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sub-zero wrote:Let us not forget the most feared unit in all of 40K.......wait for it........a 30 man squad of Death Company marines led by Lemartes. FNP, fearless, furious charge, and relentless all come stock. Any, let me repeat ANY model can take a power weapon, a power fist, or a thunder hammer and on the charge hits at Int 5 and str 5! Not even counting Lemartes' ridiculous buffs when wounded, this squad can deal out (90) str 5 attacks at Int 5! nuff said.
For only like, Infinity points too!
Only 750 points with Lemartes, not including the extra PW's of course.
It is the 3rd Millennium. For more than a hundred months Games Workshop has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Nottingham. It is the foremost of wargames by the will of the neckbeards, and master of a million tabletops by the might of their inexhaustible wallets. It is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with business strategies from the early Industrial Revolution Age. It is the Carrion Lord of the wargaming scene for whom a thousand veteran players are sacrificed every day, so that it may never truly die. Yet even in its deathless state, GW continues its eternal vigilance. Mighty battleforce starter-sets cross the online-store-infested miasma of the internet, the only route between distant countries, their way lit by a draconian retail trade-agreement, the legal manifestation of the GW's will. Vast armies of lawyers give battle in GW's name on uncounted websites. Greatest amongst its soldiers are the Guardians of the IP, the Legal Team, bio-engineered super-donkey-caves. Their comrades in arms are legion: the writing team and countless untested rulebooks, the ever vigilant redshirts, and the writers of White Dwarf, to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from other games, their own incompetence, Based Chinaman - and worse. To support Games Workshop in such times is to spend untold billions. It is to support the cruelest and most dickish company imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of sales discounts and Warhammer Fantasy Battle, for so much has been dropped, never to be re-published again. Forget the promise of cheaper digital content and caring about the fanbase, for in the GW HQ there is only profit-seeking, Space Marines and Sigmarines. There is no fun amongst the hobby shops, only an eternity of raging and spending, and the laughter of former employees who left GW to join better companies.
Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.
Furioso Deadnought whit blood talons -125
Sure you go first against front armor of 13 and WS 6
Meanwhile he gets extra attacks whit every unsaved wound he caused.
He will go through your unit like hot knife throgh butter
Sure, if he can get past the 20+ str. 8 attacks GK throw out every turn. He's only av 12 but whatever. Crazy things happen.
Blood Angels are utterly hosed against GK. It are fact.
You gave all 10 purifiers hammers? Um you are dead before the purifiers get to swing vs a furioso then. lol If you wanted to do that you might as well use sisters repentia.. at least if their act of faith goes off they get their attacks even if killed first. lol Furioso is av 13. Im curious when these debates start if the OMG gk are OP actually read the codex or just toss out random answers.
I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
GreatGunz wrote:I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
THIS IS BEST CC ARMY NOT SHOOTING!!! LOL We aren't debating shooting good lord read the title man! lol
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
GreatGunz wrote:I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
Furioso dreads are av 13 front armor. with ws 6. If you want to talk about death company dreads, can take 2 of them for that pt value they are av 12 but they ignore shaken and stunned, as well as having fleet, furious charge, and 5 attack on the charge.
GreatGunz wrote:I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
Furioso dreads are av 13 front armor. with ws 6. If you want to talk about death company dreads, can take 2 of them for that pt value they are av 12 but they ignore shaken and stunned, as well as having fleet, furious charge, and 5 attack on the charge.
