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I'd say Eldar with Farseers, Autarchs, and Avatars as well. Good force multipliers all of them, but Farseers especially. Only problem is the rest of the codex need those seers to be worth a damned, which sort of ruins the glory.

If you want to be exceptionally evil try this:

Marshal w/ TH+SS, adamantine mantle and terminator armour, Master of Sanctity w/ twin LCs and terminator honours, 6 initiates w/ BP+CCW's 2 w/ melta guns, 3 specialists w/ twin LC's and a sergeant w/ twin LCs. Squad has furious charge, krak grenades and crusader seals. Standard bearer has the chapter banner. Land Raider Crusader w/ SB, HK.

so LRC closes to 8" away squad jumps out and both open fire giving 22 bolt shots, 2 melta shots and an assault cannon. then the squad charges : 24 CCW, 24 LC, 5 TH attacks with re-rolls to hit. Thats gonna sting

Eldrad. If he doesnt kill you with mindwar, he will with his powerweapon singing spear. He out inits most, and he has (most likely) a rerollable 3+ invul save. DONE XD

The Crusader wrote:If you want to be exceptionally evil try this:

Marshal w/ TH+SS, adamantine mantle and terminator armour, Master of Sanctity w/ twin LCs and terminator honours, 6 initiates w/ BP+CCW's 2 w/ melta guns, 3 specialists w/ twin LC's and a sergeant w/ twin LCs. Squad has furious charge, krak grenades and crusader seals. Standard bearer has the chapter banner. Land Raider Crusader w/ SB, HK.

so LRC closes to 8" away squad jumps out and both open fire giving 22 bolt shots, 2 melta shots and an assault cannon. then the squad charges : 24 CCW, 24 LC, 5 TH attacks with re-rolls to hit. Thats gonna sting

Take Helbrecht instead of the Marshal, move the Adamantine Mantle to the Chaplain, add 4 scouts (from Helbrecht's special ability). Add Blessed Hull to the LRC. Add combi-melta to the Chaplain.

I run a similar thingie in Apocalypse. It's woefully overcosted, but it's FUN!

Ailaros wrote:Yes, but a LOT of people here seem to be missing the OP's point. This isn't a thread about "best HQ in general", it's "best HQ in a one-on-one fight".

The fact that ghaz gives waaugh, and that guard advisers give meta buffs doesn't mean much here.

What, so the fact that it makes Ghazzy's 2+ save invulnerable means nothing does it?

Edit: Maybe I should have read to the bottom of the page first before defending my choice by repeating mightywalrus' point.

If this doesn't count special characters, I'll always maintain either Space Marine Captains, who for around 120 get a storm bolter, LC, Power Armour, 4+ invul as standard, and a good WS/BS. Cheap as chips. Or Warbosses, absurd strength with a relatively cheap PK, tough, and can WAAAAGH to make da boyz better.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Well, Ghaz's Waaagh! gives him a 2++ save, so it kinda does matter.

I don't think there's a lot of HQs in the game that can take Ghaz 1 on 1 in CC if he puts up his Waagh!. The only ones I can think of are Brotherhood Champions and Crowe, and it's kinda a Pyrrhic Victory.

But Ghaz cannot call a Waagh! in the first turn, and there are plenty of 1vs1 opponents out there that will make sure he'll never make it to turn 2 with his otherwise measly 5++

Not saying 2++ isn't a great thing, but it shines alot better in the context of a broader game than it does in a 1vs1.

Zweischneid wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Well, Ghaz's Waaagh! gives him a 2++ save, so it kinda does matter.

I don't think there's a lot of HQs in the game that can take Ghaz 1 on 1 in CC if he puts up his Waagh!. The only ones I can think of are Brotherhood Champions and Crowe, and it's kinda a Pyrrhic Victory.

But Ghaz cannot call a Waagh! in the first turn, and there are plenty of 1vs1 opponents out there that will make sure he'll never make it to turn 2 with his otherwise measly 5++

Not saying 2++ isn't a great thing, but it shines alot better in the context of a broader game than it does in a 1vs1.

You seem woefully misinformed. Ghazzy has ork equivilent termi armor, with a 2+ save, as well as some rediculous number of wounds and ultra high toughness (havent got codex on me, so cant say numbers.).
Then youve got his 5++ save as well, which also carries immunity to instant death.

Jollydevil wrote:]You seem woefully misinformed. Ghazzy has ork equivilent termi armor, with a 2+ save, as well as some rediculous number of wounds and ultra high toughness (havent got codex on me, so cant say numbers.).

