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Some of you may be interested by this blog post which I shared with my local 40K chums. In it I compare Games Workshop prices over the eyars using some old White Darves to see how the price rises compare with inflation.

A lot of people, myself included, have complained about the current cost of getting into the hobby - and in particular I've often heard people complain that price rises are well beyond inflation. But do my figures back that up on some key items? You need to look long term at this - a price rise when the item was fixed for 5 years beforehand isn't the same thing as a price rise every eyar or two. So i grabbed my UK White Dwarves, a calculator and got to work.

The end result is slightly odd, with price rises overall not as bad as you think. Some comparison is awkward because it's the same game unit but not the same mould - do you view the cheaper price 2nd Ed plastic Space Marines as fair compared to their lack of posability? Individual figures have done particularly poor: Abaddon's price rise for functionally the same figure (now in resin) is pretty hefty, and ordering Heavy Weapons marines cost sthe price Id' associate with two or three of them.. The price rise on the current Land Raider, though, is bang on inflation - it was always an expensive piece of kit.

There's a Space Marine bias to my comparison since that's an army that everyone knows a little. (Also, my old White Dwarf collection is part in my flat, part at my parent's house - I couldn't easilly find some other items.) I'd be interested in seeing more people do the same thing - for example, the Avatar model hasn't changed since 2nd Ed and I'm curious how its' price faces up to inflation. I also know some boxes have gone down in model quantity over the years and wonder how those old prices would compare.

Obviously my comparison has several issues - inflation is not universal across all industries and Games Workshop can make a not-unfair claim that the material they use is volitile. (Though I note that toys have actually got cheaper in the most recent UK inflation report.) Also, my only comparison is the UK and I know a lot of major complaints about GW prices are keyed to other countries - Americans and Australians may look at this very differently. I still think it's an interesting thougth experiment, though.

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GQuail wrote:
The end result is slightly odd, with price rises overall not as bad as you think.

When every calculation that you have made (bar the plastic Dreadnought and MAYBE the Land Raider), shows that prices are over 30% higher than they should have been, I don't really see how you can reach this conclusion...

I like how they point out how you do get more bits now, but don't forget the level of detail. Just look at this SM from the 90's vs the Current SM model



Space Marines when I first started in 3ed

VS



Current Space Marines

I would pay more just because of how nice the models are. I don't mind paying extra for nice things.

IMHO one of the best items for benchmarking is:

Eldar Jetbikes - Same sculpts as 2nd Edition. Materials unchanged, boxed quantity, unchanged (despite the 5 bike box being discontinued).
Khorne Berserkers - Sprues are the same as in 3rd Ed, Repackaged to have fewer per box - easily pro-rated on a per model basis.
Catachans - Sprues are the same as in 3rd Ed, Repackaged to have fewer per box - easily pro-rated on a per model basis.

Genestealers would probably be another good benchmark, as they've been around a long time, see lots of play in every edition and have been plastic for a long time, in various incarnations.

Other 2nd Edition models still in production:

Pheonix Lords
Eldrad and about half the warlocks in the range
SM Special Characters: Mephiston, Dante, Tycho, Azrael, Ezekiel, Ragnar

There's a shift in the way the game is played though. Simply, games are bigger now then when I started. When 3rd edition was released all the points values were lower, the powerful troops were less pronounced. Terminators were almost indestructible under 2nd ed. A 'standard' sized game is not vastly more expensive before you consider the costs per head of figure.

The price increase of regular troops as been the most detrimental IMO. Special characters have always been costly, but the current Catachan plastics were released at 20 for £10 and now they are 10 for £18. They aren't even nice sculpts...

Fantasy armies at the size GW rules expect are simply out of the question.

Have you thought about inflation against pecific industries for your comparision, specifically UK manufactiuring?

Might give ou a truer picture of the actual position.

Also Toys generally tend to be made in China/Asia

tauxnimrod wrote:I like how they point out how you do get more bits now, but don't forget the level of detail. Just look at this SM from the 90's vs the Current SM model



Space Marines when I first started in 3ed

VS



Current Space Marines

I would pay more just because of how nice the models are. I don't mind paying extra for nice things.

With the exception of the flamer......there isnt that much difference between the two. Some additional bits added to the newer ones, but they are in effect interchangable. Not sure why I would want to pay that much more for just some add on bits.

tauxnimrod wrote:I like how they point out how you do get more bits now, but don't forget the level of detail. Just look at this SM from the 90's vs the Current SM model

The 3rd edition starter box had the new modular marines, albiet without all the extra scrollwork, purity seals, gubbins and special weps. The body sculpts have remained unchanged for over 10 years. To be fair, the 2nd edition metals don't look that bad, and with a bit of work, can be made to fit in perfectly with the newer marines. In particular, GW is still selling a number of models from that vintage, and IMHO, they hold up admirably, considering that they're older than many of GW's target demographic. (The Techmarine is a personal favourite of mine... I own 3 of him.)