Yea...what he said. lol
It is the 3rd Millennium. For more than a hundred months Games Workshop has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Nottingham. It is the foremost of wargames by the will of the neckbeards, and master of a million tabletops by the might of their inexhaustible wallets. It is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with business strategies from the early Industrial Revolution Age. It is the Carrion Lord of the wargaming scene for whom a thousand veteran players are sacrificed every day, so that it may never truly die. Yet even in its deathless state, GW continues its eternal vigilance. Mighty battleforce starter-sets cross the online-store-infested miasma of the internet, the only route between distant countries, their way lit by a draconian retail trade-agreement, the legal manifestation of the GW's will. Vast armies of lawyers give battle in GW's name on uncounted websites. Greatest amongst its soldiers are the Guardians of the IP, the Legal Team, bio-engineered super-donkey-caves. Their comrades in arms are legion: the writing team and countless untested rulebooks, the ever vigilant redshirts, and the writers of White Dwarf, to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from other games, their own incompetence, Based Chinaman - and worse. To support Games Workshop in such times is to spend untold billions. It is to support the cruelest and most dickish company imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of sales discounts and Warhammer Fantasy Battle, for so much has been dropped, never to be re-published again. Forget the promise of cheaper digital content and caring about the fanbase, for in the GW HQ there is only profit-seeking, Space Marines and Sigmarines. There is no fun amongst the hobby shops, only an eternity of raging and spending, and the laughter of former employees who left GW to join better companies.
GreatGunz wrote:I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
THIS IS BEST CC ARMY NOT SHOOTING!!! LOL We aren't debating shooting good lord read the title man! lol
lol indeed
4 Psycannons for shooting? You can't make shooting GKs, it's not allowed!
10 Halberds in CC? You can't do that herpderp
Listen, dude, you can build a pure CC unit of Purifiers, you can build a pure shooty unit of Purifiers, or you can go the standard list of 2 Psy 1 Hammer and 2 Halberds, it doesn't matter what you do, it just matters what you're up against, they're good no matter what style they are. The only thing that changes is their focus.
PS, a squad of Purifiers with 4 Psycannons has a 60% chance to destroy a Furioso Dread in 1 turn of shooting plus a 30% chance to immobilize.
You could even go crazy and do something totally nuts and build one squad of Purifiers with ranged shooting in mind, complete with Psybolt ammunition and another Squad built for CC with Halberds. CRAaAAAzy I know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/15 00:11:32
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
No one said purifiers aren't good but they are not better. This is the BEST not whos the best shooting and cc. Hence why pure cc units like th/ssbt, furiosos are mentioned. In cc things like daemons, lc termies/th termies etc, banshees etc are used.
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
Avariel wrote:Congratulations on your baby. Nice to see other women playing Warhammer 40k.
Grey Knights is probably the best assault army. Purifiers with cleansing flame beats hordes. Deathcult assasins + crusader unit with lots of initiative 6 power weapon attacks joined by an inquisitor with hammerhand, rad and psychotroke grenades pretty much kills everything else.
Drago and Paladins is probably the cheapest way to make a grey knight army that is powerful in assault and shooting with few models. Although you want some purifiers to deal with hordes.
Even better, get Castellan Crowe and put him in your Paladin unit, now your Paladin unit has Cleansing Flame which would look something like this
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Avariel wrote:Congratulations on your baby. Nice to see other women playing Warhammer 40k.
Grey Knights is probably the best assault army. Purifiers with cleansing flame beats hordes. Deathcult assasins + crusader unit with lots of initiative 6 power weapon attacks joined by an inquisitor with hammerhand, rad and psychotroke grenades pretty much kills everything else.
Drago and Paladins is probably the cheapest way to make a grey knight army that is powerful in assault and shooting with few models. Although you want some purifiers to deal with hordes.
Even better, get Castellan Crowe and put him in your Paladin unit, now your Paladin unit has Cleansing Flame which would look something like this
Cept Crowe isn't an IC. You sure you know what you're talking about?
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
No one said purifiers aren't good but they are not better. This is the BEST not whos the best shooting and cc. Hence why pure cc units like th/ssbt, furiosos are mentioned. In cc things like daemons, lc termies/th termies etc, banshees etc are used.
The key fact that seems to elude you is that Purifiers are easy buttons against 99% of units out there, the one exception that you can muster being a relatively obscure dedicated assault unit.
Let's not talk about what you can't throw Purifiers at, rather what you CAN throw them at:
Anything with multiple wounds.
Anything with high I (cleansing flame beats the gak out of Banshees before they even get to strike)
Anything with AV (Librarian support makes short work of Furioso dreads)
Anything with high T
Anything of the horde variety
The list goes on and on.
