Vindicare Assasins Need To Be Nerfed

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**DeathReaper**

kb305 wrote:also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?

Looks like 18 Lasguns in rapidfire range, or 36 at long range. (Less if you have FRFSRF)
Shots: 36
Hit Chance: 50%
Hits: 18
Wound Chance: 33.33%
Wounds: 6
Saved Wounds: 4
Unsaved Wounds: 2
Models Killed: 1
Options:
Hit On 4, Wound On 5Wounds:Chance
0 : 12.775%
1 : 27.052%
2 : 27.848%
3 : 18.565%
4 : 9.01%
5 : 3.392%
6 : 1.031%
7 : 0.26%
8 : 0.055%
9 : 0.01%
10 : 0.002%
Defender Group
Hits: 18
Wounds: 6
Saves: 4
Wounds Lost: 2
Models Lost: 1 / 1 (100%)
Chance to fallback: 8.33%

**AlmightyWalrus**

DeathReaper wrote:
kb305 wrote:also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?

Looks like 18 Lasguns in rapidfire range, or 36 at long range. (Less if you have FRFSRF)
Shots: 36
Hit Chance: 50%
Hits: 18
Wound Chance: 33.33%
Wounds: 6
Saved Wounds: 4
Unsaved Wounds: 2
Models Killed: 1
Options:
Hit On 4, Wound On 5Wounds:Chance
0 : 12.775%
1 : 27.052%
2 : 27.848%
3 : 18.565%
4 : 9.01%
5 : 3.392%
6 : 1.031%
7 : 0.26%
8 : 0.055%
9 : 0.01%
10 : 0.002%
Defender Group
Hits: 18
Wounds: 6
Saves: 4
Wounds Lost: 2
Models Lost: 1 / 1 (100%)
Chance to fallback: 8.33%

He's got a 6+ FNP, so you'd need 42 shots.

**DeathReaper**

That's right, missed FNP.

For Meltavets here are the numbers:

First number is number of meltavets, second number is the % of models lost.

1 - 13.9%
2 - 27.8%
3 - 41.7%
4 - 55.6%
5 - 64.9%
6 - 83.3%
7 - 97.2%
8 - 111.1%

So 3 meltavets almost a 50/50 chance, 6 meltavets 83.3% chance.

a lot easier to manage 6 melta shots instead of the lasgun shots.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Did you factor in instant death? It only takes 1 melta wound to kill him.

**sudojoe**

frankly the last 3 games I had with the vindicare I mised 2 shots each game and he died to a single failed las cannon shot that finally went to him since the IG ran out of dreads to kill.

The never miss thing is no match for my ability to roll double 1's.

**Sarigar**

He's an interesting beast. I've come across him where he sat in a ruin that was Bolstered by a Techmarine. Basically, he ended up with a 2+ cover save and at range so getting to him was not a viable option; just take it and try to win the objectives.

Locally, ruins are pretty much on every table, so the Techmarine/Vindicare combo was pretty effective.

I won't say broken, but I'm not a big fan of various portions of the Grey Knights codex.

**Experiment 626**

DK wrote:i also see alot of people selling there GK army...everyone is complaining about the GK, have you seen there old Codex, ignoring INV saves, Force Weapons that could kill regardless of EW. Justicars that could hit with S10 at I5. Storm Bolters counted at an extra weapon in CC if not charging, WS5, S6 for every unit with a NFW. The same assassin but could kill a unit in CC. Storm bolters that could fire AP3. and every GK had a permanent shrouding that you had to roll 3d6x3 and that was as far as you could see them. Psycannons and Incinerators would both ing INV saves. Trust me we got nerffed, but it made GK more playable, you just have to change your game plan and outsmart them.

Wow. You sir win the award for most foolish statement of the year. Grey Knights nerfed?!

My Daemons would happily face the old Daemonhunters honestly. At least I get to put models on the table and not auto-lose because I lost 1 dice roll.

