's usage of pricing bands. Please see my above post regarding 2nd edition models still in production. The increases for Rough Riders, Warp Spiders and many character models are particularily interesting, considering these models have not changed in almost 20 years.

Not saying owt about the value (that being based entirely on perception). Just a straight out price comparisson. Steam Tank for instance was £50.00 when first released in metal. £35.00 when first released in plastic.

That's a straight out £15.00 saving between the two, yes? Whether you feel the £35.00 for the plastic version is worth it is entirely a personal statement.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Not saying owt about the value (that being based entirely on perception). Just a straight out price comparisson. Steam Tank for instance was £50.00 when first released in metal. £35.00 when first released in plastic.

No it wasn't, the first steam tank I recall was about £20-25. Then they re-released a metal looking more like the current plastic kit and then it was about £40 which was a hell of a lot even some years ago. You're right the plastic kit was cheaper when it did eventually appear, but only because the metal kit was insanely priced.

@Howard: I think that Grotsnik is talking about the 2009 re-release, which was decried as insanely priced - when you and I are thinking about the 1992 original Steam Tank, which was in the $40 range.


CLASSIC

@Grotsnik: Steam tank from metal to plastic - savings. I don't think anyone will deny that transition resulted in savings. The Bloodcrusher metal to plastic was another notable one. I would still like to state that this seems to be the exception rather than the norm: Example:

0443 CADIAN SHOCK TROOPERS 26.99 (1996, Metals)

When the Cadians were released in plastic, they were $22 USD in 3rd ed. Like you said. Cheaper, and you got twice as many, even though you gave up having the metal heavy and special weapons, which cost roughly $30 to add back for two squads - So for two fully kitted squads you were looking at $22+30, which is around parity to the metal price - but you ended up with some spare grunts!) In the time between then and now, the price per that same model has increased +164% (10 models for $29) and the heavy weapons and most often used special weapons are still extra.

0456 SPACE MARINE TACTICAL SQUAD 31.99 (1996, metals)

The same could be said for the 3rd edition plastic space marines. Sure you got a free flamer and missile launcher, but if you needed anything else, you were shelling out $10 for a devestator marine and/or a special weapon marine. This is currently still the case for tactical heavy weapons. Only that the base tactical box has increased in price from $22 at the beginning to $37.25. This is an increase of +70%. Other than including one of each special weapon and some more gubbins... there is little to no improvement over the 3rd Edition launch models.

So while there is some savings in the transition from metal to plastic - the overall trend seems to be one of continuous increase with the odd decrease when a model gets redone / repackaged (i.e. Finecast Ushabti.)

Boss GreenNutz wrote:I find threads complaining about GW pricing amusing. It isn't a requirement for anyone to buy GW or play WHFB or 40K. Don't like the prices feel free to start another system.

To put it into perspective though. I also go paintballing. My mid-grade tournament marker ran me around $700. Add in another $150 for my tank and another $200 for additional gear (mask, pods. pack ect) and I have sunk over 1K before I leave the house. Now to go paintballing on a typical weekend I'll have to spend $60.00 on a case of paint, $30 on the field fee so another $90.00 each time I go that I'll never see again. If I am lucky I can probably sell my marker for 1/2 what I paid for it. Most everything else is worthless. With my GW I can spend $700 on an army and when I go home I'll still have that army with me.

I agree completely. We arnt FORCED to play GW games, not by any stretch of the imagination. Not to mention that EVERYTHING costs more now then it did in the mid 90s. Im pretty sure I didnt pay nearly 4 bucks for a box of lucky charms back in 95.

And to further add to your point, I used to mud bog alot, it was a blast and stole my life for over a year. In the end it got to pricey and I left the hobby, BUT this is what I personally put into it money wise. I bought my truck for $500 (which was a steal) I paid $400 for the tires I put on it, $40 for the rims. I had to replace a fender, the rocker panels and buy sheeting for the floors, so lets say another $200 on that. Enough rubberized undercoating to keep it from rusting, so another $50, the season pass to go out to the play area, $35 and lastly, my truck got a whole 9 miles to the gallon in 2 wheel drive, a sportly 7 in 4x4, and gas was around $3 bucks a gallon, so I had to fill it up EVERY time I went out, so probably 30-40 bucks?

So I had to spend 30ish dollars EVERYTIME I wanted to play my game of mud bogging, how much do you HAVE to spend to play GW games? I swaer, people bitch just to bitch

KingCracker wrote:So I had to spend 30ish dollars EVERYTIME I wanted to play my game of mud bogging, how much do you HAVE to spend to play GW games? I swaer, people bitch just to bitch

How does that mean anything? By that measure I could say...

I have to pay 30 million dollars EVERYTIME I want to go into space. How much do you HAVE to spend to put on GUCCI sunglasses? Therefore GUCCI sunglasses (1000% mark up) are sold to customers at GUCCI's best possible price.

Where is the logic here?

Gucci don't sell sunglasses at the best possible price, they sell them at a ridiculously inflated price. To people who want something that no one else can afford as a status symbol.

Games Workshop don't sell miniatures at the best possible price either. Their target audience seems to be people who started collecting when it was cheaper, and will begrudgingly put up with getting shafted for a little bit longer in order to finish their army. That doesn't bode well for customer satisfaction.

The problem with comparing anything with inflation is that inflation statistics are easily manipulated. If you look at the basket of goods that are used to calculate UK inflation - internet dating, the cost of mobile phone calls (which was irrelevant because of texting) mortgage rates (that were kept artificially low (with the results we see in the banking crisis) etc - they have very little to do with the actual cost of living - or more specifically to the costs of doing business.

A better comparison would be to compare GW products against other figure manufacturers and see how their prices have changed over the period.