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A full IG power blob on the charge with straken and a preist has:
24 S4 I4 power weapon attacks with re-rolls.
90 S4 I4 normal attacks with re-rolls.
As well as having 51 wounds.
Pretty impressive, really.

Orks, BA or DE I think.

Assault marines are impossibke to look at in a vacuum. Is there a sanguinary priest with them? Hiw about a libby with unleash rage and the all important hood to stop things like hammerhand?

Khorne daemons, while arguably not competitive, are pretty awesome in CC. Juggernauts and bloodthirsters rule.

helium42 wrote:People who play purifier armies take Crowe for their HQ, making purifiers into troops choices. Four out of ten can swap their NFW for a psycannon, and those psycannons will shred through almost anything, weakening a unit, before any assaults happen. So losing four of ten possible halberds for psycannons is not a bad thing. To say that purifiers are super-generalists is wrong in my opinion, because they excel at both shooting and CC. They have the best of both worlds, like paladins, but without as much staying power.

Crowe, however, is a word quite different from Purifiers. We were not discussing the former.
If they were correctly priced or if Crowe didn't exist, they would just be a bit cheesy. If I field Purifiers as Elite choices as they were meant to be and someone starts bitching about it, not going to take it kindly.

And of course they're super generalists. They aren't specialists, so they're generalists. They are better at both than even some specialists, hence the "super".

Um idk if they're super because of the fact their heavy weapons are short range AND if they do trade in for max heavy weapons and take a hammer so walkers don't walk all over them they are not gonna be vastly better at cc then a dedicated cc unit. Also they can never be better then a dedicated shooting unit like devs, long fangs, blasterborn etc.

I am not comparing them just directly to each other either. A vendetta with meltavets is better then a 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycanons, 1 hammer and the rest halbers at shooting for pretty close the same price.

Yes I agree they're generalists but compared to dedicated units in the new books they don't outclass them at their own game. Even older dedicated stuff like th ss, lc termies from the bt book slaughter paladins or purifiers.

helium42 wrote:

Hyd wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:It would be bad enough if purifiers were elites, but the fact that they're troops?

They are Elite choices.
Furthermore, most of the time they're taken for the number of psycannons they can bring, which they swap their NFW for. The 10-man squad with as many halberds is all but unheard of.
In the end, they are undercosted super-generalists.

People who play purifier armies take Crowe for their HQ, making purifiers into troops choices. Four out of ten can swap their NFW for a psycannon, and those psycannons will shred through almost anything, weakening a unit, before any assaults happen. So losing four of ten possible halberds for psycannons is not a bad thing. To say that purifiers are super-generalists is wrong in my opinion, because they excel at both shooting and CC. They have the best of both worlds, like paladins, but without as much staying power.

yep. They're effectively troops because people who understand how crazy good they are will always drop the 100-so points it costs to take an army full of them. They're not really elites at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thecapn226 wrote:I think a lot of people forget that tactics is a major part of the game.

If only it were....

@greatgunz

Tactics do matter between good players and a decent board to play on. lol

Only time maybe it wouldnt is a sparse board vs a gunline. lol
Then youre just lookin to be abused or hope their die are bad.

Tactics are a huge part of this game. I was able to consistently beat top armies with chaos by capitalizing on the few strengths CSM have and out playing people.

Honestly, if you are looking for a cheap, fun assault army, I'd just use the Sisters you have as a base. A SoB assault army has a few weaknesses (It's come up in a few threads recently), but for the most part they are the same weaknesses as any SoB list - strong long range shooting and lists designed to pop AV11 transports en masse. It can rip up a lot of armies though, especially the assault specialists in this thread.

My 2k version is -

uriah, 5 DCA, 3 crusaders
rhino

8 repentia, mistress
stolen rhino
8 repentia, mistress
stolen rhino

SoB squad, MM, flamer
rhino (used by repentia)
SoB squad, MM, flamer
rhino (used by repentia)
SoB squad, MM, flamer
rhino

MM immo
5 dominions, 2 meltagun
MM immo
5 dominions, 2 meltaguns

2 Penitent Engines
2 Penitent Engines
2 Penitent Engines


Immo zoom forward, melt anything nasy. dominions hop out and melt something nasty after that. After that it's a wall of walkers, Uriah bomb and 2 cars full of eviscerators zooming up, all of which will tear apart nearly anything they reach. SoB squads sit on rear/mid objectives and pop whatever tansports they can reach with their melta. I use extra points to throw on hunter-killers... they don't do much, but they add some first turn punch to an army that mostly arrives on 2-3 or so.