**Sephyr**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Because a chemically saturated, super soldier trained JUST to shoot, just to snipe, and armed with only technology used for sniping, trained by a temple DEDICATED TO SNIPING, would be the best sniper in the Imperium, who knew! The dude doesn't even think for himself nowadays, he's so chemically saturated that he doesn't even remember he has a life outside of killing. Also, Telion shouldn't have been such a glorious sniper to begin with, being just a scout sniper trainer, and Calgar, dedicated as he is to fighting, isn't so chemically and reflexively trained to the point that he can react to combat far better than him.

Given his WS of 8, he wasn't trained just to shoot. In fact, he was better trained in melee than both Mephiston and Logan Grimnar.

And even if it was, it's still askew. Several space marines, chaos marines, Eldar and Necrons have been doing their gigs for centuries, if not millenia. Telion has likely pulled his trigger more times than the average Vindicare has taken breaths in his lifetime. Just saying that the Vindicare does the Dragon Ball Z thing and trains really, -really- hard doesn't work.

As for the 'one shot a turn' thing, it's a non-issue. Hammerheads with railguns also get a single shot each turn and no one says that makes them bad. (Also, Vindicares are -far- better at killing stuff than hammerheads, and harder to shut down, too). The balance here would be that you can (kinda) spam hammerheads. But as I said, GK's actually get very decent ranged support via psyriflemen (you can get 6 if you really care) and 30" range psycannons with rending and S7. Even if you could not, it's not really that hard to protect your vindicare so that he's shooting at least 3-4 turns instead of getting locked in melee.

**Corny**

I have a grey knight army and I have an imperial guard army, (Same color scheme, looks really cool on the display board) Their both top tier list, their both great books. Blood Angels, Wolves, Necrons and Dark Eldar are also great books. The vindicare assassin is a good unit, not even a great unit, a good unit. He fired at a russ and blew it up, that russ could have fire at him, insta-killing him in one shot. That russ could have done so from 72" away far out of the assassins range, and then began blowing 250 point squads of grey knights off the table. For 130 points you could have brought a valk to the table, scout moving out of LOS and/or range of the assassin and then pelted him with insta-killing lascannon fire.

Here's a question. At 1000 points how do you want a grey knight player to deal with two Russes, (AV 14, 72" range, S8 AP3)? Drive or walk across the board getting pounded by guard heavy weapons + two battle cannons in order to get his psycannons in range?

Cry because dark eldar have a dark lance stapped to every possible weapons mount in their army, not because grey knights have a 0-1, 36" range, tank killer. And neither fact makes either army broken.

**Exergy**

The Vindicare is indeed a little over the edge but for the GK book its about par for the course.

Play more dawn of war so he has to walk onto the board, then run into cover and get shot before he can do anyhting.

**Corny**

I believe infiltrators still get to setup as normal in DOW. And I really don't think guard players have any right to complain about knights.....

**Stormcrow**

The fac that very few, if any, GK tournament lists have these is a good indication of their usefulness. They are an easy target and take up a slot you can dedicate to Vendreads or techmarines. Mine have died quickly and painfully in most games I field them, and underperform when they are left alone. They are best against an IG or BA mech player, and the OP happens to be the former.

**Throatpunch**

Seems like whining to me, though using 2 was definitely cheating.

**Grey Templar**

Stormcrow wrote:The fac that very few, if any, GK tournament lists have these is a good indication of their usefulness. They are an easy target and take up a slot you can dedicate to Vendreads or techmarines. Mine have died quickly and painfully in most games I field them, and underperform when they are left alone. They are best against an IG or BA mech player, and the OP happens to be the former.

They don't feature in Henchmen lists or Draigowing very much.

But they are a staple, IMO, of Purifier lists and complement them very well. Especially when paired with Psyflemen.

**rigeld2**

Corny wrote:I believe infiltrators still get to setup as normal in DOW. And I really don't think guard players have any right to complain about knights.....

