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So far I've played him a lot and he has failed to do anything useful in some games (instant death) and in others he has been awesome (killing hwt with his double wounders and chimeras) so he seems to be good or rubbish. I think he is fairly priced.
"Do or do not. There is no try"
"Truth is subjective"
Inquisitor Stelios
"Always assume your enemy knows something you do not"
"Fate rarely calls upon us at a moment of our choosing."
Brother-Librarian Sebastion Adonis
so do you think that real life snipers should be nerfed as well? cause they can take out a tank as well. With todays technology we can take out a tank with a single round, you don't think with 10s of thousands of years we won't come up with more awesome ways?
3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
RIP Diz, We will never forget ya brother
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well I don't think anyone is sniping an Abrams but, yeah, things like Strikers can possably get penetrated.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
never heard of them.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Things like the Barret, Steyr and Beowulf .50cal are what is known as Anti-Materiel rifles, specifically designed for penetrating armour. These are the modern versions of what used to be known as Anti-Tank guns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/10 18:29:02
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I don't think Barrets can penetrate any modern MBT's armor. I'd want to see proof that they can do that.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.
High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.
No, that will not melt a tank, and on top of that, that round would be impossible to fire from the shoulder.
Here's some statistics for a contemporary round using roughly the same specifications and composition as the round you're talking about. Here is a hint. This round is not fired from the shoulder because the gun that fires it looks like this in comparison to a Volkswagon Beetle:
Spoiler:
That gatling cannon fires a 30mm depleted uranium core round. That's 1.18 inches in diameter, in other words a larger diameter than your fantasy round. The gun that fires it also weighs 4,000 pounds.
The bullet that gatling cannon fires carries 243,291 Joules of kinetic energy at the muzzle. Sounds like a lot, especially compared to a rifle that actually -can- be fired from the shoulder, for instance, let's take a powerful shoulder fire cartridge like a .50 BMG, which has a mere 18,000 Joules of kinetic energy at the muzzle. The .50 BMG is known as a shoulder busting round, so much so that the version that Barrett produces for the contemporary US military carries a substantial muzzle break and internal mechanisms meant to dampen recoil. In spite of this, the .50 BMG, one of the most powerful shoulder-fired man-portable rifles in use today carries a mere 7% of the kinetic energy that the 30mm round mentioned above carries. In short, assuming you could lift the roughly 2 ton gatling rifle itself, you would now be posed with sustaining the recoil of a single shot from this cannon at 13 times the kinetic energy of a .50 BMG, which you obviously can not do.
That, in spite of the fact that this same weapon pierces a mere 69mm of Rolled Homogenous Steel Armor at 500 meters. Hot tip, tanks carried more armor than that in the 1960s. Today, they have many times more armor than that, it is not homogenous steel, it in fact is a composite mixture including depleted uranium of much greater thickness than RHA.
In fact, a Panther I tank from World War 2 armed with a 75mm KwK42 L/70 was capable of piercing 124mm of RHA at that range. It also carried 6 million Joules of kinetic energy, or roughly 25 times the kinetic energy at the muzzle. And it was installed into the chassis of a 45 metric ton tank, with a double baffled muzzle brake and a recoil system, because otherwise the entire 45 metric ton tank would be recoiled back from the force of the shell being expended. And in spite of all this, a Panther tank would be utterly incapable of piercing even the rear armor of a modern MBT like the M1 Abrams tank.
In a nutshell, it is positively physically impossible for a man-portable, shoulder-fired weapon having enough kinetic energy to pierce the front armor of an MBT. It doesn't make sense. It is fantasy. Such a thing cannot be reasoned into existence or even reasoned about, because it is not even remotely in the realm of possibility. It exists solely in the mind of Matt Ward. Do not try to make sense of it.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
I disagree that a man portable rifle cannot ever penetrate a MBT. A large enough round could use more than kinetic energy - its just not cost efficient to research and develop such a round today.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
rigeld2 wrote:I disagree that a man portable rifle cannot ever penetrate a MBT. A large enough round could use more than kinetic energy - its just not cost efficient to research and develop such a round today.
What magic bananas are you talking about here?
A bullet is simply a solid mass projectile propelled at high velocity by gunpowder and stabilized by rifling grooves in the barrel. They work the same way in tanks as they do in rifles.
If you made the bullet larger, it would expend so much kinetic energy that it would break your shoulder, and it would still not be enough to penetrate an MBT. It is physically impossible. It is part of the laws of physics. If you had a projectile as powerful as the KwK42 L/70 used in the Panther tank, it would both rip your shoulder off and bounce harmlessly off a contemporary MBT.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
rigeld2 wrote:Shaped charge 20mm round, with 38,000 years of technology, I could see it happening.
Kinetic energy is not the only way to penetrate armor.
Okay, I'm sorry, I misread that.
A shaped charge round is not a rifle, and it is not propelled by gunpowder. We call those things HEAT rounds, and they're already in 40k. They're called "Missile Launchers," and they bounce off of AV14 in 40k rules.
Now, I wouldn't disagree with the fluff if the Vindicare Assassin carried a special, advanced HEAT round that was able to pierce the front of an AV14 model, but it says right there in the entry that it's a rifle.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
TedNugent wrote:
DK wrote:
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.
High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.
No, that will not melt a tank, and on top of that, that round would be impossible to fire from the shoulder.
Here's some statistics for a contemporary round using roughly the same specifications and composition as the round you're talking about. Here is a hint. This round is not fired from the shoulder because the gun that fires it looks like this in comparison to a Volkswagon Beetle:
Spoiler:
That gatling cannon fires a 30mm depleted uranium core round. That's 1.18 inches in diameter, in other words a larger diameter than your fantasy round. The gun that fires it also weighs 4,000 pounds.
