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Made in us
Manhunter






Little Rock AR

Sure, but if you bubble wrap the russes its a minimal risk. And manticores are nice, but only ap 4. Ditto with hydras, (which i personally dont like.) Vendettas compete with hellhounds, which are better anti horde. I usually run 2 vendettas, a hellhound, a vanilla russ, a demolisher, and a manticore.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

I'd give them a 7 or an 8. They're an AV12 long-range support option, just like 2/3ds of the heavy support slots, except that they get multiple direct-fire weapons, rather than a single blast. That and they can carry a scoring unit.

They don't get a 10 in my mind, because, after scout shenannigans, you never get cover, and it's just AV12 (which, even with an SMF save is still plenty killable). Given how high of a priority they're going to be, you can't expect them to survive long without being able to control the amount of damage they are going to be exposed to in return.

Honestly, I think I'd rather take 3 lascannon HWSs instead of 2 vendettas as the former gives you more targets, more ability to attack with greater resolution (you can be choosier with three units), are slightly harder to kill (three units, versus, two, and always having cover saves), and count as scoring. Plus, they can take orders to put out more firepower than the vendettas.

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Honestly, I think I'd rather take 3 lascannon HWSs instead of 2 vendettas as the former gives you more targets, more ability to attack with greater resolution (you can be choosier with three units), are slightly harder to kill (three units, versus, two, and always having cover saves), and count as scoring. Plus, they can take orders to put out more firepower than the vendettas.


They also miss more than Vendetta's, what with not being twin linked and all with BS3

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/22 08:30:37


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Honestly, I think I'd rather take 3 lascannon HWSs instead of 2 vendettas as the former gives you more targets, more ability to attack with greater resolution (you can be choosier with three units), are slightly harder to kill (three units, versus, two, and always having cover saves), and count as scoring. Plus, they can take orders to put out more firepower than the vendettas.


They also miss more than Vendetta's, what with not being twin linked and all with BS3


Vendettas are also BS3 and Ailaros already accnowledged that the HWTs aren't twin-linked:

Plus, they can take orders to put out more firepower than the vendettas.

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Cowboy Wannabe



London

They get 7/10 for me.

While they have a great set of weapons for their cost, they are very vulnerable after turn 1, and Manticores are always the first pick for in a guard army.

(Also you don't really want to carry 3 of them around..)
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




8/10

Fast, cheap transports that put out a lot of hurt. Whats not to love?

Yes, I use lascannon to take out russ - by getting in the side. Something trivial to do with a scout and 6" move.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

Would you consider a Vendetta if it was 35 points more expensive, as well as in HS, no transport, no skimmer, only available as single vehicle, not fast, no scout, no Twin-Linked LC save one?

Many Space Marine Players still do if they pick a Predator with Lascannons.

Vendetta is at least a 15 on a scale of 10. Like everything else in the game, it does have weaknesses, sure. But given what you get for its points, it's far and away one of the best things available in 40K.

   
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Dakka Veteran




Hold up guys.

Vendettas can't claim a cover save from moving flat out in the scout phase. I'm pretty sure only bikes can pull that.

As to rating them, I don't know. 360pts gives you a considerable head start in the firepower race, but only if you go first. They'd also be a lot better if people stopped using infantry as anti-tank platforms.

I prefer scout sentinels with lascannons over vendettas. They're easier to hide and much (much) easier to hide behind, making them more useful when you don't have first turn. You can even outflank them properly. Not as much destruction for the points perhaps but more reliable.

Edit: but yeah, they deserve a 7 at the very least.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/22 11:14:59


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I gues syou need to read FAQs then. Scout counts as a movement phase as far as claiming cover, determining to-hit, etc.

They are not a 15 on a scale of 10. There are much better options. Zwei you also missed that the pred has higher AV,can benefit from cover a lot easier, BS4 not 3 (not a huge difference with TL, but still an improvement) and can at leas thide out of LOS occasionally.
   
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

Deadshot wrote:So an arguement with a friend. He claims vendettas suck gak hard. They are the worst unit in the game and a waste of money, paint and points. I said the opposite..


For a number of years, they were the best unit in 40k, and they are still a top contender for best unit.

On a scale of 1-10, I would give them a 9.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshot wrote:His arguement spawns from a 2k game in which he ran platoons and 9 Dettas. He scouted them flat out as I told him for the 4+ cover and his opponent had hydras.
That's because 9 of them die very quickly in this edition. If he uses just 3, he will find them useful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/22 11:20:06


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

nosferatu1001 wrote:I gues syou need to read FAQs then. Scout counts as a movement phase as far as claiming cover, determining to-hit, etc.

