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nosferatu1001 wrote:Zwei - how in hell are you geting a 3+ cover save on your Vendettas? Or are you mixing up TB and Flat Out SMF?

Also you pay more for LR because their value in transporting terminators is huge. Foot slogging vs vehicle DOES give a premium required, you pay 40pts for the model to foot slog, not because you may want a vehicle.

General - 3 manticores hitting a SR with 3+ cover (GK libby, shrouding) has a damn good chance of being alive. And while all your AT slots have hit my single Sr, the other 2 will be winging their way to your lines.

You'd actually use 3 Storm Ravens against mech guard? Wow.
And Manticores are a last resort. More likely I'd pop the Storm-Raven with meltas (you can re-roll that cover save, too) then shell the guys inside with Manticores.

Darkwynn wrote:They used to be good, ypu could have rated them at a 9 or a 10. Now I wouldn't take one in my list. Better use of points and everyone will shoot them right away. If they are in reserve they do you no good.

I would rate them a 3 or 4.

Do you really think they have declined so much, or is that just a manifestation of AV12 spam in general dwindling in effectivness?

Because when you compare the Vendetta to similar fire support units (ravager, typhoon, AC/LC predator) it's remarkably competitive. Of course, those units can gain cover and remain effective.

Polonius,

You almost hit it on the head. I don't think the effectivniess of AV 12 has gone down but large models such as the Vendetta that can't gain cover. Those other platforms that you talk about can take advantage of cover and mitgate shots.

Perfect example that I think people just don't realize is in this battle report.

http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2012/03/battle-report-grey-knights-vs-imperial.html

With so many str 8 shots your better off investing the points into other lower to ground models. Look at the discussion from my friend Jon Wolf and Mercer. Majority of people don't understand those concepts and think that these point efficent gunships are the end all be all.

Joey wrote:
You'd actually use 3 Storm Ravens against mech guard? Wow.

Not me, but theyre quite a good TAC list - you have one turn to deal with all three before their contents wreck face, and meanwhile 3 psyriflemen have caused you issues. Or they hang back and TL MM you.

Joey wrote:And Manticores are a last resort. More likely I'd pop the Storm-Raven with meltas (you can re-roll that cover save, too) then shell the guys inside with Manticores.

How are you getting that close with melta until i want to be close? You do realise you dont get double pen for melta either?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Joey wrote:
You'd actually use 3 Storm Ravens against mech guard? Wow.

Not me, but theyre quite a good TAC list - you have one turn to deal with all three before their contents wreck face, and meanwhile 3 psyriflemen have caused you issues. Or they hang back and TL MM you.

Joey wrote:And Manticores are a last resort. More likely I'd pop the Storm-Raven with meltas (you can re-roll that cover save, too) then shell the guys inside with Manticores.

How are you getting that close with melta until i want to be close? You do realise you dont get double pen for melta either?

So I'd only have 4 twin-lined BS 4 S8 AP1 shots? Oh, lame.

Is that sarcasm or not? And how are they twinlinked?

As always depends on what you are facing. I don't think anything warrents a 10, as luck and other factors can make your awesome unit a pile of debris on the first turn, or even a lemon can have a wonder game and earn back five times its points.

Going on what it can do, what its armed with and its points total, it has to be a solid 9, and potentially one of the best (mainly due to undercosted) units in the game.

Of course against some armies it might drop down to 3-4, against others its up to 11.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Of course against some armies it might drop down to 3-4, against others its up to 11.

The problem is that it's a 3-4 against missile spam wolves, razorback spam, grey knight psyflemen, and, ironically, gunline IG.

A unit thats not good against most top notch armies isn't top notch anymore.

In casual play, it's still tits.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Honestly, I think I'd rather take 3 lascannon HWSs instead of 2 vendettas as the former gives you more targets, more ability to attack with greater resolution (you can be choosier with three units), are slightly harder to kill (three units, versus, two, and always having cover saves), and count as scoring. Plus, they can take orders to put out more firepower than the vendettas.

They also miss more than Vendetta's, what with not being twin linked and all with BS3

There are also more shots.

6 BS3 twin linked gets 4.5 hits. 9 BS3 gets 4.5 hits. Three HWSs and two vendettas start out by doing the same amount of damage.

Then, a little better than half the time, two of the HWS will take orders and then it becomes 4.5 for the vendetta to 6 for the HWS. More firepower, more scoring units, not really all that much more fragile. Vendettas can still outflank, which is neat, and can still technically act as a transport if you have guys inside you want to waste, which still makes them pretty good, but I've never been able to fall all over myself as a vendetta fanboi.

