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Ovion wrote:Instead of rolling dice next time, you could try this:
http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php


TBH, most of the assasins when I've come across them have caused me to pause and go 'wait.. what?'.
But it's never really been a paricular issue for me.
With my Tau it fell over to plasma rifles, with Dark Eldar... well, poison weapons / lances.
They've tended to wipe out 1-2 things, but then fall over.

O come now dear sir, I just used a online dice roller, I'm sad, but not THAT sad.

Fair enough, but that should still help in future ^-^

Ovion wrote:Fair enough, but that should still help in future ^-^

Thanks, it's now bookmarked. Back on topic yes I could have put in a Eradicator or a Hellhound but when you are putting in units to counter a single model on the off-chance it's deployed something is wrong...

I think the real problem is that because most of the anti-heavy infantry (i.e. Termies as troop choices) weapons (Battle and Plasma cannons) are mounted on tanks or sentinels, which understandably eat up points. Now yes I can put in some 3 Plasma gun Vets but their range is a mere 24" and unless they're Grenadiers you're not going to survive long in shooting. (Storm Troopers could be useful but I've never used them since Vets seem a better deal)

I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".

DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".

Yes, but my Leman Russ doesn't infiltrate (unless I Creed it).

Mr. Ward made sure his god-knights had a can opener for every situation. They are the swiss cheese army knife of 40k.

Their job is to sell miniatures, not make fair rules or a balanced game. I hear grey knights are selling pretty well....

i also see alot of people selling there GK army...everyone is complaining about the GK, have you seen there old Codex, ignoring INV saves, Force Weapons that could kill regardless of EW. Justicars that could hit with S10 at I5. Storm Bolters counted at an extra weapon in CC if not charging, WS5, S6 for every unit with a NFW. The same assassin but could kill a unit in CC. Storm bolters that could fire AP3. and every GK had a permanent shrouding that you had to roll 3d6x3 and that was as far as you could see them. Psycannons and Incinerators would both ing INV saves. Trust me we got nerffed, but it made GK more playable, you just have to change your game plan and outsmart them.

DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".

ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.

also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?

kb305 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".

ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.

also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?

for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.

High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.

Why is everyone blaming ward for this? They had the Turbo-Penetrator Round before! It used to be 3D6 though, and they really weren't worth the cost back than at all.

DK wrote:i also see alot of people selling there GK army...everyone is complaining about the GK, have you seen there old Codex, ignoring INV saves, Force Weapons that could kill regardless of EW. Justicars that could hit with S10 at I5. Storm Bolters counted at an extra weapon in CC if not charging, WS5, S6 for every unit with a NFW. The same assassin but could kill a unit in CC. Storm bolters that could fire AP3. and every GK had a permanent shrouding that you had to roll 3d6x3 and that was as far as you could see them. Psycannons and Incinerators would both ing INV saves. Trust me we got nerffed, but it made GK more playable, you just have to change your game plan and outsmart them.

Well I could have taken a Hellhound but frankly what one needs against an GK army are AP 3 and 2 weapons, not flamers. I don't really use Basalisks (I prefer the more accurate Griffon to clear mobs and use the spare points for other things) but the problem with them is the minimum range makes them vulnerable to deep strike units (which GK have quite a few).

Because destroying a main battle tank by sniping is stupid?

amanita wrote:Because destroying a main battle tank by sniping is stupid?

Lets not even go there...
There are lots of stupid things in 40k...
This isn't even near the top of the list...

amanita wrote:Because destroying a main battle tank by sniping is stupid?

Well in a 40K RPG where the fluff is heavy then yes, but on the tabletop stuff like that needs to come a tad more of a premium...

DK wrote:

kb305 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".

ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.

also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?

for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.

High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.

in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..

sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.

Well in a 40K RPG where the fluff is heavy then yes (in fact I'm playing a Vindicare-in-training at the moment), but on the tabletop stuff like that needs to come a tad more of a premium...

I won't say that 4d6 Armour pen is Game-breaking but it is one of those moments when you are simply lost for words when a 5th of your points goes down the plughole on your first turn...

kb305 wrote:

DK wrote:

kb305 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".

ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.

also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?

for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.

High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.

in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..

sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.