Infiltrators can infiltrate if they're part of the HQ/2 Troop restriction on DoW.

BRB page 93 wrote:Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate, can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table. Lastly, players make any scout moves.

DK

Experiment 626 wrote:
DK wrote:i also see alot of people selling there GK army...everyone is complaining about the GK, have you seen there old Codex, ignoring INV saves, Force Weapons that could kill regardless of EW. Justicars that could hit with S10 at I5. Storm Bolters counted at an extra weapon in CC if not charging, WS5, S6 for every unit with a NFW. The same assassin but could kill a unit in CC. Storm bolters that could fire AP3. and every GK had a permanent shrouding that you had to roll 3d6x3 and that was as far as you could see them. Psycannons and Incinerators would both ing INV saves. Trust me we got nerffed, but it made GK more playable, you just have to change your game plan and outsmart them.

Wow. You sir win the award for most foolish statement of the year. Grey Knights nerfed?!

My Daemons would happily face the old Daemonhunters honestly. At least I get to put models on the table and not auto-lose because I lost 1 dice roll.

You must be crazy, i would take 2 inquisitors and take two psy ability's, one would make every daemon take a Ld test -2 every turn, everyone that failed is gone, the second would make the daemons lose every gift for a turn. and your bitching about warp quake...You must have never played the DH codex army with the FAQ just before they changed to the new codex.

**DeathReaper**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Did you factor in instant death? It only takes 1 melta wound to kill him.

Yes Instant death was factored in, the percentages are the % of models lost, not % to lose a wound.

**Deadnight**

So we're complaining about what amounts one of the galaxy's greatest snipers being able to kill a tank, with a perfect shot? I dunno, that seems like the kind of thing that a vindicare could conceivably do, to be honest.

What amuses me amongst 40k players always is the cries of "it killed me! NERF IT!!! NERF IT!!! NERF IT!!!" Not being cheeky, but you have two choices. One is to play with kid gloves. the other, and my perference, is to kill him. Seriously, just kill him. problem solved. he's 150 odd points. its worth the investment to take him out.... and then you've got the gloating rights...

**DarknessEternal**

Grey Templar wrote:Taking the roll needed to hit and the penetration roll into consideration its really only about a 25% chance to actually KILL a Landraider(or any other AV14 vehicle)
...
The way the dice are set up he would actually need 4 turns to be garunteed of a LR kill, statistically speaking.

That isn't how probability works.

If he had a 25% chance of killing a Land Raider each turn, he'd have a 68% chance of killing at least one Land Raider in 4 turns.

**Vaktathi**

fattoler wrote:Recently I faced a Grey Knight army with a Vindicare against my Imperial Guard. On the first turn it fired what is referred to as a 'Turbo-Penatrator' (ding-dong) which rolls 4d6 against armour. I called cheating and was shown the rulebook, and yes, that is possible, unsurprisingly the shot penetrated and because the rifle is AP1 the Leman Russ exploded.

Now I'm not unfamiliar with defeat, in fact I'm accustomed to it. However this was different, whilst I know a Russ isn't invulnerable it usually takes very good luck to bring one down. This Vindicator however struck such a strong chord of unrelenting broken-ness that I had to investigate further by seeing how likely it is for one to kill a tank with 14 Armour in one shot.

I found out that the basic Vindicare Assassin is 145 Pts and comes with all the trimmings. A comparable Imperial guard Tank-Killer is the Leman Russ Vanquisher, which rolls 2D6 plus 8 to penetrate, which is 155 not including upgrades such as Pask, Sponsons, Dozer-Blade etc.

For both units I rolled 150 D6s to hit, 150 2D6/4D6s (L.R.V/Ass.) to penetrate, and 150 D6s to see the result of a penetration. The results were as follows: A Vindicare has a 92% chance to hit, a L.R.V. 50%. A Vindicare has a 48% chance to Penetrate, a 13% chance to glance, and a 39% chance to do nothing, whilst the L.R.V. has a 59% chance to penetrate, 10% chance to glance, and 31% chance to not do anything. Finally a Vindicare has a 50% chance to wreak whilst the L.R.V. has a 33% chance (of course a Vindicare can also wreak on a glancing hit due to the AP1).