If you really want to draw some fire from PE and get some cover fire, throw in an exorcist and drop down to 2 PE squads. I've also experimented with giving the Repentia immolators instead so they can open a transport and let the immo burn the contents - but I think having more repentia does more damage in the end. One weapon vehicles lose their one shot too fast.

At 2.5k you can get Kyrinov & bomb in the backfield to give your sisters fearless and a nasty countercharge unit.

Plus, it just adds to army options to play around with for your SoB army.

JennyBunny wrote:So I was wondering what is the Best Close combat army in everyones opinion?
I would like to avoid super Hordes as my Son is on the way in a few months So my husband wont let me spend too much money.

Firstly, congratulations!

Secondly, I personally would have to say either Space Wolves, Grey Knights or Tyranids.

Space Wolves have all the good stats of Space Marines but are fightier! They may not have the mobility of Blood Angels but they have some nasty wargear and special rules that more than compensate. They are also, in my opinion, simple enough to understand that you can change what units you use without needing to completely reinvent your army list or even your overall tactics (depending on which units and how many, of course), making them very easy to expand upon if you choose to do so in the future.

Grey Knights; specifically Purifiers, are very tough. They also have all the good stats of Space Marines AND have psyker powers but their points cost reflect that. I haven't played against a Grey Knight army as of yet but i understand that they are as good as, if not better than, they appear on paper. Purifiers can also be taken as a Troop Choice making them doubly useful when playing Objective missions. There are plenty of support options in this army but if you want to stay Close Combat oriented you are quite limited so i wouldn't say they are an easy army to expand upon.

Tyranids; specifically Genestealers, wreck face! Outflank and Fleet will often see them reach a juicy target quickly and with their stupid amount of rending attacks that juicy target will almost certainly end up dead. They are also about the same points cost as Space Marines and you can take some Monstrous Creatures for support and/or to keep your model count down. Tyranids as a whole are very Close Combat oriented so you have plenty of options if you ever wish to expand upon them.

Just my thoughts.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Let us not forget the most feared unit in all of 40K.......wait for it........a 30 man squad of Death Company marines led by Lemartes. FNP, fearless, furious charge, and relentless all come stock. Any, let me repeat ANY model can take a power weapon, a power fist, or a thunder hammer and on the charge hits at Int 5 and str 5! Not even counting Lemartes' ridiculous buffs when wounded, this squad can deal out (90) str 5 attacks at Int 5! nuff said.

Id agree fully here, force / power weapons on every unit. Crazy grenades, hammerhand, Rock hard ICs like Draigo the list goes on.

rodgers37 wrote:I'd say GK are easily the best all round assault army.
Everything has assault capabilities, Death Cults may very well be the best assault unit in 40k. But when you mix power armour, storm bolters, terminator armour, psycannons and the various CC weapons they have, with maybe Inquisitors with those silly 'nades or a Librarian. I think Gk have the CC punch, and the staying power to be the 'best' CC army...

I use daemons for my CC army.

Slaaneshi and Khornate Daemons( and the Winged Nurgle Prince) can tear stuff up in CC. Getting there is the problem.

But most of the Slaaneshi Daemons are Fleet, Beast/Calvary or Both, so that takes some of the bite away from the getting into CC problem.

Grey Knights by far.

Purifiers are such an easy button that it's really criminal. There's literally nothing in the game they cannot handle.

High I? Halberds.
Hoardes? Cleansing flame.
Vehicles? Hammerhand + Might from Librarian.
High T units? Again, Hammerhand.
Multiwound models? Force weapons.

You point them toward the enemy, click "go", and watch the fun.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Grey Knights by far.

Purifiers are such an easy button that it's really criminal. There's literally nothing in the game they cannot handle.

High I? Halberds.
Hoardes? Cleansing flame.
Vehicles? Hammerhand + Might from Librarian.
High T units? Again, Hammerhand.
Multiwound models? Force weapons.

You point them toward the enemy, click "go", and watch the fun.

Ok if its that easy send them at BT termies with th/ss and lc.. They'll eat purifiers or pallys in cc. lol Prefered enemy on those guys is just dirty.

I'd be interested to see the statistical breakdown on that. I have a hunch that, point for point, the purifiers are going to win that fight too.

That isn't part of the requirement. The only point of contention is best cc. If the purifier squad trades in for psycanons and a hammer they will be incredibly limited plus the popular squad size is 5 which has no chance in cc.

Vs all the proposed deathstars from the gk book outside of the dca/crusader one the bt deathstar has an advantage.

well yeah, you can kill a 200 point purifier squad, not optimized for close combat, with a 400 point squad of assault terminators. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

It's not just assault termies.. It's termies with prefered enemy that makes a difference and many don't care for pts in the twc thread when they say ANY gk is their enemy and they cost just s much. Its the combination of what the bt templar bring.