DarknessEternal wrote:Apples and oranges for Russ to Vendetta. They aren't remotely the same strategic purpose.

Well, yes and no. If you use a vendetta as something that chills out in the backfield and shoots long-ranged weapons, then russes and vendettas do, in fact, fill the same strategic purpose. In this case, comparing a russ to a vendetta is like comparing a russ to anything else in the HS slot. The vendetta will do more damage, but will be much easier to destroy.

As Polonius, Darkhound, and others have noted, AV12 is getting tougher to make a go of, and AV12 on a unit that practically can't ever get a real cover save is even tougher. As time has marched on, that AV14 of a russ has looked sweeter and sweeter. After all, what's the point of having more up-front killing power if the platform itself doesn't survive past turn 2?

Joey wrote:
So I'd only have 4 twin-lined BS 4 S8 AP1 shots? Oh, lame.

Assuming the CCS is within range. Given i can kill th CCS chimera from quite a distance away (TLLC meet side armour) this is by no means g'teed, or even likely.

Have you seen multi SR lists? They do quite well against some lists, one being mech IG
]Edit: missed that you're using the CCS here (4 melta) - again, you're assuming that your chimera is alive. It isnt, most of the time.

For the most part they can take out their pts and more majority of the time. They get an 8/10 for me.

If you got first they can drop a few tanks or a MC hopefully or if you go second outflank and shoot as soon as you arrive killing something before you get killed. As a transport it's not great but there have been games where I've had a detta survive with a vet squad steal a last minute objective.

You can't say they aren't good because for their points and their stats they certainly beat out 95% of fast attack units in any codex.

All I know is the two torunies I've been to at Lenton, Vendettas featured highly in the top tables.

Okay it was doubles, so having Orks and Guad mix in together, or marines and guard adds a curve ball, but there was at least one guard guard combo.

Of course Grey Knights wasn't out yet, and I missed this years, so not sure if that continued this year.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:All I know is the two torunies I've been to at Lenton, Vendettas featured highly in the top tables.

Okay it was doubles, so having Orks and Guad mix in together, or marines and guard adds a curve ball, but there was at least one guard guard combo.

Of course Grey Knights wasn't out yet, and I missed this years, so not sure if that continued this year.

It's not quite all doom and gloom.

I don't think as little of them as Darkwynn, but I ran a lot of mech IG, and I'll say that AV12 in the current meta is like a 4+ save: annoying to play against, disappointing to play as.

Compared to a land speeder typhoon, they gain two points of armor in exchange for rarely if ever getting a cover save. YMMV.

Ailaros wrote:There are also more shots.

6 BS3 twin linked gets 4.5 hits. 9 BS3 gets 4.5 hits. Three HWSs and two vendettas start out by doing the same amount of damage.

Then, a little better than half the time, two of the HWS will take orders and then it becomes 4.5 for the vendetta to 6 for the HWS. More firepower, more scoring units, not really all that much more fragile. Vendettas can still outflank, which is neat, and can still technically act as a transport if you have guys inside you want to waste, which still makes them pretty good, but I've never been able to fall all over myself as a vendetta fanboi.

The major problem is that a HWS (in 4+ cover) will die to a single str 6+ shot 28% of the time, and then the rest of the squad will follow suit 42% of the time. On average, 6 strength 6 shots will kill and/or break a 3 man HWS.
These same 6 strength 6 shots will only produce two thirds of a glance on a vendetta, killing it 1/6 of that time, for a rather dismal 11% chance overall. Of course you get glances that prevent it from firing, but the vendetta's mobility is a balancing factor. Often the HWS will be unable to fire on an effective target without needing to be shaken. Often a HWS will give cover to a target that the vendetta would be able to avoid.

All in all, the 3 HWS cost 315 points to the vendettas' 260, each team is 10x more vulnerable to strength 6 than a vendetta, and of course they suffer in mobility, weakness to small arms, etc.

The only time I would ever consider 3x LC HWS over a vendetta is if I had a no-armor list, or inf+LRs. In an army with plentiful access to AV12, the HWS has severe weaknesses.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Joey wrote:
So I'd only have 4 twin-lined BS 4 S8 AP1 shots? Oh, lame.

Assuming the CCS is within range. Given i can kill th CCS chimera from quite a distance away (TLLC meet side armour) this is by no means g'teed, or even likely.

Have you seen multi SR lists? They do quite well against some lists, one being mech IG
]Edit: missed that you're using the CCS here (4 melta) - again, you're assuming that your chimera is alive. It isnt, most of the time.

I'd love to see a list that included three storm ravens AND could take out every single veteran and CCS squad, as well as their chimeras.
I suspect you may in fact be talking out of your arse.