It's hardly 'horribly unbalanced'...
He is a glass cannon.
Hits hard but is easy to kill.
We had a thread recently claiming the Vindicare was rubbish and shouldn't be used...

kb305 wrote:
in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..

sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.

Well chain axes used to have a spiffy rule where they reduced any armor save to a 4+ at best. So berzerkers used to be the gak with them even against terminators. The fluff matched the old rules, but they were nerfed like just about everyything else in the chaos dex.

kb305 wrote:

DK wrote:

kb305 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".

ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.

also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?

for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.

High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.

in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..

sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.

Very true, but in the end thats why he is the way he is, you can only take one no matter how many pts you play, and if he makes the whole game in the law of avg he will only make 5 shots in a 6 round game, if you know your opt is takeing one take the deployment steps to work agenst him...deploy dawn of war or use Marbo if your IG, thats always a big feth you to anyone you play vs...but i dont bitch about a guy that can throw a det charge and not scatter in the same turn. you know how they fixed that prob, Warp Quake.

DK wrote:

kb305 wrote:

DK wrote:

kb305 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".

ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.

also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?

for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.

High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.

in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..

sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.

Very true, but in the end thats why he is the way he is, you can only take one no matter how many pts you play, and if he makes the whole game in the law of avg he will only make 5 shots in a 6 round game, if you know your opt is takeing one take the deployment steps to work agenst him...deploy dawn of war or use Marbo if your IG, thats always a big feth you to anyone you play vs...but i dont bitch about a guy that can throw a det charge and not scatter in the same turn. you know how they fixed that prob, Warp Quake.

Actually it does scatter, just not too much, but still enough to kill Marbo the one time I used him. Not to mention that it's practically giving a killpoint to your enemy, something Guard are already prone to.

DK wrote:

for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO

.100 equates to a TENTH of an inch. 0.75cal = 3/4 inch (19 or so mm).
1.00 calibre would be 1 inch.

And it's SABOT. French for "shoe". Usually used in an APFSDS round (aka 'alphabet' round).

He has a 3+ COVER save. Plenty of things in the IG arsenal ignore cover. He kills 1 tank a turn. He can be insta-killed by just about any failed save from ordnance.
Hellhounds kill them well. No cover AND they wound on 2+.

One question... where are people getting this 'cover save only' idea?

My book states that all Assassins have 4+ Invulnerable saves, so even if something does ignore cover, he still has a 4+ invul...

I dislike Vindicares because they are the closest thing 40K has to a sure thing. Way higher BS than Telion, better WS than Marneus Calgar, a 3+ save that is quite hard to ignore.

He'll pretty much always hit. In the case of vehicles, you always start with the best result possible: a penetrating hit with a +1 on the damage table.

In the case of infantry, you get to remove Storm shields, iron halos, chaos icons and lots of other fun stuff. Talk about a jack-of-all-trades, master of all.

Not all armies have the means to get to the Vindicare quickly or ID him from range. Orks, necrons, many Nid lists, Salamanders. GKs may be short on Missle launchers and meltaguns, but they sure have Psyriflemen for long range, psycannons with an amazing volume of fire of 30" or less and a S10 monstrous creature if they need to open vehicles from up close.

chromedog wrote:

DK wrote:

for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO

.100 equates to a TENTH of an inch. 0.75cal = 3/4 inch (19 or so mm).
1.00 calibre would be 1 inch.

And it's SABOT. French for "shoe". Usually used in an APFSDS round (aka 'alphabet' round).

He has a 3+ COVER save. Plenty of things in the IG arsenal ignore cover. He kills 1 tank a turn. He can be insta-killed by just about any failed save from ordnance.
Hellhounds kill them well. No cover AND they wound on 2+.

and a 4+ INVULN save. even if you ignore cover, he still gets a very decent saving throw.

He is really good at everything he does, but, honestly, does he really do a whole lot of damage that a reasonable player can't mitigate.


Lets take orks for example and assume the Vindicare never fails to kill what he's shooting at.

Turn 1: He snipes a Battlewagon and now the 20 boyz inside have to walk.

Turn 2: He kills a Mob's PK Nob(only wounds on 4+ though)

Turn 3: He kills another Nob.

Turn 4: O gosh he's in combat. 30 boyz beat the out of him, he takes a couple out with him.