The bullet that gatling cannon fires carries 243,291 Joules of kinetic energy at the muzzle. Sounds like a lot, especially compared to a rifle that actually -can- be fired from the shoulder, for instance, let's take a powerful shoulder fire cartridge like a .50 BMG, which has a mere 18,000 Joules of kinetic energy at the muzzle. The .50 BMG is known as a shoulder busting round, so much so that the version that Barrett produces for the contemporary US military carries a substantial muzzle break and internal mechanisms meant to dampen recoil. In spite of this, the .50 BMG, one of the most powerful shoulder-fired man-portable rifles in use today carries a mere 7% of the kinetic energy that the 30mm round mentioned above carries. In short, assuming you could lift the roughly 2 ton gatling rifle itself, you would now be posed with sustaining the recoil of a single shot from this cannon at 13 times the kinetic energy of a .50 BMG, which you obviously can not do.
That, in spite of the fact that this same weapon pierces a mere 69mm of Rolled Homogenous Steel Armor at 500 meters. Hot tip, tanks carried more armor than that in the 1960s. Today, they have many times more armor than that, it is not homogenous steel, it in fact is a composite mixture including depleted uranium of much greater thickness than RHA.
In fact, a Panther I tank from World War 2 armed with a 75mm KwK42 L/70 was capable of piercing 124mm of RHA at that range. It also carried 6 million Joules of kinetic energy, or roughly 25 times the kinetic energy at the muzzle. And it was installed into the chassis of a 45 metric ton tank, with a double baffled muzzle brake and a recoil system, because otherwise the entire 45 metric ton tank would be recoiled back from the force of the shell being expended. And in spite of all this, a Panther tank would be utterly incapable of piercing even the rear armor of a modern MBT like the M1 Abrams tank.
In a nutshell, it is positively physically impossible for a man-portable, shoulder-fired weapon having enough kinetic energy to pierce the front armor of an MBT. It doesn't make sense. It is fantasy. Such a thing cannot be reasoned into existence or even reasoned about, because it is not even remotely in the realm of possibility. It exists solely in the mind of Matt Ward. Do not try to make sense of it.
2 things,
1) Mat Ward had NOTHING to do with this. The Vindicare has existed more or less unchanged since 2nd edition IIRC.
2) We have no idea what the Exitus rifle is made of or even what exactly it fires. For all we know it could phase out of realspace allowing it to bypass armor to strike the vital protions and explode. The Rifle could have subdimensional recoil absorbers allowing it to actually fire a round powerful enough to physically penetrate.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
rigeld2 wrote:Shaped charge 20mm round, with 38,000 years of technology, I could see it happening.
Kinetic energy is not the only way to penetrate armor.
But then surely 38000 years of Armour technology would have caught up? (Adamantium and Plasteel for example). Honestly trying to bring realism to Warhammer 40k is fruitless and pedantic, and I started a nerf thread. (on that subject surely 3d6 for Pen would be more suitable, or even better just make the Vindicare a character killer, like an Assassin should be.)
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
rigeld2 wrote:Shaped charge 20mm round, with 38,000 years of technology, I could see it happening.
Kinetic energy is not the only way to penetrate armor.
Okay, I'm sorry, I misread that.
A shaped charge round is not a rifle, and it is not propelled by gunpowder. We call those things HEAT rounds, and they're already in 40k. They're called "Missile Launchers," and they bounce off of AV14 in 40k rules.
Now, I wouldn't disagree with the fluff if the Vindicare Assassin carried a special, advanced HEAT round that was able to pierce the front of an AV14 model, but it says right there in the entry that it's a rifle.
A rifle is just a (usually) shoulder fired weapon with a rifled barrel.
But I'll bow out of the conversation - the Vindicare is fine.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Its reasonable that they could come up with some sort of ultra melta round made specially to penetrate tanks? Vindicaire is probably my favorite assassin but he suffers from the typical kill one thing then get destroyed next turn.
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Hmmm, are there any specific laws regarding the private ownership of Nuclear weapons?
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Not as such but the anti terror laws should do And since when has the FBI needed any laws to investigate someone wandering around with a nuclear weapon...?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/10 21:05:29
Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet. Psychic powers explain everything!
As to the davy crocket, it's illegal for any private citizen to own or operate a nuclear device for the US the last time I checked. If it's got anything to do with radiation, the nuclear regulatory agency has sole control of it.
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet. Psychic powers explain everything!
So just like everything else in 40k, it works because magic.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet.
I would wager that many Exitus rifles have existed longer then the entire Tau species. They were only club thumping savages a couple thousand years ago.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet.
I would wager that many Exitus rifles have existed longer then the entire Tau species. They were only club thumping savages a couple thousand years ago.
well they used to be 3d6 too and now upgraded to 4d6...I smell stolen tech!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/10 23:51:05
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
sudojoe wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet.
I would wager that many Exitus rifles have existed longer then the entire Tau species. They were only club thumping savages a couple thousand years ago.
well they used to be 3d6 too and now upgraded to 4d6...I smell stolen tech!
I just smell rules changes that have nothing to do with the fluff.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
So yeah...when we're playing a tabletop game that features plastic models representing psychic superhumans fighting space elves, our first and foremost concern should be realism.
We now return you to your scheduled game of tanks grinding to a halt for trying to ram jetbikes and plasma balls bouncing off a guy when half of his friends are behind a nearby bush. Carry on.
3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
~4100
~1660