When in a standard game, I'd say that they are about a 7 or an 8. They're good, but people focus fire on them and take them down. In apocalypse, on the other hand, 10 all the way. They can transport units, count as flyers instead of skimmers, and will not be focus fired, seeing as how they aren't the nastiest thing on the table.

Polonius wrote:AV12 in the current meta is like a 4+ save: annoying to play against, disappointing to play as.

Hah, I like this quote.

ph34r wrote:The major problem is that a HWS (in 4+ cover) will die to a single str 6+

Certainly HWSs are weaker against S6. Run the numbers against lascannons or deepstriking/ouflanking meltaguns and get back to me.

They may be weak against different types of guns, but they're both still fragile as all get-out. The difference is that the vendetta comes with scouts and the HWSs come with scoring. That and HWSs don't take up extra slots and can do more damage with orders.

I think people are overstating the Vendettas' fragility (never mind that AV 12 is when most anti-tank become unreliable) because the reason for it's insane power is all around it's alpha strike capabilities. The ability to have full control of the board when it shows itself (since if you go second, you can still outflank) plus being able to easily frag anything at long range short of a land raider or a monolith easily makes it's points back, and meltavets that it's most likely carrying can do plenty of damage on their own. Yes, the thing will collect the ire of the entire enemy army, but if you're wasting shots on them then that means that the rest of the guard army can move up unnoticed. And if it managed to survives (which is entirely possible if the player was smart enough to not move it close to melta weapons) then that's just another thing it's going to kill until it's finally destroyed.

I'd say they're a 9.

But, that's only because I define 10 as absolutely perfect. And, I can come up with a hypothetical unit that is much better than Vendettas (AV14 all around, fast, skimmer, with a constant 2+ cover, holofields, more guns than I care to list, scoring, and it's 0 points and you can take as many as you want).

I agree with whoever said 11.

At their point cost they are broken for what they provide. Only a very few units in the entire game are as bad point for point as a vendetta.

Kevlar wrote:I agree with whoever said 11.

At their point cost they are broken for what they provide. Only a very few units in the entire game are as bad point for point as a vendetta.

What army do you play?

Ailaros wrote:

ph34r wrote:The major problem is that a HWS (in 4+ cover) will die to a single str 6+

Certainly HWSs are weaker against S6. Run the numbers against lascannons or deepstriking/ouflanking meltaguns and get back to me.

They may be weak against different types of guns, but they're both still fragile as all get-out. The difference is that the vendetta comes with scouts and the HWSs come with scoring. That and HWSs don't take up extra slots and can do more damage with orders.

HWS are obviously more resilient against super high strength weapons, but I think your comparison is invalid. Lascannons will not be fired against HWS, they will be fired against vehicles. No sane general would waste str9 this way when he most likely has access to a plethora of strength 6-7, or even just an excess of small arms, leaving the str9 for vehicles. Outflanking melta guns are not good against vendettas either because they will never be in melta range. Outflanking plasma guns on the other hand butcher HWS like nobody's business, especially if you catch them out of cover.

I will definitely agree with you that both are fragile but powerful. I have used both, sometimes at the same time, and I have recently switched to a more ground oriented strategy which leaves out vendettas in favor of more meltas on the ground.

I would say that I prefer most the humble autocannon HWS (And the Hydra. Hydras own.), followed by the lascannon vendetta, and finally the lascannon HWS. Again, I make use of all three.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:I'd say they're a 9.

But, that's only because I define 10 as absolutely perfect. And, I can come up with a hypothetical unit that is much better than Vendettas (AV14 all around, fast, skimmer, with a constant 2+ cover, holofields, more guns than I care to list, scoring, and it's 0 points and you can take as many as you want).

I would think that a scale would make most sense if there is actually a unit that qualifies for the top position, otherwise how do you judge strength if not relatively?

Is there a unit you consider a "10"?

Hi Joey, this is why Vendettas are so good.

1)Scout Move and fast, they can easily reach enemy side armor in turn 1.

2)Predators are good, Vendetta have 3x the TL Las cannons

3) Vendettas can come in squadron of 3

4) Vendetta can easily play keep away with meltas while counter deliver their own melta vets

5) Vendettas get shot at, so does every vehicles out there, so what?
It also shows the high priority Vendettas are worth, because they are GREAT.

How many Vendettas do you field Joey? people at where I play usually have 9
though they keep it at 6 maximum to be less cheezy...

LunaHound wrote:5) Vendettas get shot at, so does every vehicles out there, so what?
It also shows the high priority Vendettas are worth, because they are GREAT.