After number crunching I came to the conclusion that a Vindicare has a 63% chance to hit, penetrate and destroy a armour 14 tank (the percentage does not account the potential glancing hit wreckages caused by the AP1 rule), whereas a Leman Russ Vanquisher has a 48% chance to do the same. Did I mention that a Vindicare gets Fearless, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move Though Cover, Stealth, Lightning Reflexes, 4 attacks, WS 8, Ld 10, and 2 wounds? As well as being able to fire rounds which ignore invulnerable saves and is allowed to allocate wounds to their liking? All for 10 points less than a Vanilla Vanquisher?

Yes I know my experiment isn't at the apex of scientific method and yes I am aware that 'Grey Knights Are Broken' has been discussed for a while but this I feel is yet another example of why Matt Ward is a chugging idiot.

Keep in mind the Vanquisher is pretty much universally acknowledged to be an overpriced junker, it does not make a good comparison.

That said, the vindicare isn't that hard to deal with, and takes an Elites slot all by himself. Is it kinda silly to have a super sniper gun penetrating heavy tanks through the front with relative frequency? Sure, but the Vindicare's utility if often somewhat limited, and if you're not giving him heavy battle tanks to shoot at, then he's relatively wasted in that role.

**ZebioLizard2**

Sephyr wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Because a chemically saturated, super soldier trained JUST to shoot, just to snipe, and armed with only technology used for sniping, trained by a temple DEDICATED TO SNIPING, would be the best sniper in the Imperium, who knew! The dude doesn't even think for himself nowadays, he's so chemically saturated that he doesn't even remember he has a life outside of killing. Also, Telion shouldn't have been such a glorious sniper to begin with, being just a scout sniper trainer, and Calgar, dedicated as he is to fighting, isn't so chemically and reflexively trained to the point that he can react to combat far better than him.

Given his WS of 8, he wasn't trained just to shoot. In fact, he was better trained in melee than both Mephiston and Logan Grimnar.

And even if it was, it's still askew. Several space marines, chaos marines, Eldar and Necrons have been doing their gigs for centuries, if not millenia. Telion has likely pulled his trigger more times than the average Vindicare has taken breaths in his lifetime. Just saying that the Vindicare does the Dragon Ball Z thing and trains really, -really- hard doesn't work.

The funny thing is, they aren't depending fully upon training, at all. They are Chemically filled to the brim with out and out chemicals that saturate their muscles, and go through it many times over, which could be compared to space marines. Not to mention they are given VAST amounts of wargear, combat drugs, and various linked subsystems within their heads to enhance their bodies until they are at the point where they are the perfect killing machines, not to mention the various implants, cybernetics, and other mechanical advantages.

The things you are saying about the Space Marines is pretty much akin to "He has fought longer! So thus he should be better" Well there's only a point where battle experience can kick in, as proven by Tycho and Lysander. And a few older marines, being worse than the Gray Knight Champions and Draigo. The problem is most of the stuff used to be given to the temples isn't represented by wargear or special rules anymore, so you don't really know what all the powerful, special gear they get from their Officio Assassinorum anymore.

Mostly it's also because an abstract of rules. Otherwise we'd have blood-letters and other various daemons being the true strongest things in the universe since all they do is kill, train, murder, and should logically be up there with space marine Chapter masters, rather than just WS5

**Grey Templar**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Taking the roll needed to hit and the penetration roll into consideration its really only about a 25% chance to actually KILL a Landraider(or any other AV14 vehicle)
...
The way the dice are set up he would actually need 4 turns to be garunteed of a LR kill, statistically speaking.

That isn't how probability works.