So in the game he killed a Battlewagon, 2 Nobs, and a couple of Boyz. 145 points for that seems fair.

Avatar 720 wrote:One question... where are people getting this 'cover save only' idea?

My book states that all Assassins have 4+ Invulnerable saves, so even if something does ignore cover, he still has a 4+ invul...

yeah, helluva lot worse then 3+ though.

Grey Templar wrote:
Turn 4: O gosh he's in combat. 30 boyz beat the out of him, he takes a couple out with him.

That's not very likely. He's got 4 attacks and no power weapon.

Grey Templar wrote:He is really good at everything he does, but, honestly, does he really do a whole lot of damage that a reasonable player can't mitigate.


Lets take orks for example and assume the Vindicare never fails to kill what he's shooting at.

Turn 1: He snipes a Battlewagon and now the 20 boyz inside have to walk.

Turn 2: He kills a Mob's PK Nob(only wounds on 4+ though)

Turn 3: He kills another Nob.

Turn 4: O gosh he's in combat. 30 boyz beat the out of him, he takes a couple out with him.



So in the game he killed a Battlewagon, 2 Nobs, and a couple of Boyz. 145 points for that seems fair.

Avatar 720 wrote:One question... where are people getting this 'cover save only' idea?

My book states that all Assassins have 4+ Invulnerable saves, so even if something does ignore cover, he still has a 4+ invul...

yeah, helluva lot worse then 3+ though.

wth... what is the point of that little scenario you posted???

i can do that too.

turn 1: blows up a land raider
turn 2: blows up a land raider
turn 3: blows up a dread
turn 4: blows up a dread

....

Taking the roll needed to hit and the penetration roll into consideration its really only about a 25% chance to actually KILL a Landraider(or any other AV14 vehicle)

Far better then any other anti-tank in the game but hardly a sure thing.


Your example has a relativly poor chance of happening. The way the dice are set up he would actually need 4 turns to be garunteed of a LR kill, statistically speaking. Yeah, he can pop one a turn(with a decent chance of doing so) but the % have that as the less likely result.

I dislike Vindicares because they are the closest thing 40K has to a sure thing. Way higher BS than Telion, better WS than Marneus Calgar, a 3+ save that is quite hard to ignore.

Because a chemically saturated, super soldier trained JUST to shoot, just to snipe, and armed with only technology used for sniping, trained by a temple DEDICATED TO SNIPING, would be the best sniper in the Imperium, who knew! The dude doesn't even think for himself nowadays, he's so chemically saturated that he doesn't even remember he has a life outside of killing. Also, Telion shouldn't have been such a glorious sniper to begin with, being just a scout sniper trainer, and Calgar, dedicated as he is to fighting, isn't so chemically and reflexively trained to the point that he can react to combat far better than him.

He'll pretty much always hit. In the case of vehicles, you always start with the best result possible: a penetrating hit with a +1 on the damage table.

He better, he's more expensive than a sniper scout team and only gets one shot a turn, and unique, if he's not doing something per turn he's not exactly worthwhile.

In the case of infantry, you get to remove Storm shields, iron halos, chaos icons and lots of other fun stuff. Talk about a jack-of-all-trades, master of all.

One Shot a Turn, and he has to penetrate first.

Grey Templar wrote:Taking the roll needed to hit and the penetration roll into consideration its really only about a 25% chance to actually KILL a Landraider(or any other AV14 vehicle)

Far better then any other anti-tank in the game but hardly a sure thing.


Your example has a relativly poor chance of happening. The way the dice are set up he would actually need 4 turns to be garunteed of a LR kill, statistically speaking. Yeah, he can pop one a turn(with a decent chance of doing so) but the % have that as the less likely result.

I think it's a bit closer to 33%, if you're assuming the rifle gets S3+4D6 (I'll actually play it as just flat 4D6 if my opponent is more familiar with that interpretation, but I digress). With a 2+/4+ reroll to hit, that's a 91.7% chance to hit, 76.1% chance to roll 15+ on 3+4D6, and then a 50% chance to roll a 4+ to destroy the vehicle (since the rifle is AP1). Although I didn't include rending in my analysis.

Still, it's pretty fair to say that while the Vindicare may be frustratingly binary (often either complete success or complete failure), it's certainly not a one-man army stopper.