BT Terminators are going to get their asses handed to them by a 30-man unit of Boyz or any unit that can put out a ton of attacks. A Nid deathstar is also going to punk that unit. Furioso dreads? Have fun throwing a unit of BT Assault Terminators into a DC Blender Dread or a Furioso.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/03/15 00:28:59
Cept Crowe isn't an IC. You sure you know what you're talking about?
Oh wow. I'm sorry.
I guess Crowe does suck then. Kudos Mat Ward.
While I'm on this streak of failure I might as well admit that TH/SS do feth up some Purifiers in CC and so do Furioso Dreads. LC Termies are a little bit more mixed and I think it depends on who assaults.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
We may never agree on which army is the best at Close Combat but we may see how good Draigo is in a fist fight at this rate
I had forgotten about Furioso Dreadnoughts and Blood Talons (who wouldn't want to forget that bs?). That combo alone is a very good reason to play Blood Angels.
BA is ok, but death company is weaksauce. Have those dreads/DC go chasing some useless rhino/land speeder or drop an empty drop pod in their backfield. Then start laughing. LOL!
My friend played against BA at last year's Ard Boyz with his Tau. Faced a 30-man death company unit and just sent them on a wild goose chase after some gun drones. Lol!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/15 00:43:31
No one said purifiers aren't good but they are not better. This is the BEST not whos the best shooting and cc. Hence why pure cc units like th/ssbt, furiosos are mentioned. In cc things like daemons, lc termies/th termies etc, banshees etc are used.
The key fact that seems to elude you is that Purifiers are easy buttons against 99% of units out there, the one exception that you can muster being a relatively obscure dedicated assault unit.
Let's not talk about what you can't throw Purifiers at, rather what you CAN throw them at:
Anything with multiple wounds.
Anything with high I (cleansing flame beats the gak out of Banshees before they even get to strike)
Anything with AV (Librarian support makes short work of Furioso dreads)
Anything with high T
Anything of the horde variety
The list goes on and on.
BT Terminators are going to get their asses handed to them by a 30-man unit of Boyz or any unit that can put out a ton of attacks. A Nid deathstar is also going to punk that unit. Furioso dreads? Have fun throwing a unit of BT Assault Terminators into a DC Blender Dread or a Furioso.
You are assuming the die rolls for purifiers.
By that logic assault marines can beat purifiers since they only have a 3+ save. Any unit with a power weapon can win.
Orkz don't auto win either since vs lc and being fearles will eat a lot of extra wounds plus die first to a better I.
A jacobus bomb will eat purifiers as well. Celestine will..
How many units you want? I mean all the what ifs you wanna toss in you can't say anything is best.
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
Its not so much that any unit with a power weapon can win... its that any unit with an initiative 6 power weapon to deal with meq and cleansing flame to deal with hordes and all those heavy weapon attacks to deal with vehicles and hammerhand and scoring.... there just isn't anything that unit can't do. It's an easy button.
BUt youre missing the point. This is only a cc discussion. Weve done the math on other threads that only a full size 10 man purifier has it that easy vs orkz. The math was done using the popular load out for a 5 and 10 man.
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
Draigo wrote:BUt youre missing the point. This is only a cc discussion. Weve done the math on other threads that only a full size 10 man purifier has it that easy vs orkz. The math was done using the popular load out for a 5 and 10 man.
You still don't understand.
Maybe this will help: What other unit is effective against as many other units in the game as Purifiers?
Draigo wrote:BUt youre missing the point. This is only a cc discussion. Weve done the math on other threads that only a full size 10 man purifier has it that easy vs orkz. The math was done using the popular load out for a 5 and 10 man.
You still don't understand.
Maybe this will help: What other unit is effective against as many other units in the game as Purifiers?