Yes, I know he has a 2+. But seriously, we're talking about the high-end of best-of-the-best HQ/SC, noone is gonna be bothered about a non-inv. save. Hell, there is enough stuff out there that even forces re-rolls on inv. save such as the Swarmlord or Astorath or "instant-death" despite EW such as Asurmen. And Ghaz doesn't have any more wounds than the competiton (Draigo, Calgar, Swarmlord, Logan, whathaveyou...)

Let's have a little example match-up: Abaddon vs. Ghaz (we give the charge to Ghaz for good measure)

Turn 1, Ork player round:
Abaddon: 7,5 attacks (average), 5 hits, 4,86 wounds (re-roll to wound), 3,24 unsaved against 5++ (rounded down)
Ghaz (charges) 7 attacks; 3,5 hits, 2,91 wounds, 1,46 unsaved against 4++ (rounded up)

Turn 1, CSM player round:
Abaddon: 7,5 attacks (average), 5 hits, 4,86 wounds (re-roll to wound), 3,24 unsaved against 5++ (rounded down); total of 6,48 wounds
Ghaz: 5 attacks, 2,5 hits, 2,09 wounds, 1,05 unsaved against 4++ (rounded up); total of 2,51 wounds.

So, in the first turn, Abaddon has taken an average of 2,5 wounds if we blithly ignore that Abaddon would strike before Ghaz and likely take him down before he could strike back in the second combat round of turn 1. Abaddon has a total of 4 wounds and is comfortably standing. In return, Ghaz has taken an average of almost 6,5 wounds. It's fair to assume that "on average" he'll be out before he can call his Waagh! (which, admittedly, would be a game changer).

You can run the numbers for Calgar, Draigo, Sanguinor, Swarmlord, Vect, whathaveyou. In 1-on-1, Ghaz largely doesn't have the staying-power to get to the 2++ which is his main asset.

Farseer.

Nice cheap choice with a lot of utility for helping your troops/keeping them alive.

A 'killy' HQ is only good in his immediate area; they're very localised. A support-orientated choice will always have the maximum utility, imo and project their influence further on the field.

Take a unit like Draigo - dead killy but ultimately a huge point sink who's only an influence in his assault.

for nid monstrous creatures why does nobody like regeneraition at all? and Ol one eye? I know he is not a HQ but still.


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Zweischneid wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:]You seem woefully misinformed. Ghazzy has ork equivilent termi armor, with a 2+ save, as well as some rediculous number of wounds and ultra high toughness (havent got codex on me, so cant say numbers.).

Yes, I know he has a 2+. But seriously, we're talking about the high-end of best-of-the-best HQ/SC, noone is gonna be bothered about a non-inv. save. Hell, there is enough stuff out there that even forces re-rolls on inv. save such as the Swarmlord or Astorath or "instant-death" despite EW such as Asurmen. And Ghaz doesn't have any more wounds than the competiton (Draigo, Calgar, Swarmlord, Logan, whathaveyou...)

Let's have a little example match-up: Abaddon vs. Ghaz (we give the charge to Ghaz for good measure)

Turn 1, Ork player round:
Abaddon: 7,5 attacks (average), 5 hits, 4,86 wounds (re-roll to wound), 3,24 unsaved against 5++ (rounded down)
Ghaz (charges) 7 attacks; 3,5 hits, 2,91 wounds, 1,46 unsaved against 4++ (rounded up)

Turn 1, CSM player round:
Abaddon: 7,5 attacks (average), 5 hits, 4,86 wounds (re-roll to wound), 3,24 unsaved against 5++ (rounded down); total of 6,48 wounds
Ghaz: 5 attacks, 2,5 hits, 2,09 wounds, 1,05 unsaved against 4++ (rounded up); total of 2,51 wounds.

So, in the first turn, Abaddon has taken an average of 2,5 wounds if we blithly ignore that Abaddon would strike before Ghaz and likely take him down before he could strike back in the second combat round of turn 1. Abaddon has a total of 4 wounds and is comfortably standing. In return, Ghaz has taken an average of almost 6,5 wounds. It's fair to assume that "on average" he'll be out before he can call his Waagh! (which, admittedly, would be a game changer).

You can run the numbers for Calgar, Draigo, Sanguinor, Swarmlord, Vect, whathaveyou. In 1-on-1, Ghaz largely doesn't have the staying-power to get to the 2++ which is his main asset.

well I do not mean to brag but in the battle was not actually 1v1 it was 1 hq vs 1 hq,a large troop and a trukk (what ever that is.) and good ol Htyrant wiped out every single ork unit. this was not actually just all but it was in a big game and the only close enemys were the orks. there were like 8 players on each side.