They are not a 15 on a scale of 10. There are much better options. Zwei you also missed that the pred has higher AV,can benefit from cover a lot easier, BS4 not 3 (not a huge difference with TL, but still an improvement) and can at leas thide out of LOS occasionally.


Still. Do you think Space Marine Players would consider it a good trade if the Pred had TL on all Lascannons, as well as the ability to transport troops, move it to FA, the ability to be taken in units of 3, give it fast, scout and skimmer, and be cheaper by 35 points, all in exchange for losing 1 pt. of armour on the front only? (As said, BS hardly matters, BS4 non-TL is worse than what the Vendetta gets for less points; and 4+ cover (while static) is also alot worse than 3+ cover while being where you need it, as the Vendetta gets it).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/22 11:30:23


   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos





Zweischneid wrote:Would you consider a Vendetta if it was 35 points more expensive, as well as in HS, no transport, no skimmer, only available as single vehicle, not fast, no scout, no Twin-Linked LC save one?

Many Space Marine Players still do if they pick a Predator with Lascannons.

Vendetta is at least a 15 on a scale of 10. Like everything else in the game, it does have weaknesses, sure. But given what you get for its points, it's far and away one of the best things available in 40K.

Preadors are front armour 13 and get on average 1.3+0.9 hits, or 2.2. Vendetta gets 2.25 hits on average. So their damage output is nearly identical, except the Vendetta can outflank...which BA predators can do, if they like.
I don't hear people waxing lyrical about how great and powerful BA predators are. Sure the vendetta is under-costed by 10-15 points but the only real reason it's useful is that it's a heavy support option in a fast attack slot.

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West Midlands (UK)

Joey wrote:
Preadors are front armour 13 and get on average 1.3+0.9 hits, or 2.2. Vendetta gets 2.25 hits on average. So their damage output is nearly identical, except the Vendetta can outflank...which BA predators can do, if they like.


Doesn't add up. If the Pred does 2.2 on average for 165 pts. the Vendetta with 2.25 should, by equivalent, already cost 187.5 points WITHOUT being skimmer, fast, scout, transport capacity, and being in a FA-slot, etc... .

How much more do BA Predators cost just for being fast? 10 pts. Brings the Vendetta already up to 197.5. Lets just cost the ability to skimmer, scout and transport at 10 pts. each as well, and you're at 227.5 pts. Lower armour evens out with access to having units easily (immune to immobalized, for one). FA slot we'll just take as a given. So about 230 pts. is what a Vendetta should cost, even by a modest calulation still weighted heavily in the Vendetta's favour.

So, given that they are about 100 points undercosted, they are mathematically probably more of a 17.7 on a scale of 1-10, rather than just a 15.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/22 11:49:37


   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos





Zweischneid wrote:
Joey wrote:
Preadors are front armour 13 and get on average 1.3+0.9 hits, or 2.2. Vendetta gets 2.25 hits on average. So their damage output is nearly identical, except the Vendetta can outflank...which BA predators can do, if they like.


Doesn't add up. If the Pred does 2.2 on average for 165 pts. the Vendetta with 2.25 should, by equivalent, already cost 187.5 points WITHOUT being skimmer, fast, scout, transport capacity, and being in a FA-slot, etc... .

How much more do BA Predators cost just for being fast? 10 pts. Brings the Vendetta already up to 197.5. Lets just cost the ability to skimmer, scout and transport at 10 pts. each as well, and you're at 227.5 pts. Lower armour evens out with access to having units easily (immune to immobalized, for one). FA slot we'll just take as a given. So about 230 pts. is what a Vendetta should cost, even by a modest calulation still weighted heavily in the Vendetta's favour.


Lascannon sponsons on predators are over-priced.
If you think a vendetta is worth 230 you're mad. No one would take them at that cost. I think they'd be extremely rare >150 points.
And being able to transport is irrelevant, since it means you'll be going Cruising/Flat Out and therefore not firing.
Personlly I would rather be able to take Fast Attack Predators than a Vendetta. With AV 12 they'll likely only be able to shoot in one shooting phase. If your opponant has NO anti-vehicle firepower then great for you, however, most players will bring plenty of anti-tank, at least enough for an AV 12 model without cover saves.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

Joey wrote:
Lascannon sponsons on predators are over-priced.
If you think a vendetta is worth 230 you're mad. No one would take them at that cost. I think they'd be extremely rare >150 points.
And being able to transport is irrelevant, since it means you'll be going Cruising/Flat Out and therefore not firing.
Personlly I would rather be able to take Fast Attack Predators than a Vendetta. With AV 12 they'll likely only be able to shoot in one shooting phase. If your opponant has NO anti-vehicle firepower then great for you, however, most players will bring plenty of anti-tank, at least enough for an AV 12 model without cover saves.