Terminators of any variety, fnp bubbled assault marines, gh, wraiths, bloodcrushers, power blobs, death company, furisoso, death company dread etc. No I get your point but you just want to ignore purely cc discussion. You other pathetic pt of contention is pts but then you still persist purifiers are cheaper then termies but have some other silly reason to discount gh and furioso. Theyre cheaper and for their pts better in cc,
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
Draigo wrote:
Terminators of any variety, fnp bubbled assault marines, gh, wraiths, bloodcrushers, power blobs, death company, furisoso, death company dread etc. No I get your point but you just want to ignore purely cc discussion. You other pathetic pt of contention is pts but then you still persist purifiers are cheaper then termies but have some other silly reason to discount gh and furioso. Theyre cheaper and for their pts better in cc,
Bloodcrushers, yes. Furiosos, no. If equipped with Blood Talons a Furioso is denying itself the ability to compete with walkers. Yes, it might be able to chew through a unit of Boyz or Nobz with fancy equipment, but it can't take down a unit of Killa Kans.
Death Company are horrifying, and so are Terminators most of the time. But note that Terminators can be beaten by Boyz of a sufficient quantity and FnP is nulled by force weapons, making it irrelevant in CC against GKs.
The only way a Death Company, in fact, can beat a unit of GKs is by stacking a sufficient number of power weapons. People really forget how substantial a 3+ armor save and Force weapons really are. They're terrifying. Most codexes have to pay 15 pts just to get a Power Weapon. With Assault Marines, you'd better not expect that FnP to go very far, especially considering GKs have Power Weapons and more base attacks. Even in the event of a charge, you'd still need 3 Assault Marine attacks to equal a single GK attack. That FnP is only worth a gak in shooting, and effectively that makes assault marines a wasted investment against GKs.
And obviously SS Terminators are meant to counter power weapons. Such as things should be. Units should have counters anyway. Dread > Furioso > Infantry > Dread and so forth. But only units with both a substantial armor save and an invulnerable save can really compete against Purifiers. That means that entire units are just null against GKs whereas before you might have a list that has a substantial volume of Power Weapons, even in a list intentionally designed to counter high armor save models, you at least had the advantage of sparing cost, and at least some guarantee that some portion of the units in the enemy's list wouldn't be delivering Power Weapons. It's not even that GKs can't be countered in CC, it's that they so thoroughly trounce horde units and high armor save or multi wound models that they're not even worth picking in a GK matchup. If it were one or two units in a list, you could say, okay, I cannot use Boyz/Nobs against that unit but at least I can use them here and so forth.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Draigo wrote:BUt youre missing the point. This is only a cc discussion. Weve done the math on other threads that only a full size 10 man purifier has it that easy vs orkz. The math was done using the popular load out for a 5 and 10 man.
You still don't understand.
Maybe this will help: What other unit is effective against as many other units in the game as Purifiers?
Terminators of any variety, fnp bubbled assault marines, gh, wraiths, bloodcrushers, power blobs, death company, furisoso, death company dread etc. No I get your point but you just want to ignore purely cc discussion. You other pathetic pt of contention is pts but then you still persist purifiers are cheaper then termies but have some other silly reason to discount gh and furioso. Theyre cheaper and for their pts better in cc,
And yet you still don't understand. None of these units is nearly as good against nearly as many other units as Purifiers. IN HAND TO HAND.
Terminators don't do well against hordes, FNP Marines don't do well against Monstrous Creatures, Wraiths don't do well against walkers, Furiosos don't do well against monstrous creatures and if they have Blood Talons, they can't scratch enemy walkers, so on and so forth. IN HAND TO HAND.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/15 09:26:52
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
BT Terminators are going to get their asses handed to them by a 30-man unit of Boyz or any unit that can put out a ton of attacks. A Nid deathstar is also going to punk that unit. Furioso dreads? Have fun throwing a unit of BT Assault Terminators into a DC Blender Dread or a Furioso.
As opposed to the Purifiers, who get their asses handled to them every bit as much as the BT Terminators against said units?
WARNING: EXTENSIVE MATHHAMMER AHEAD
Spoiler:
Assuming the BT Termies are 4 claws and 1 hammer and they get charged by 29 Boyz with a Nob (shootas, because sluggas are subpar for footslogging) the following happens:
59 BS2 shots (2 per shoota and 1 slugga on the Nob) - 19.66666... hits, rounded to 20. 10 wounds, 1.666 casualties, rounded to 2. If the Terminators fail their RZ roll (1/6 chance) chances are they'll be out of charge range, regrouping to fight another day next turn.