Also I don't see why people discuss purifiers in cc comparision since NO ONE ever brings them as described in the scenarios BUT everyone brings templar termies, twc etc a certain way for cc exclusively. lol

It's not always best case scenario gk. BT with all the tank hunter and such can shoot with gk and with the termies do cc with gk so then why is people always take a cop out answer and say gk win or are easy win buttons?

Congratulations on your baby. Nice to see other women playing Warhammer 40k.

Grey Knights is probably the best assault army. Purifiers with cleansing flame beats hordes. Deathcult assasins + crusader unit with lots of initiative 6 power weapon attacks joined by an inquisitor with hammerhand, rad and psychotroke grenades pretty much kills everything else.

Drago and Paladins is probably the cheapest way to make a grey knight army that is powerful in assault and shooting with few models. Although you want some purifiers to deal with hordes.

Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.

Furioso Deadnought whit blood talons -125
Sure you go first against front armor of 13 and WS 6
Meanwhile he gets extra attacks whit every unsaved wound he caused.
He will go through your unit like hot knife throgh butter

Space Wolves and Tyranids are armies that came to mind whenever I thought of close combat.

Space Wolves have a lot tougher units that are fairly good at beating the crap out of anything they run into.

Tyranids do not have to play horde armies and you could play a monstrous creature list or play with a good bit of genestealers and warriors with some monstrous creatures and do fairly well.

I play Eldar personally and I like close combat a lot. In most of my lists I play with 2 really strong close combat squads backed up by some really good shooting. It creates multiple threats between the close combat squads and some really good shooting such as fire prisms and the enemy has hard a time killing everything because of the wave serpent energy shield and holofields on the fireprisms.
So an eldar mech assault list would include:
hq: any combination of yriel, eldrad, farseers, and autarchs
Troops: Dire avengers or storm guardians setup with 3 flamers(I recommend Dire Avengers)
Elites: 1 or 2 squads of Howling Banshees (For a mech list banshees are a better option)
Heavy Support: any combinations of: Fire prisms and Night spinners

The dire avengers offer high volume close range fire power which can be upgraded by psychich powers and the fire prisms provide anti tank as well as anti horde. The banshees should take on the enemies toughest squad. With all power weapons and I10 on the charge as well as some psychic upgrades they can pretty well kill anything.

Hoped this helped

Draigo wrote:It's not just assault termies.. It's termies with prefered enemy that makes a difference and many don't care for pts in the twc thread when they say ANY gk is their enemy and they cost just s much. Its the combination of what the bt templar bring.

Also I don't see why people discuss purifiers in cc comparision since NO ONE ever brings them as described in the scenarios BUT everyone brings templar termies, twc etc a certain way for cc exclusively. lol

It's not always best case scenario gk. BT with all the tank hunter and such can shoot with gk and with the termies do cc with gk so then why is people always take a cop out answer and say gk win or are easy win buttons?

You can't take an entire army of BT Assault Terminators by taking a sub-200 pt character. When do you ever see anyone taking >1 unit @ ~2,000 pts? They also have ZERO shooting capability. In addition, most don't run them with TH/SS anyway because they want to benefit from Furious Charge. Guess what? Purifiers don't care about Furious Charge. With I6 Halberds, they're STILL striking first, and that's assuming that the BT get the charge.

On top of being better in H2H and shooting, Purifiers also get psychic defense and most likely benefit from a combination of hoods and Improved Aegis from riflemen in the early game. BT Assault Terminators get lashed into a bundle and plasma cannoned. They get Weaken Resolved, take one casualty, and run off of the board. Don't forget that BT are incredibly vulnerable to Weaken Resolve.

Purifiers are, point for point, so astronomically better than BT Assault Terminators that it's stupid to even compare the two. The rest of the codex falls right in line.



And let's be honest...GK also have DCA, which would eat a full squad of BT Assault Templars in one round of combat and laugh about it on the way home.

th3maninblak wrote:Assault marines are impossibke to look at in a vacuum. Is there a sanguinary priest with them? Hiw about a libby with unleash rage and the all important hood to stop things like hammerhand?

Khorne daemons, while arguably not competitive, are pretty awesome in CC. Juggernauts and bloodthirsters rule.

Yeah, I've got a friend who apparently makes excellent use of his Khorne Daemons...I play BA and other than shooting it to death, it's pretty intimidating in CC.


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^Bloodthirster, that is.