Lascannon sponsons are over-priced? I guess EVERYTHING is overpriced compared to the Vendetta.

Stormravens are als AV12 and quite popular. With 3 main-weapons, rather than just two, they also go for over 230.

If transport capacity is irrelevant, I guess Landraiders should also be in the 120 to 130 point range. After all, they only have 2 TL-LC, some HB and trade the Vendetta's skimmer/fast/scout for some better armour.

So just because there are weapons to deal with it, it shouldn't be priced fairly? I guess Marines should be 1 pt. each. There are AP3 weapons out there after all. Landraider AV14 should probably not feature in their pricing. There are such things as Melta-weapons it is rumoured. Toughness 8 MCs should likely cost the same as a T3 Guardsman. There are poison and sniper weapons after all, that do not make a difference against those, thus pricing them differently would be rather unfair?



   
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Zweischneid wrote:
Stormravens are als AV12 and quite popular. With 3 main-weapons, rather than just two, they also go for over 230.



They also have Assault Ramps and can carry Terminators or other units that can actually fight their way out of a wet paper bag, unlike most of the units in the IG Codex that could get into a Vendetta.

That said, the Vendetta is obviously undercosted.

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Joey wrote:
And being able to transport is irrelevant, since it means you'll be going Cruising/Flat Out and therefore not firing.


Why is it irrevelant? The ability to "double-tap" enemy units (Vendetta for first, carried Veterans for second) or simply to carry a cheap Troops unit for scoring is anything but irrevelant.

Joey wrote:With AV 12 they'll likely only be able to shoot in one shooting phase. If your opponant has NO anti-vehicle firepower then great for you, however, most players will bring plenty of anti-tank, at least enough for an AV 12 model without cover saves.


The Vendetta is far more resilient than it looks. 5 BS4 S8 shoots cause 1.65 glancing and/or penetrating hits and 0.35 wrecked/exploded result. And my opponent wasted 5 S8 shots to bring down one model wih a 35% chance to actually do it!

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Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
Stormravens are als AV12 and quite popular. With 3 main-weapons, rather than just two, they also go for over 230.



They also have Assault Ramps and can carry Terminators or other units that can actually fight their way out of a wet paper bag, unlike most of the units in the IG Codex that could get into a Vendetta.
.


Well, I was just transport capacity is irrelevant, because you wouldn't be using your weapons moving flat out. Or something along those lines? What is it going to be? Should transport capacity be "paid for" or shouldn't it?

   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos





Zweischneid wrote:
Joey wrote:
Lascannon sponsons on predators are over-priced.
If you think a vendetta is worth 230 you're mad. No one would take them at that cost. I think they'd be extremely rare >150 points.
And being able to transport is irrelevant, since it means you'll be going Cruising/Flat Out and therefore not firing.
Personlly I would rather be able to take Fast Attack Predators than a Vendetta. With AV 12 they'll likely only be able to shoot in one shooting phase. If your opponant has NO anti-vehicle firepower then great for you, however, most players will bring plenty of anti-tank, at least enough for an AV 12 model without cover saves.


Lascannon sponsons are over-priced? I guess EVERYTHING is overpriced compared to the Vendetta.

Stormravens are als AV12 and quite popular. With 3 main-weapons, rather than just two, they also go for over 230.

Yes, storm ravens are basically rubbish against an opponant with any anti-tank whatsoever. Against an opponant with lots of anti-tank, they're downright useless. Protip-If three Manticores fire at a Storm Raven, it's dead.
Zweischneid wrote:
If transport capacity is irrelevant, I guess Landraiders should also be in the 120 to 130 point range. After all, they only have 2 TL-LC, some HB and trade the Vendetta's skimmer/fast/scout for some better armour.

Land Raiders deliver T4 2+ elite CC troops into the fray...their entire role is designed around this. If you're using the Vendetta to swoop veterans right in the enemy's face, you are welcome to do so.
Also the LR is generally considered to be 10-20 points too expensive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/22 12:05:28


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Hefnaheim

10 Because they provide excelt transport, suprior firepower and great movement
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

Joey wrote:
Land Raiders deliver T4 2+ elite CC troops into the fray...their entire role is designed around this. If you're using the Vendetta to swoop veterans right in the enemy's face, you are welcome to do so.
Also the LR is generally considered to be 10-20 points too expensive.