Zweischneid wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:]You seem woefully misinformed. Ghazzy has ork equivilent termi armor, with a 2+ save, as well as some rediculous number of wounds and ultra high toughness (havent got codex on me, so cant say numbers.).

Yes, I know he has a 2+. But seriously, we're talking about the high-end of best-of-the-best HQ/SC, noone is gonna be bothered about a non-inv. save. Hell, there is enough stuff out there that even forces re-rolls on inv. save such as the Swarmlord or Astorath or "instant-death" despite EW such as Asurmen. And Ghaz doesn't have any more wounds than the competiton (Draigo, Calgar, Swarmlord, Logan, whathaveyou...)

Let's have a little example match-up: Abaddon vs. Ghaz (we give the charge to Ghaz for good measure)

Turn 1, Ork player round:
Abaddon: 7,5 attacks (average), 5 hits, 4,86 wounds (re-roll to wound), 3,24 unsaved against 5++ (rounded down)
Ghaz (charges) 7 attacks; 3,5 hits, 2,91 wounds, 1,46 unsaved against 4++ (rounded up)

Turn 1, CSM player round:
Abaddon: 7,5 attacks (average), 5 hits, 4,86 wounds (re-roll to wound), 3,24 unsaved against 5++ (rounded down); total of 6,48 wounds
Ghaz: 5 attacks, 2,5 hits, 2,09 wounds, 1,05 unsaved against 4++ (rounded up); total of 2,51 wounds.

So, in the first turn, Abaddon has taken an average of 2,5 wounds if we blithly ignore that Abaddon would strike before Ghaz and likely take him down before he could strike back in the second combat round of turn 1. Abaddon has a total of 4 wounds and is comfortably standing. In return, Ghaz has taken an average of almost 6,5 wounds. It's fair to assume that "on average" he'll be out before he can call his Waagh! (which, admittedly, would be a game changer).

You can run the numbers for Calgar, Draigo, Sanguinor, Swarmlord, Vect, whathaveyou. In 1-on-1, Ghaz largely doesn't have the staying-power to get to the 2++ which is his main asset.

Fine then, if we're ignoring game durations and the impossibility of any one model to get into CC with Ghaz in turn 1: Saint Celestine and Thawn wins.


Do I get a cookie?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Fine then, if we're ignoring game durations and the impossibility of any one model to get into CC with Ghaz in turn 1: Saint Celestine and Thawn wins.


Do I get a cookie?

We don't have to. You claimed Ghaz was unbeatable in a 1vs1 and he isn't. Simples.

Wanna look at a larger game.. sure. His Waagh becomes a truck-load more useful as I've freely acknowledge, but so do other HQs different abilities. To name but one example.. Ultramarines with Calgar ignoring/avoiding the Ghaz Waagh, feeding him token squads or tarpit-TH/SS-Termies to waste/tide-over the Waaagh, using (Calgar-boosed) combat tactics to drop out again from CC and kite him along with AP2 bolters. And how would you "value" more supportive abilities of HQ such as Farseers, GK Grand Masters or, as a matter of fact, the non-personal advantages of Ghaz's Waagh to an Ork army?

It sure is a more interesting topic to discuss. I sure didn't raise the 1-vs-1 schtick to distract from it.

I'll put out some Vect lovin'.

Although he is no EW, he can lay the smackdown on anyone. He hits hard and fast so doesnt need to rely on his Shadow Field for long either.

Swarmlord is a tasty monster too though, created for duels such as this.

Lysander would rank higher in my book if he had an extra attack or two. I like the guy and he is tough to kill but doesn't really have the damage output.

Boar

Zweischneid wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Fine then, if we're ignoring game durations and the impossibility of any one model to get into CC with Ghaz in turn 1: Saint Celestine and Thawn wins.


Do I get a cookie?

We don't have to. You claimed Ghaz was unbeatable in a 1vs1 and he isn't. Simples.

Wanna look at a larger game.. sure. His Waagh becomes a truck-load more useful as I've freely acknowledge, but so do other HQs different abilities. To name but one example.. Ultramarines with Calgar ignoring/avoiding the Ghaz Waagh, feeding him token squads or tarpit-TH/SS-Termies to waste/tide-over the Waaagh, using (Calgar-boosed) combat tactics to drop out again from CC and kite him along with AP2 bolters. And how would you "value" more supportive abilities of HQ such as Farseers, GK Grand Masters or, as a matter of fact, the non-personal advantages of Ghaz's Waagh to an Ork army?