Howard A Treesong wrote:There's a shift in the way the game is played though. Simply, games are bigger now then when I started. When 3rd edition was released all the points values were lower, the powerful troops were less pronounced. Terminators were almost indestructible under 2nd ed. A 'standard' sized game is not vastly more expensive before you consider the costs per head of figure...........

Do players not drive the points size of games as well?

I feel that 1000-1500 is a good size for the current 40K rule set, but many seem to see 1500 as a minimum in my experience.

People want to field all the shiney units and dont want to choose between them it seems.

As for WFB, it seems that it has never lost the 500-600 point character idea, certainly not if my first Army Book for some years is anything to go by (VC). I doesn't seem that hard to fill out 2000-3000 on that basis.

Howard A Treesong wrote:There's a shift in the way the game is played though. Simply, games are bigger now then when I started. When 3rd edition was released all the points values were lower, the powerful troops were less pronounced. Terminators were almost indestructible under 2nd ed. A 'standard' sized game is not vastly more expensive before you consider the costs per head of figure.

The price increase of regular troops as been the most detrimental IMO. Special characters have always been costly, but the current Catachan plastics were released at 20 for £10 and now they are 10 for £18. They aren't even nice sculpts...

Fantasy armies at the size GW rules expect are simply out of the question.

First of who still pays full price? Their are plenty of online discounters now a days. Second they probly raised the army sizes assuming that people had more then what they needed and wanted an excuse to field it. I know when I played WHFB I had near 8K points worth of stuff (previous army book) in my O&G army but being that the average game was 2K I never needed to field the whole thing. Then the point values of stuff dropped and i found my units becoming more realistic in size the more I began to enjoy the game. Same goes for 40K when i started I got most of my guard stuff second hand and I had about 3K (modern point value) but I only ever fielded a small fraction of my collection because the standard being 1,500 only used a few models. In a way I'm glad that armies got larger on the table the games feel more like battles and not skirmishes.

I will say this thou gaming clubs need to be more open to Noobies. I was lucky in that I "grew up" in a game store and my dad's friend hooked me up with a sweet deal his guard army fro only $150 USD now this was a couple editions ago. However you won't find such great deals now a days so if you have any noobs come to your game club don't be a jerk and turn them away because they can't field 1,500-2K point armies, and instead make a smaller list and give them time to build. I've seen this a lot in game clubs I've been to and if I was the new player it would turn me away from the hobby thinking that the people who play the game are jerks.

There's a shift in the way the game is played though. Simply, games are bigger now then when I started. When 3rd edition was released all the points values were lower, the powerful troops were less pronounced. Terminators were almost indestructible under 2nd ed. A 'standard' sized game is not vastly more expensive before you consider the costs per head of figure.

The price increase of regular troops as been the most detrimental IMO. Special characters have always been costly, but the current Catachan plastics were released at 20 for £10 and now they are 10 for £18. They aren't even nice sculpts...

Fantasy armies at the size GW rules expect are simply out of the question.

It's fine if you have a big collection, but the entry cost to a newcomer is rather high.

keezus wrote:

tauxnimrod wrote:I like how they point out how you do get more bits now, but don't forget the level of detail. Just look at this SM from the 90's vs the Current SM model

The 3rd edition starter box had the new modular marines, albiet without all the extra scrollwork, purity seals, gubbins and special weps. The body sculpts have remained unchanged for over 10 years. To be fair, the 2nd edition metals don't look that bad, and with a bit of work, can be made to fit in perfectly with the newer marines. In particular, GW is still selling a number of models from that vintage, and IMHO, they hold up admirably, considering that they're older than many of GW's target demographic. (The Techmarine is a personal favourite of mine... I own 3 of him.)

I'm not saying the old models look bad but I like how the new models look more battle worn and IMO sleeker then the older ones.

Some interesting points regarding army size, that's definitely a big factor in the changing nature of the game. I only mention it briefly but it's arguably a big deal since it means that, in essence, you need twice as many models for a "normal" game.

The move to armies heavier on troops also means that you can no longer do the "25% of points on troops then go mental on special characters and maybe vehicles" - your 1500 point army will have a sizable amount of boxed sets in it, not just blisters.

It might be interesting to price up a 1500 point army in 1998, a 1500 point army in 2012 and see how they compare. In theory this is the same basic product that all 40K players are supposed to own but odds are it'd now look a much scarier prospect for a starting player.

One thing that will have been added to the cost over the years is:

Our toy soldiers are made from plastic whats plastic made from oil and oil has skyrocketed in price over the years.

GQuail wrote:Some interesting points regarding army size, that's definitely a big factor in the changing nature of the game. I only mention it briefly but it's arguably a big deal since it means that, in essence, you need twice as many models for a "normal" game.