@JennyBunny:

Congrats on your coming child. Just curious, but is your S.O. supportive in you hobby? I think most spouses aren't, but if yours is, then you are very lucky.


@thread:

I just have one thing to say about Purifier grey knights:

They are NOT a great assault army. Yes, purifiers could be good in assault as they have the tools to handle almost any enemy unit. However, as an army, a Crowe-Purifier build is not a great assault army. That is because they are balanced with good assault and good shooting as well. They will not beat other assault armies in direct combat. Rather, they rely on their shooting to weaken the enemy before finishing them off in assault. A decent purifier build is a very balanced army. Balanced armies are usually never really extraordinary in any one aspect. Rather, they are good in all but never excellent in one.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Draigo wrote:It's not just assault termies.. It's termies with prefered enemy that makes a difference and many don't care for pts in the twc thread when they say ANY gk is their enemy and they cost just s much. Its the combination of what the bt templar bring.

Also I don't see why people discuss purifiers in cc comparision since NO ONE ever brings them as described in the scenarios BUT everyone brings templar termies, twc etc a certain way for cc exclusively. lol

It's not always best case scenario gk. BT with all the tank hunter and such can shoot with gk and with the termies do cc with gk so then why is people always take a cop out answer and say gk win or are easy win buttons?

You can't take an entire army of BT Assault Terminators by taking a sub-200 pt character. When do you ever see anyone taking >1 unit @ ~2,000 pts? They also have ZERO shooting capability. In addition, most don't run them with TH/SS anyway because they want to benefit from Furious Charge. Guess what? Purifiers don't care about Furious Charge. With I6 Halberds, they're STILL striking first, and that's assuming that the BT get the charge.

On top of being better in H2H and shooting, Purifiers also get psychic defense and most likely benefit from a combination of hoods and Improved Aegis from riflemen in the early game. BT Assault Terminators get lashed into a bundle and plasma cannoned. They get Weaken Resolved, take one casualty, and run off of the board. Don't forget that BT are incredibly vulnerable to Weaken Resolve.

Purifiers are, point for point, so astronomically better than BT Assault Terminators that it's stupid to even compare the two. The rest of the codex falls right in line.



And let's be honest...GK also have DCA, which would eat a full squad of BT Assault Templars in one round of combat and laugh about it on the way home.

Dude improved aegis only matter if a dread is close by.. That doesn't happen when people are using psyfleman. Also most crowe lists don't have a hood in the list. So they can be lashed just as easy and don't have ANY invulns. It's not stupid the thread is called best cc not pt for pt. Weaken resolve works really good on any squad that has leadership 9 like purifiers, grey hunters with wolf guard etc. You will care about furious charge since you will go before half of a 10 man squad of purifiers.

A 10 man unit of purifiers would on average, kill 2 terminators w/ LCs per turn with hammerhand. The Terminators in return would kill 7 on the charge. Without Preffered enemy

generalsava wrote:

Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.

Furioso Deadnought whit blood talons -125
Sure you go first against front armor of 13 and WS 6
Meanwhile he gets extra attacks whit every unsaved wound he caused.
He will go through your unit like hot knife throgh butter

Sure, if he can get past the 20+ str. 8 attacks GK throw out every turn. He's only av 12 but whatever. Crazy things happen.
Blood Angels are utterly hosed against GK. It are fact.

GreatGunz wrote:

generalsava wrote:

Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.

Furioso Deadnought whit blood talons -125
Sure you go first against front armor of 13 and WS 6
Meanwhile he gets extra attacks whit every unsaved wound he caused.
He will go through your unit like hot knife throgh butter

Sure, if he can get past the 20+ str. 8 attacks GK throw out every turn. He's only av 12 but whatever. Crazy things happen.
Blood Angels are utterly hosed against GK. It are fact.

You gave all 10 purifiers hammers? Um you are dead before the purifiers get to swing vs a furioso then. lol If you wanted to do that you might as well use sisters repentia.. at least if their act of faith goes off they get their attacks even if killed first. lol Furioso is av 13. Im curious when these debates start if the OMG gk are OP actually read the codex or just toss out random answers.

sub-zero wrote:Let us not forget the most feared unit in all of 40K.......wait for it........a 30 man squad of Death Company marines led by Lemartes. FNP, fearless, furious charge, and relentless all come stock. Any, let me repeat ANY model can take a power weapon, a power fist, or a thunder hammer and on the charge hits at Int 5 and str 5! Not even counting Lemartes' ridiculous buffs when wounded, this squad can deal out (90) str 5 attacks at Int 5! nuff said.

For only like, Infinity points too!