It sure is a more interesting topic to discuss. I sure didn't raise the 1-vs-1 schtick to distract from it.

Fine, if they start in CC round 1 Ghazghkull loses. If it's turn two onwards, he stands a pretty good chance of winning.

Khan, Outflankng with an entire army? Hmm, sounds fun
And the powers he gives to a squad?
Hit and run combined with furious assualt on CC termnators with khan leading them.
Also a roll of 6 gets you instant death?
Yes please.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Fine, if they start in CC round 1 Ghazghkull loses. If it's turn two onwards, he stands a pretty good chance of winning; unless he already blew his once-a-game-trick-pony-already-and-his-waagh!-is-spent

Seriously, it's not that hard to entice Ghaz into giving away the Waagh!. Unload a bunch of plasma, and it's Waagh! or roasted-Ghaz. After that, Ghaz -1 Waagh! It's a powerful ability no doubt, but it is balanced by, wait for it, being extremely predictable and extremely easy to counter and negate by any player with half a brain.

Zweischneid wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Fine, if they start in CC round 1 Ghazghkull loses. If it's turn two onwards, he stands a pretty good chance of winning; unless he already blew his once-a-game-trick-pony-already-and-his-waagh!-is-spent

Seriously, it's not that hard to entice Ghaz into giving away the Waagh!. Unload a bunch of plasma, and it's Waagh! or roasted-Ghaz. After that, Ghaz -1 Waagh! It's a powerful ability no doubt, but it is balanced by, wait for it, being extremely predictable and extremely easy to counter and negate by any player with half a brain.

Because you are really going to get 'a load of plasma' in a 1hq v 1hq battle (i'm ingoring the 1 troops and transport).

Do you honestly believe that a good Ork player is just going to waste Ghazzy's waaagh!

A Shas'O battlesuit plus bodyguards with some good kitting can outrun most HQ's and give em quite a headache, draigo can try all he wants?!


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Though ghazkulls waagh can kill it easily so he gets my vote, cheerful nutjob

Why does Marneus Calgar always get overlooked? Twin PF, TDA and Iron Halo, super Storm Bolter, take three squads of Honour Guard, back him up with one of them. The GoW special rule too? He's a machine on the field.

Sir Samuel Buca wrote:Why does Marneus Calgar always get overlooked? Twin PF, TDA and Iron Halo, super Storm Bolter, take three squads of Honour Guard, back him up with one of them. The GoW special rule too? He's a machine on the field.

Because Darnath Lysander beats his face.

Edit for spelling.

I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned (arguably) the most powerful 1-on-1 model in the game. The Keeper of Secrets is pretty much unbeatable, especially for his points.

WS 8, Initiative 10, 6 attacks base, hit and run, defensive grenades and -1 attack for any enemy (so your HQ has 2 less attacks on the charge), Fleet, 4++, Eternal Warrior, monstrous creature, Str 7, toughness 6, 4 wounds.

This is assuming you give it several upgrades, but even with the upgrades it only comes to 245 points - the average cost of most of the heavy hitters. There are really only two things that can come close - Draigo (mostly because of his initiative 1 grenades) and Ghaz after a Waaagh (and even then, Ghaz can't kill the Keeper of Secrets in those two turns).

Cept swarmlord makes your ws 1, has ablative wounds, etc so Idk thatd be a good fight there. lol

Henners91 wrote:Farseer.

Nice cheap choice with a lot of utility for helping your troops/keeping them alive.

A 'killy' HQ is only good in his immediate area; they're very localised. A support-orientated choice will always have the maximum utility, imo and project their influence further on the field.

Take a unit like Draigo - dead killy but ultimately a huge point sink who's only an influence in his assault.

Ah, but consider the Swarmlord. It's dead killy in assault. Ignores armour saves, forces rerolls on invulnerable saves, causes instant death with every hit, 3+/4++(in assault) saves.

It has abilities that boost chances of reserves showing up, the longest SitW and synapse range in the book (18"), the ability to give any unit within range Furious Charge or Preferred Enemy and still throw out Paroxysm and can let a unit outflank.

This isn't even considering that if you add him to a Tyrant Guard squad, he's basically a buried sergeant due to not being an independant character.

Swarmlord really does cover all the bases. He's killy, a great support unit and is dead hard.