The move to armies heavier on troops also means that you can no longer do the "25% of points on troops then go mental on special characters and maybe vehicles" - your 1500 point army will have a sizable amount of boxed sets in it, not just blisters.

It might be interesting to price up a 1500 point army in 1998, a 1500 point army in 2012 and see how they compare. In theory this is the same basic product that all 40K players are supposed to own but odds are it'd now look a much scarier prospect for a starting player.

That's a BIG reason SM armies are becoming more abundant amongst New players. Not only does the starter come with a fare amount of SM,but when compared to say the Tau or let go even further the Nids. You don't have to field as much. From what I see thou it seems SM stuff is priced a little higher then most other armies so it probably evens out in the end, but were humans and the illusions of more for less is always appealing.

However as I said before besides noobies who is still paying full price for this? https://www.miniaturemarket.com/ 25% off ALL GW PRODUCT. Check em' out I'm lucky to live by the store front so I don't have to deal with S&H just Sales Tax still comes out to be cheaper then GW.

Steu wrote:One thing that will have been added to the cost over the years is:

Our toy soldiers are made from plastic whats plastic made from oil and oil has skyrocketed in price over the years.

GW has a stated average profitably of 78% on each miniature currently. The price of oil has an influence of about 3% on the actual costs of a miniature.

Also, the price of oil is already taken into account on the inflation...


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tauxnimrod wrote:
However as I said before besides noobies who is still paying full price for this? https://www.miniaturemarket.com/ 25% off ALL GW PRODUCT. Check em' out I'm lucky to live by the store front so I don't have to deal with S&H just Sales Tax still comes out to be cheaper then GW.

Again that is a false argument. There have always been internet retailers and before the big GW internet crackdown of 200? (I don't remember the exact year that GW closed all those sites), the discounts offered were on the 40%+ scale. So you are also paying more now than 10 years ago on the internet front...

notprop wrote:Have you thought about inflation against pecific industries for your comparision, specifically UK manufactiuring?

Might give ou a truer picture of the actual position.

Also Toys generally tend to be made in China/Asia

Yeah, we can't underestimate the power of overseas manufacturing rather than making them in Nottingham. Interesting point about comparing to other British manufacturing - I know from my own work in construction how omni-present and challenging price rises can be.

keezus wrote:IMHO one of the best items for benchmarking is:

Eldar Jetbikes - Same sculpts as 2nd Edition. Materials unchanged, boxed quantity, unchanged (despite the 5 bike box being discontinued).
Khorne Berserkers - Sprues are the same as in 3rd Ed, Repackaged to have fewer per box - easily pro-rated on a per model basis.
Catachans - Sprues are the same as in 3rd Ed, Repackaged to have fewer per box - easily pro-rated on a per model basis.

Genestealers would probably be another good benchmark, as they've been around a long time, see lots of play in every edition and have been plastic for a long time, in various incarnations.

Other 2nd Edition models still in production:

Pheonix Lords
Eldrad and about half the warlocks in the range
SM Special Characters: Mephiston, Dante, Tycho, Azrael, Ezekiel, Ragnar

That's a great list of interesting comparisons and exactly waht I was hoping from Dakka. The ones which have been repackaged to have less in the box would be particularly interesting since I know players who play those armies can be quite resentful about that.

PhantomViper wrote:When every calculation that you have made (bar the plastic Dreadnought and MAYBE the Land Raider), shows that prices are over 30% higher than they should have been, I don't really see how you can reach this conclusion...

That's just not how I read the figures, I guess. Yes, there are price rises above inflation across the board - but as I say, direct comparison in some cases is almost impossible. The Space Marine Captain goes from single metal figure to plastic kit - that's a whole different kettle of fish, even if it's the same rules in-game. The Land Raider has been pretty cosntant in the past decade, only shifting notably down in price when you go back to a different kit. Albeit a kit I wish I owned and would pay modern day Land Raider prices for in a heartbeat.... Factoring in that plastic & metal really has gone up in price beyodn inflation over the years, I'm not sure these figures are as mental as some posters online would make you think they are.

Space Marines are perhaps the most bought kits, though, so the economy there might be different. The above Eldar and Imperial Guard suggestions might make me re-evaluate my impression, since less models per box plus price increases would probably tip the balance into "taking the smeg".


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tauxnimrod wrote:That's a BIG reason SM armies are becoming more abundant amongst New players. Not only does the starter come with a fare amount of SM,but when compared to say the Tau or let go even further the Nids. You don't have to field as much. From what I see thou it seems SM stuff is priced a little higher then most other armies so it probably evens out in the end, but were humans and the illusions of more for less is always appealing.

OT: It'll never happen but I wish they'd be more bold with the starter kits. Fantasy does way moer different races, with Elves, Dwarves, Lizardmen, Bretonnians, Empire and probably others I've forgotten getting a chance. Meanwhile, Marines have been in every starter set.