If 2 Claws die: Templars hit back first, 6 LC attacks. 4.5 hits, 3.375 wounds Orks, rounded to 3. Nob takes one wound, 2 Orks die. Orks attack, 81 attacks, 40.5 hits, 20.25 wounds, Termies die.
If 1 Claw and the Hammer are killed: Templars hit back first, 9 LC attacks, 6.75 hits, 5 wounds. 4 dead Orks and one wound on the Nob. 75 Ork attacks, 37.5 hits, 18.75 wounds, Terminators wiped out.
Reverse the situation and assume that the Terminators charge the Orks: 16 LC attacks, 12 hits, 9 wounds. 8 dead Orks and a wound on the Nob. 42 Ork attacks, 21 hits, 7 wounds. 1 Terminator bites the dust. Nob swings with 3 PK attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds. Hammer attacks, 2.25 hits, 1.875 wounds. Rounded to 2.
Taking the save on the Storm Shield leads to 0.41666... dead Terminators, rounded to 0. The Terminators lose one guy, the Orks lose 11 wounds (10 boyz and one on the Nob). No retreat leads to 8 more casualties, leaving the Orks at 11 boyz and the Nob
ROUND 2:
3 LC Terminators attack with 9 attacks, 6.75 hits, 5 wounds. Orks are down to 6 boyz and the Nob. 6 boyz hit back with 12 attacks, hitting with 6, causing 2 wounds, netting a total of 0 dead Terminators. PK swings, causing 1.25 wounds (as above). Hammer attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound after rounding. Odds are the TH/SS guy goes down to the Klaw.
Terminators lose one guy, Boyz lose 6. Boyz lose combat by 5 and need 3 or lower to not run, which means it's highly likely that they'll run. Victory for the Templars.
In summary: If the Boyz charge, they win. If the Terminators charge, they win.
Now, let's investigate Purifiers against Boyz. Assuming a 10-man squad with 4 Psycannons and a hammer, with the rest wielding halberds:
If boyz charge:
59 BS2 shots (2 per shoota and 1 slugga on the Nob) - 19.66666... hits, rounded to 20. 10 wounds, 3.333 casualties, rounded to 3. Assume 1 Psycannon and 2 halberds die.
Cleansing Flame goes off, wounding 15 Orks. 13 wounds, 12 die (Nob takes a wound). Purifiers strike first with 6 PW attacks and 6 normal (I know they don't strike at the same time, but it doesn't matter in this case). 3 hits of each, 1.5 wounds of each. Assume 2 PW wounds and 1 normal to be generous. 3 boyz die.
Boyz swing. 42 attacks, 21 hits, 10.5 wounds, rounded to 11. 4 purifiers bite the dust. Assuming that the hammer survives, it swings back. 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.84 wounds, rounded to 1. The PK swings, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.666... wounds, rounded to 2.
Orks have lost 17 wounds, 16 of which are boyz. The Purifiers have lost 6 Purifiers in combat. Boyz lose combat by 10 but are still fearless, taking 8 fearless wounds.
ROUND 2:
Cleansing Flame goes off. 7 wounds, 6 dead Orks. Assuming 1 Psycannon and 1 halberd remains, that's 4 attacks, 2 wounds and 2 dead Orks. 5 remaining Orks attack, generating 5 hits, 1.666 wounds and as a result 1 dead Purifier.
Orks lost 9, Purifiers lost 2. Orks lose by 7 and need snakeeyes to not run, meaning they most likely die. Sure, the Orks are dead. Have fun with your remaining one Purifier.
As a side-note, the Purifiers in this example cost quite a bit more points than the Orks, so it actually comes out in the Ork's favour anyway.
Assuming the Purifiers charge:
12 storm bolter shots and 8 psycannon shots, 6 and 4 hits, 3 and 3 wounds. 6 Orks die (Nob doesn't take one to reduce the number of hits from Cleansing Flame)
Cleansing Flame: 24 hits, 12 wounds, 9 dead and Nob takes one for the team.