Sure. Space Marines have better infantry. But they pay for that in paying for that infantry. A Terminator is 40 pts. a model. You don't have to pay for it again just because you transport it. Your argument would only be valid if Assault Terminators would cost the same as Guardsman. They don't.

You seem to rather selectively (and heavily biased) pick and choose which boons are "irrelevant" and which boons "should be paid for". You're clearly measuring things by two different yardsticks here.

   
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Zweischneid wrote:Doesn't add up. If the Pred does 2.2 on average for 165 pts. the Vendetta with 2.25 should, by equivalent, already cost 187.5 points WITHOUT being skimmer, fast, scout, transport capacity, and being in a FA-slot, etc... .
You know, that huge skimmer base is a significant disadvantage. It makes getting cover nearly impossible for the Vendetta. If I were to call out one drawback of the vehicle, its that.

As such, I would not describe it being a skimmer as an advantage. I would pay an extra 30 points if the Vendetta was the size of a predator, and could hide behind my chimeras.

Everything else you said is dead on. Vendettas are awesome.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

Joey wrote:
Also the LR is generally considered to be 10-20 points too expensive.


Yah. We've been there. It's like a wrong-way driver on the highway insisting that everyone else is driving the wrong way. So everything is overpriced but the Vendetta? Fine with me, but in the end the same result as, the Vendetta is overpriced. Makes no difference.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Dallas Texas

Joey wrote:
Sasori wrote:
Joey wrote:
Smitty0305 wrote:
Joey wrote:They're delicate, difficult to get cover from, and highly visible. Personally I prefer more durable alternatives but they seem highly-rated on here.


Your definition of durability is bad. A Vandetta has the ability to move 24" away, as well as the ability to move 12" and shoot a weapon. Any other "more durable tank" has problems with moving away form incomming fire, and is much more prone to getting assaulted.

A good army will have plenty of S8/9 Anti-Tank weapons. The vendetta will draw plenty of fire.



Yes. Vendettas suck, because people shoot at them.


Taking down an AV12 flier is a hell of a lot easier than taking out an AV 14 Russ.


Not really because with a Rus's lack of mobility its alot easier to assault them with a chain/power fist against rear armor where it hasnt moved, because if it does move 12 it cant shoot. Its also alot easier to get within melta range for a rus

The vandetta on the other hand is cheaper, has more firepower, and has the ability to avoid assault. And the Rus is about 50 points more, and takes up a heavy support slot, while the vandetta takes up a fast attack slot.


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Manhunter






Little Rock AR

Its not that more expensive, its 20pts more. And if your half way competente the russ will have a infantry screen preventing assualt.

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Servoarm Flailing Magos





Yeah I always let enemy chainfists waltz on up to my Russes, and I never move them
Also a Russ is only 20 points more, 35 for a Demolisher. They can blast apart heavy infantry and heavy armour, in a way that vendettas can't.
Just to re-iterate, a Vendetta will get, on average, 2.25 hits per turn, 1.1 after cover is taken into account. Against AV 12 that's 0.55 penetrating and 0.15 glancing hits.
So this super over-priced over-powered vehicle will get 0.5 penetrating hits per turn, as well as being useless against infantry an highly visible throughout the battlefield.
As I said earlier, if you play against opponants with no long-range anti-tank at all then go nuts.

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Apples and oranges for Russ to Vendetta. They aren't remotely the same strategic purpose.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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Sweden

Joey wrote:Yeah I always let enemy chainfists waltz on up to my Russes, and I never move them
Also a Russ is only 20 points more, 35 for a Demolisher. They can blast apart heavy infantry and heavy armour, in a way that vendettas can't.
Just to re-iterate, a Vendetta will get, on average, 2.25 hits per turn, 1.1 after cover is taken into account. Against AV 12 that's 0.55 penetrating and 0.15 glancing hits.
So this super over-priced over-powered vehicle will get 0.5 penetrating hits per turn, as well as being useless against infantry an highly visible throughout the battlefield.
As I said earlier, if you play against opponants with no long-range anti-tank at all then go nuts.


Assuming cover at all times against a fast skimmer that flies above most cover is silly TBH.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Zwei - how in hell are you geting a 3+ cover save on your Vendettas? Or are you mixing up TB and Flat Out SMF?

Also you pay more for LR because their value in transporting terminators is huge. Foot slogging vs vehicle DOES give a premium required, you pay 40pts for the model to foot slog, not because you may want a vehicle.

General - 3 manticores hitting a SR with 3+ cover (GK libby, shrouding) has a damn good chance of being alive. And while all your AT slots have hit my single Sr, the other 2 will be winging their way to your lines.
   
 
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