Well Space Marines seem to have the most special characters, DE have some powerful HQs like Lelith Hesperax, and certain other races have amazing HQs too.

However, IMHO my favourite/the most versatile/one of the best HQs in the game would have to be Shas'O r'alai.

for 190 points you just get so much win.

You can use 2x5" blast a turn with rending and ap4, you can use 2x3" blast a turn with no cover save, you can use an assault 2 lascannon, or you can use assault 2 emp grenades, which are better than a lascannon on av 14 and equivalent on av 13. He's too tough to be instant-killed by lascannon, has a 3++, has JSJ, has two marker drones (which are 30 points each if you get them any where else, but free with r'alai) Has defensive grenades, hit-and-run (which, paired with his fairly decent melee stats, means he can "hide" from shooting", and can deepstrike. BONUS! You don't need to put crisis suits in your list.


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Sir Samuel Buca wrote:Why does Marneus Calgar always get overlooked? Twin PF, TDA and Iron Halo, super Storm Bolter, take three squads of Honour Guard, back him up with one of them. The GoW special rule too? He's a machine on the field.

mathammered about a month ago, Lysander wins against him in CC



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Siphen wrote:I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned (arguably) the most powerful 1-on-1 model in the game. The Keeper of Secrets is pretty much unbeatable, especially for his points.

WS 8, Initiative 10, 6 attacks base, hit and run, defensive grenades and -1 attack for any enemy (so your HQ has 2 less attacks on the charge), Fleet, 4++, Eternal Warrior, monstrous creature, Str 7, toughness 6, 4 wounds.

This is assuming you give it several upgrades, but even with the upgrades it only comes to 245 points - the average cost of most of the heavy hitters. There are really only two things that can come close - Draigo (mostly because of his initiative 1 grenades) and Ghaz after a Waaagh (and even then, Ghaz can't kill the Keeper of Secrets in those two turns).

Lysander could take a KoS, though it'd probably depend on who gets the charge.

Also, Bloodthirsters are better in CC, it is only I and Hit and Run that are in the favour of KoS.

Uriah Jacobs.

90 pts of pure awesome.

The reroll faith die alone pays for its self.

+1a and fnp. Icing on the cake. But in a one on one till one model fully dies would be st celestine.

Or. Necron overlord with war scythe and mss and 2+3++ res orb and why not a phaclectry.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, but a LOT of people here seem to be missing the OP's point. This isn't a thread about "best HQ in general", it's "best HQ in a one-on-one fight".

The fact that ghaz gives waaugh, and that guard advisers give meta buffs doesn't mean much here.

A good poster sees past the OP's poor phrasing.
If you want to know who'd win in a one-on-one fight just do loads of maths.
But things like SM's army-wide thingies, IG orders, Farseers spells, they add value in a way that other leaders don't.
Take Mephiston. Yeah he's overpowered but still. He can wreck everything in sight with ease, but can he make weapons twin-linked? Can he give you re-rolls to wound against an enemy squad? Can he make a 50 man blob squad Ld10?
1on1 is overly simplistic and pointless.

JeneralJoe117 wrote:If this doesn't count special characters, I'll always maintain either Space Marine Captains, who for around 120 get a storm bolter, LC, Power Armour, 4+ invul as standard, and a good WS/BS. Cheap as chips. Or Warbosses, absurd strength with a relatively cheap PK, tough, and can WAAAAGH to make da boyz better.

Well for 120 I can get a Shas'el crisis suit commander with a CIB+PR+HWMT+TA+Shield drone, with 5 points left over,

The new Necron royal court.
1 Because it can get to stupid sizes
2. It can be dispersed among the army
3. The cryptek ability's
4. Mindshackle scarab blob

im2randomghgh wrote:Lysander could take a KoS, though it'd probably depend on who gets the charge.

Also, Bloodthirsters are better in CC, it is only I and Hit and Run that are in the favour of KoS.

Don't forget a KoS has 6 attacks (7 attacks every other turn) to the Bloodthirster's 4 attacks (defensive grenades and Aura). He's also 50 pts cheaper, although I think it's closer after upgrades (although even then, he's still cheaper).

I don't think Lysander would stand a chance against a KoS. Keeper strikes first with 6-7 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. And Lysander would have a pathetic 2 attacks, even on the charge. Not to mention hitting on 4's (with one reroll, but still...).

To top everything off, due to his high number of attacks, the KoS has a higher damage potential than nearly anything else, even if the average is only slightly above a Bloodthirster.