It's true, but no cover = half as survivable in many situations. It can be rough. Then again, if your table does not have much terrain to begin with, your enemy's vehicles will be just as weak and you will be no worse off.

LunaHound wrote:Hi Joey, this is why Vendettas are so good.

1)Scout Move and fast, they can easily reach enemy side armor in turn 1.

2)Predators are good, Vendetta have 3x the TL Las cannons

3) Vendettas can come in squadron of 3

4) Vendetta can easily play keep away with meltas while counter deliver their own melta vets

5) Vendettas get shot at, so does every vehicles out there, so what?
It also shows the high priority Vendettas are worth, because they are GREAT.

How many Vendettas do you field Joey? people at where I play usually have 9
though they keep it at 6 maximum to be less cheezy...

Vendettas in numbers like that may well be effective. If I had 6 Vendettas I'd probably field them a lot too.
Few people however will have enough models even to proxy that. The average gamer does NOT have 3-6 flier models.
Because something is effective in spam form, doesn't mean it's good by itself. You don't need 6 Leman Russes for them to be effective, for example. Even Hydras are still effective in 1s and 2s.

They really are a fantastic unit. And for what they provide, cheap as heck. I say an 8 when taking one. 9-10 when taking 2+. When you saturate your deployment zone with them, their survivability doesn't play into it as much.

As said before, the alpha strike potential they have is magnificent. Even if you don't get the first turn, you still will have had that SMF save that helps immensly to make sure you get to use that 3 TL Lascannon AT goodness.

ph34r wrote:

Grakmar wrote:I'd say they're a 9.

But, that's only because I define 10 as absolutely perfect. And, I can come up with a hypothetical unit that is much better than Vendettas (AV14 all around, fast, skimmer, with a constant 2+ cover, holofields, more guns than I care to list, scoring, and it's 0 points and you can take as many as you want).

I would think that a scale would make most sense if there is actually a unit that qualifies for the top position, otherwise how do you judge strength if not relatively?

Is there a unit you consider a "10"?

No. If there was a unit you ranked as 10, the next codex may come out with an even better unit, and then you're screwed because you can't rank it any higher.

10 is absolute perfection, and if any unit ever got 10, the entire game of 40k would break completely.

Grakmar wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Grakmar wrote:I'd say they're a 9.

But, that's only because I define 10 as absolutely perfect. And, I can come up with a hypothetical unit that is much better than Vendettas (AV14 all around, fast, skimmer, with a constant 2+ cover, holofields, more guns than I care to list, scoring, and it's 0 points and you can take as many as you want).

I would think that a scale would make most sense if there is actually a unit that qualifies for the top position, otherwise how do you judge strength if not relatively?

Is there a unit you consider a "10"?

No. If there was a unit you ranked as 10, the next codex may come out with an even better unit, and then you're screwed because you can't rank it any higher.

10 is absolute perfection, and if any unit ever got 10, the entire game of 40k would break completely.

Then scrap 10 and make 9->10. If your scale makes a 10/10 impossible then it's wrong.

I am amazed at how much people decry those flying stands.

If I mount my Landraiders on flying stands, would you let me have em for 150 pts. instead of 250? If I put an Eldar Falcon up there, would you let me take it for free?

Lack of cover can be a drawback sometimes, a given. But it's not such a major issue as people make it out to be. Certainly nothing that wouldn't be more than made up by the advantages of mobility, especially for a fast and scouting skimmer, to be where you truly need it to be.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Joey wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Joey wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

Joey wrote:They're delicate, difficult to get cover from, and highly visible. Personally I prefer more durable alternatives but they seem highly-rated on here.

Your definition of durability is bad. A Vandetta has the ability to move 24" away, as well as the ability to move 12" and shoot a weapon. Any other "more durable tank" has problems with moving away form incomming fire, and is much more prone to getting assaulted.

A good army will have plenty of S8/9 Anti-Tank weapons. The vendetta will draw plenty of fire.

Yes. Vendettas suck, because people shoot at them.

Taking down an AV12 flier is a hell of a lot easier than taking out an AV 14 Russ.

Said av12 flier can take down an AV 14 Russ for cheaper,

Said AV14 Russ can take down Said AV12 flier more effectively, it's pretty difficult for a vendetta to take down a Russ in 1 turn.

I'd still give it a 9, it makes me as a Tau player envy the guard so much

Also, there is a disadvantage to moving 24" while it does give you a CS, it makes you even more vulnerable if they opponent gets a glancing on pen on your vehicle, but that's the risk you run, and it's never to bad if you have 3 Melta vets in there!