15 PW attacks and 12 normal causing 7.5 and 6 hits, causing 3 and 3 wounds. One Ork passes his save, so 5 die.
Hammer swings, 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds. 1 dead. Klaw does the same, killing 1 Purifier.
Purifiers have lost 2, Orks have lost 16. Orks lose combat by 14. Orks need snakeeyes, which isn't likely to happen.
In summary, Purifiers beat Orks one round faster than the Terminators, but seeing as the Purifiers also cost quite a bit more points more than the Terminators, that's not unfair at all.
Now, let's compare the two units to each other. In this assumption, we assume 10 Purifiers with 5 halberds, 4 psycannons and a hammer facing off against 5 LC Terminators and 2 TH/SS ones. We also assume that hammerhand goes off.
Assuming the Terminators charge:
5 Purifiers strike first: 10 attacks, 5 hit, 3 wounds. Two TH/SS Terminators save, one LC dies.
Purifiers are wiped from the face of the board, Terminators lose one Terminator.
Assuming the Purifiers charge:
12 storm bolter shots and 8 psycannon shots, 6 and 4 hits, 3 and 3 wounds, not accounting for rending. 1 Terminator dies. Righteous Zeal gives the Terminators 1/6 chance to fall back, potentially saving them.
Purifiers strike first:
15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 5 wounds. Two TH/SS Terminators save, one LC saves, 2 LC dies.
3 LC Terminators strike back, 9 attacks, 6.75 hits, 5.0625 wounds, rounded to 5. 5 Purifiers die. Assume that the 5 Halberds take the hit, as they're the least valuable. Psycannon Purifiers strike back at the same time, 12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds. 1 dead Terminator, assume a LC as they've already attacked.
Hammers attack, Justicar deals 0.84 wounds, saved by a SS (see above). 4 TH/SS attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, rounded to 4. 4 dead Purifiers.
Purifiers lose 9, Terminators lose 3. The Justicar needs to roll a 3 or less to not fall back. Either way, Terminators win, even when they get charged.
Now, let's assume the worst-case scenario: 10 Purifiers with halberds charge 6 Terminators (4 LC, 2 TH/SS).
20 Storm Bolter shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 dead Terminator (assume a LC).
Purifiers hit first, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds. 1 TH/SS survives. He hits back and kills 1. Purifiers win.
That, however, is a completely unrealistical unit, as the Grey Knights need every Psycannon they can get their hands on. Furthermore, a unit such as that is fethed over as soon as a walker gets to them.
IN CONCLUSION: Purifiers and Black Templars Assault Terminators both massacre Ork Boyz if they charge them. If they get charged, the Purifiers fare better, killing off all the Orks but being reduced to one model, whereas the Terminators kill around 4 Orks before being wiped. Seeing as the Purifiers are more expensive, however, it is not that strange that they are better. They're also geared towards killing hordes, whereas the Terminators are better at killing MEQ.
4 LC Terminators and 1 TH/SS charging a Trygon leads to the following:
LCs strike first: 16 attacks, 12 hits, 6.666... wounds, rounded to 7. Trygon is at -1 wound before being allowed to strike.
As for the DCAs, they're not going to beat any Terminators if they have to charge through cover, seeing as they have no grenades.
Blood Claw Dreadnoughts are S7 on the charge, Killa Kans are AV11. I'll leave the rest to you.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/15 11:15:19
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. If you run a templar squad that isn't optimized to fight hordes, you'll find that the Purifiers do alot better than the Templars. Which just reinforces Nugz' point.
The larger point here, though, is that the black templars are about as elite as space marine assault units get, and they do about the same as a unit of purifiers who cost roughly the same amount of points. The purifiers are scoring (the terminators aren't) they have good shooting vs. vehicles (the terminators can't shoot at all) and they have force weapons to kill independent characters and thunderwolves and stuff like that (the terminators don't.) The Purifiers aren't even close combat specialists, and they have a clear advantage over the terminators in all these situations. Even if we let you have a squad of terminators optimized for killing hordes, the terminators still only do about the same work. The assaultiest assault specialists of the assaultiest chapter of assault marines that the Imperium has. And they break even. You don't see a problem with this?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/15 11:48:47
GreatGunz wrote:Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. I think what you'll find if you look at it that way is that the Orks do considerably better against the templars than against the Purifiers.