If he had a 25% chance of killing a Land Raider each turn, he'd have a 68% chance of killing at least one Land Raider in 4 turns.

I know that but I'm not sure how to do the exact math.

I honestly would have though it would be higher.

**dnanoodle**

sudojoe wrote:frankly the last 3 games I had with the vindicare I mised 2 shots each game and he died to a single failed las cannon shot that finally went to him since the IG ran out of dreads to kill.

The never miss thing is no match for my ability to roll double 1's.

Oh my god, this. I don't know how I miss so often with mine.

To the OT, the Vindicare is not that big a deal. 6 S8 shots at BS3 will kill him in his 3+ cover.

Having such a good chance to pen doesn't guarantee a kill. It's 50% from there and then maybe another 50% if the target has cover. Considering that he has to choose between moving and firing, it's pretty easy to out-maneuver his LOS to get that save. And his range for that matter, as the aforementioned 6 missiles out-range him by a whole foot.

**AnomanderRake**

My efforts to solve the problem of the probability of a Vindicare Assassin penetrating a Land Raider's armor have met with little success; not factoring Rending in produces a result of 76%. Based on that number, a Vindicare Assassin should have around a 34% chance of destroying an AV 14 vehicle in one shot. Now consider: six Fire Dragons with an Exarch using both Exarch powers have an 85% chance of killing an AV 14 tank in one turn of shooting, and are 128pts versus 145 for the Assassin. Two double-multi-melta Land Speeders will down an AV 14 vehicle 58% of the time at 140pts. Anti-tank units are pretty damned good at killing tanks that you paid much more for than the anti-tank unit, regardless of the army or how much you feel like calling 'cheese!' on them.

**kb305**

youre not factoring in range or survivability. those landspeeders need to be within 12 inchs to do jack, the vindicare can do it from three feet away. they can also be glanced by bolter fire. those speeders dont have a 4+ invuln, 2 wounds and they cant hide - theyre big targets. i could go on but you get the point.

and ya factoring in the rends the vindicars chance to pen is probably in the mid to high 80s.

even if he doesnt outright destroy said landraider, he's almost guaranteed to do something really horrible to it.

thinking about it, if the points were equal, i would still take a vindicare over four of those melta speeders. use a techmarine to bolster his hiding spot. that would be a very annoying combo. you would basically need to alter your list specifically with stuff that ignores cover to even beable to deal with him

**sudojoe**

actually from a GK player's standpoint, I'd rather take the speeders if they were available in the codex. I find them to be far superior as I can do alot of contesting/flat out cover save when needed, and deploy alot of damage with the tempest versions. Missle spam has it's uses. Vindicare relies on your enemy to get into the right position. Speeders can get to where I want them. It's a different style of play. And yes, while you can glance speeders with bolters, you can also kill the vindicare with said bolters too. I can maybe kill one guy in your bolter blob and you probably wlll manuver to get cover anyway but my MM/HF speeder can melt alot of bolters for similar chance to get burned down on the subsequent turn from bolters.

Also, my fast attack slots are often open, my elite slots get filled fast, it's an easy choice given my play perference.

**Talon31**

Anything strength 8 or higher can instant kill a vindicare. For example I have lost one in my opponents first turn - lascannon shot to the face. And they are opne of the few shooty tank killers

**Necro**

The Vindicare is really good but not broken.

In the two GK builds I run, I dont have any assasins.

I just wish that they had made the other 3 assasins better.

If you run an assasin there is only one choice.

I would love to run an eversor but with his rules he is pure fail

**nosferatu1001**

For killing vehicles, a 135 point psyrifleman is far, far better at anything up to Av14 than a singe vindicare.

**sudojoe**

nosferatu1001 wrote:For killing vehicles, a 135 point psyrifleman is far, far better at anything up to Av14 than a singe vindicare.

I'm actually not sure they do that well vs AV 13 either. The necron shield walls around the local metas here really start to make the dreads alot less effective. Great at AV 12 or less though.