I know two Xenos would jsut be too much, and that it's convenient that Marines cost lots of points per figure, but would an Imperial Guard or Chaos Space marine starter box kill them?

tauxnimrod wrote:However as I said before besides noobies who is still paying full price for this? https://www.miniaturemarket.com/ 25% off ALL GW PRODUCT. Check em' out I'm lucky to live by the store front so I don't have to deal with S&H just Sales Tax still comes out to be cheaper then GW.

I'm not sure 25% off american prices is actually a benefit on British GW Prices. More seriously, I do know from independant retailers here in the UK that offering discount on GW stuff is very difficult, for the same reason that the site you linked to doesn't actually have a hard & fast web presence for GW showing prices. I've not done much purchasing in GW since I restarted (mostly scouring ebay for odds and ends) but I've had little luck finding UK resellers who can offer any dort of serious discount.

It';s a bit difficult to make fair comparisons over the years because many figures get a resculpt. The modern style of multi-part marine appeared with 3rd ed, they were 10 for £10. They are fery good, but I think they might have been done again since then. But they aren't so different. You could go way back and say that marines used to be 30 for £10, but the sculpts were totally different.

Although the Rhino Mk1 was made for a loooong time. They were originally 3 for £10, and then once individually boxed crept up and up until they were £15 each. Then the new sculpt was released.

keezus wrote:Other 2nd Edition models still in production:

Pheonix Lords
Eldrad and about half the warlocks in the range
SM Special Characters: Mephiston, Dante, Tycho, Azrael, Ezekiel, Ragnar

Currently I think the oldest models are some of the vampire counts range done in Finecast. It's staggering to think that a couple of the necromancers were in the 1993 catalogue making them 19 years old!!

tauxnimrod wrote:
First of who still pays full price?

People without credit cards, or where social pressures make buying a ton of stuff online and showing up to the FLGS with a ton of bought elsewhere makes it rather awkward, people who don't want to wait on shipping, etc.

That said, even online retailers with 20% off are more expensive than GW retail was 5 years ago or less. Look at basic Guardsmen, even with 20% online retailer discount (and lets assume free shipping), you're still paying about 32% more for basic guardsmen than you were even 3 years ago.

If the price for a model goes up 20%, then it's a 20% price increase regardless of whether you get a discount or not.

I tend to pay full price for miniatures because I like having a local place to play. Our local "discount shop" went out of business, despite regularly offering 25% off.

easyist way to put it, IG Cadian basic troops back a few years 20 figures for £20 now same models 10 for £18.50 OMFG

Howard A Treesong wrote:

keezus wrote:Other 2nd Edition models still in production:

Pheonix Lords
Eldrad and about half the warlocks in the range
SM Special Characters: Mephiston, Dante, Tycho, Azrael, Ezekiel, Ragnar

Currently I think the oldest models are some of the vampire counts range done in Finecast. It's staggering to think that a couple of the necromancers were in the 1993 catalogue making them 19 years old!!

The very oldest Citadel models still in regular production are older even than that; two of Eldar Warlocks are Jes Goodwin's 1990 originals, making than, at 22, older than most players.

So far as I'm aware, Ragnar, Ulrik and the power armoured Njal complete the list of Rogue Trader-era 40k miniatures still available.

We all moan about the prices and decline in 'community input' but continue to hand our money over to GW. Firstly GW is an incredibly lucrative and successful company. They're listed on the London Stock Exchange, have cornered the wargaming market, can boast an international customer base, are occasionally featured in the Financial Times and their unique gaming 'fluff' means their concepts can't be copied by competitors. They can charge whatever they like for their products and still expect an excellent return in profit. In their defence, the models are excellent quality and a considerable portion of their company is based in the UK where wages impact on product price. Despite this, innovations in 'model design' and the switch to plastics means it costs them far less to produce a box of soldiers than say, 10 years ago. We dont see this profit being passed onto the customer because they are a very popular and successful company. Their not interested in altruism, why should they be? If the trend continues, they'll begin to struggle and lower their prices, as it stands we all have to fork out a s**t load of money for boxes of miniature soldiers completely disproportionate to their material worth.

English Assassin wrote:The very oldest Citadel models still in regular production are older even than that; two of Eldar Warlocks are Jes Goodwin's 1990 originals, making than, at 22, older than most players.

Y'mean these fine blokes? Remember when they used to come equipped with Force Rods too?



And these young 'uns say that the new models are light-years better than the old.

Hey... Nice post Eorltheyoung. Totally agree. So I exalted it, which i think is Dakka's cack answer to facebook's dokey 'like'. Is your name a LotR Reference? Totally cool dude.

Maybe there wouldn't be as much price outcry if the finecast switch actually lowered prices, as was told.

More metal, more plastic, Less tantrumcast.