Furious Charge Lightning Claws with rerolls to hit are insanely powerful, as such you want to maximize the amount of claws you get. The TH/SS guy is there to give the unit some sort of defense against walkers and a dude who can soak PW wounds.
GreatGunz wrote:The larger point here, though, is that the black templars are about as elite as space marine assault units get, and they do about the same as a unit of purifiers who cost roughly the same amount of points. The purifiers are scoring (the terminators aren't) they can shoot (the terminators can't) and they have force weapons to kill thunderwolves and stuff like that (the terminators don't.) They're not even close combat specialists, and they have a clear advantage over the terminators. Presumably you don't see a problem with this, though.
Last time I looked, Purifiers aren't troops by default, although I guess it's a fair comparison, seeing as the Emperor's Champion with AAC costs almost the same as Crowe. Anyhow, the Purifiers are better against (non-EW) stuff with a high amount of wounds, whereas the Terminators are better against MEQ and other units with many 1- or 2-wound models with good armour saves.
Just saying though, against a Trygon Prime, the Terminators kill it dead before it gets to swing. Meanwhile, the Purifiers are likely not going to get their Force Weapons off, thanks to SitW. Against Space Wolves, there's a high probability that there's a Rune Priest, in which case the odds are against you again.
I'm not disputing that Purifiers are powerful in close combat, but they're not the most powerful CC unit out there. As has been said, they're a balance between excellent shooting and good CC prowess.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
GreatGunz wrote:Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. I think what you'll find if you look at it that way is that the Orks do considerably better against the templars than against the Purifiers.
Furious Charge Lightning Claws with rerolls to hit are insanely powerful, as such you want to maximize the amount of claws you get. The TH/SS guy is there to give the unit some sort of defense against walkers and a dude who can soak PW wounds.
Then again, you may want to maximize the number of terminators who live through enemy shooting by taking the shields. Especially since preferred enemy works with the hammers too. I don't deny that the lightning claw guys are strong on the charge, but I don't think you can deny either that this is a squad that's optimized for killing hordes. I think the hammers are the standard tactic, so you've got to start there.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
GreatGunz wrote:The larger point here, though, is that the black templars are about as elite as space marine assault units get, and they do about the same as a unit of purifiers who cost roughly the same amount of points. The purifiers are scoring (the terminators aren't) they can shoot (the terminators can't) and they have force weapons to kill thunderwolves and stuff like that (the terminators don't.) They're not even close combat specialists, and they have a clear advantage over the terminators. Presumably you don't see a problem with this, though.
Last time I looked, Purifiers aren't troops by default, although I guess it's a fair comparison, seeing as the Emperor's Champion with AAC costs almost the same as Crowe. Anyhow, the Purifiers are better against (non-EW) stuff with a high amount of wounds, whereas the Terminators are better against MEQ and other units with many 1- or 2-wound models with good armour saves.
Just saying though, against a Trygon Prime, the Terminators kill it dead before it gets to swing. Meanwhile, the Purifiers are likely not going to get their Force Weapons off, thanks to SitW. Against Space Wolves, there's a high probability that there's a Rune Priest, in which case the odds are against you again.
I'm not disputing that Purifiers are powerful in close combat, but they're not the most powerful CC unit out there. As has been said, they're a balance between excellent shooting and good CC prowess.
I think you have to count them as troops, since that's pretty much how they get used. Anyway there's no shortage of assault units that can wipe an MEQ squad. But units that wipe MEQs and non-EW monsters and thunderwolves and hordes and kill transports and score - those units are rare indeed. It's not that purifiers are completely unstoppable in close combat - it's that they're about an 8 in close combat compared to other army's 10s, but they don't give anything up to get that 8. They still score, they still bust transports, they still kill monsters, etc. etc. It's aggravating for other players who are paying out the nose to get those same capabilities, but giving up the ability to do anything else to do it.Your illustration with the Templars is a perfect example of that. Look at the numbers you came up with - the templars do assaults and nothing else, and they did about the same as the purifiers who do all this other stuff too. It's just tarded.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/15 12:20:26
GreatGunz wrote:Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. I think what you'll find if you look at it that way is that the Orks do considerably better against the templars than against the Purifiers.
Furious Charge Lightning Claws with rerolls to hit are insanely powerful, as such you want to maximize the amount of claws you get. The TH/SS guy is there to give the unit some sort of defense against walkers and a dude who can soak PW wounds.
Then again, you may want to maximize the number of terminators who live through enemy shooting by taking the shields. Especially since preferred enemy works with the hammers too. I don't deny that the lightning claw guys are strong on the charge, but I don't think you can deny either that this is a squad that's optimized for killing hordes. I think the hammers are the standard tactic, so you've got to start there.
Footslogging Assault Terminators are rubbish, no matter what army you run them in (and I don't count CML Deathwing Terminators as Assault Terminators, obviously). I guess I should've said that you'd have to count on a Land Raider of some sort being present along the Terminators, so in theory you'd get almost 2 squads of Purifiers for the one unit of Terminators and their LRC. The thing is, though, with the LRC the Terminators can probably walk through those two Purifier squads and still come out on top. With an AV14 transport, a lot of Storm Shields aren't needed.
The Purifiers are also infinitely more vulnerable to AP3, forcing them to hug cover or be blasted by Battlecannons and/or similar weapons. If you put the Purifiers in a Land Raider of their own you're paying for shooting weapons that aren't doing anything.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
GreatGunz wrote:Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. I think what you'll find if you look at it that way is that the Orks do considerably better against the templars than against the Purifiers.
Furious Charge Lightning Claws with rerolls to hit are insanely powerful, as such you want to maximize the amount of claws you get. The TH/SS guy is there to give the unit some sort of defense against walkers and a dude who can soak PW wounds.
Then again, you may want to maximize the number of terminators who live through enemy shooting by taking the shields. Especially since preferred enemy works with the hammers too. I don't deny that the lightning claw guys are strong on the charge, but I don't think you can deny either that this is a squad that's optimized for killing hordes. I think the hammers are the standard tactic, so you've got to start there.
Footslogging Assault Terminators are rubbish, no matter what army you run them in (and I don't count CML Deathwing Terminators as Assault Terminators, obviously). I guess I should've said that you'd have to count on a Land Raider of some sort being present along the Terminators, so in theory you'd get almost 2 squads of Purifiers for the one unit of Terminators and their LRC. The thing is, though, with the LRC the Terminators can probably walk through those two Purifier squads and still come out on top. With an AV14 transport, a lot of Storm Shields aren't needed.
The Purifiers are also infinitely more vulnerable to AP3, forcing them to hug cover or be blasted by Battlecannons and/or similar weapons. If you put the Purifiers in a Land Raider of their own you're paying for shooting weapons that aren't doing anything.
Yes, Purifiers are vulnerable to AP3, they have weaknesses, however this is a comparison of how units do in assault, and the I6, potentially S5/force weaponing Purifiers are very strong for their points cost while still being able to contribute in the other parts of the game. Thunder hammer terminators (Black Templar or otherwise) and Death Cult assassins are excellent assault units, but do nothing else (DCA can score with Coteaz).
Purifiers are close to being as good as the best Marine assault units, yet still have psycannons and psybolt enhanced storm bolters.
If I played Grey Knights (I do have Crowe) I'd never take anything else.
EDIT: For the best assault "army" I'd say that Grey Knights are pretty much up there. You can, if you want, field every slot filled with force weapon wielding maniacs. Given that Marines are the most common enemy, and pay so much for their 3+ save, the ability to ignore that particular roll of the dice gives you a fair advantage. Being able to become strength 5 means that you're basically as good as WS5 (4+ to hit, 3+ to wound versus 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound) so against the most common enemy in assault Grey Knights have the advantage. 3+ saves mean that they are quite resistant to most of the stuff thrown their way too.
Force weapons and things like the brotherhood banner means they have a counter to monstrous creatures as well.
A pure Khorne Daemon army would be the most "assaulty" assault army in my opinion though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/15 23:38:34
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