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Dysartes wrote:I'm curious, ph34r - why do you seem so angry about this Kickstarter? Providing incentives for higher donations seems to be part of the standard approach on the site, and quite a few I've seen have included branded merchandise even before the brand has become well-known.

As a fellow businessman, I'm sort of disgusted by how lazy many kickstarter projects are these days. This company has done literally nothing and they are already trying to get people to wear and use products with their logo plastered all over them. They want people to pay them money to get rebranded generic products to advertise for a company that has done legit nothing.

The logos aren't bad, but I'd rather not have them plastered over everything. Especially the rulebook cover, which would otherwise be quite nice

Cyporiean wrote:

Cadaver wrote:
Emerett, it's cool you are doing the "big three" but perhaps focusing on the smaller games like Malifaux, Dark Age, GW specialist games as well would nice. Most folks know generally about the bigger games, and I not saying don't cover them. However, providing tutorials on games people may be hesitant to get into for no other reason than lack of exposure might draw more attention. In any event, I wish you and your team the best of luck!

Seconding this.


When Beasts of War did their Infinity stuff it really increased the interest in that game.

I bought three Infinity armies off the back of that promotion. I had already been interested in the game, and it was the combination of BoW coverage and the accompanying offers that kickstarted me.

OP: you can also have like periodic interviews with tournament winners ( inreturn they get boost to epeen xDDD)

And regarding the video ( this is important since I assume we'll be watching the program in video format? )
But please, dont raise eyebrows that high and dont turn side ways all the time. That body language makes me not want to watch :'P

ph34r wrote:

Dysartes wrote:I'm curious, ph34r - why do you seem so angry about this Kickstarter? Providing incentives for higher donations seems to be part of the standard approach on the site, and quite a few I've seen have included branded merchandise even before the brand has become well-known.

As a fellow businessman, I'm sort of disgusted by how lazy many kickstarter projects are these days. This company has done literally nothing and they are already trying to get people to wear and use products with their logo plastered all over them. They want people to pay them money to get rebranded generic products to advertise for a company that has done legit nothing.

It's called building a brand. That's what marketing tells people they need to do these days.

If people believe in the promise they will contribute, otherwise they won't.

I've paid into a couple of Kickstarter projects that interested me. It's only $50 a go so not going to break the bank if it all comes to nothing.

In the longer run there is a danger that Kickstarter will become a focus for scams in which people make false promises just to receive the money.

LunaHound wrote:OP: you can also have like periodic interviews with tournament winners ( inreturn they get boost to epeen xDDD)

That would be great. I'd love to hear more from tournament winners.


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Kilkrazy wrote:It's called building a brand. That's what marketing tells people they need to do these days.

If people believe in the promise they will contribute, otherwise they won't.

You know what people need to do more? Commit to their projects. Show their potential fanbase that they are serious, that they are quality, that they are dedicated, before they try to shovel logos down our throats with zero substance.

I like the Idea and I don't think ph34r is trolling it on purpose... are you? or is it suppopsed to be constructive?
anyway the Idea is supperb and I am now following and the rest of it but I can't donate... sorry for that. Good luck in the future.

I also love Beast of War, how did they ever get started?

I remember they have been always extremely professional

LunaHound wrote:I am curious about one thing, it says you guys will introduce hobby & game to newbies ( including popular warhammer and warmachine )

my question is, will you use warhammer or warmachine as primary introduction into the hobby aspect?

That is actually a fantastic question. Warmachine and Warhammer both have fantastic appeal due to their large model base, popularity and excellent lore with huge support from their manufacturers.

These games may not be the best choice for players brand new to the hobby however. Due to rules complexity, indecision in what models to choose and large initial cost.

We have a section planned for players that are *brand new* to the hobby, where we will outline all inclusive games and how they play, trying to help them make a decision in what to purchase.

The short list of the games for this section were:

Super Dungeon Explore
Blood Bowl
Grind
HeroClix

If you're serious about introducing *new* people to the wargaming hobby (as opposed to the GW hobby), have you considered using Kings of War in addition to/ instead of warhammer as your sample game?

Warhammer startup costs:
Army book: £25
Rulebook: £35
Army: £150

KoW startup costs:
Army book/ Rulebook: Free to download, is also included free in army sets.
Army: £75

So, you're looking at 3x the cost to get into warhammer compared to KoW. Now, money is no object if you're a kid with rich parents, but from the perspective of trying to get adults interested (as I assume the videos will be aimed at?), money is a big factor, and I think you're going to need at least some coverage of a real "newbie friendly" game.

It's not just money either, rules complexity is a problem, with 200+ pages of warhammer rules, and 12 pages of KoW rules, the latter is much, much easier to teach to new players. You could easily get it done in a very short series of intro videos that don't drag on and bore peopple.

Warmachine works great as an intro as well, since the startup cost is low, and if you stick to the battlebox, the complexity of the game is kept in check.

So do other skirmish games, since the initial entry point is low. Just wondering if you'd ever consider casting your net a little wider than the games you're personally into? As many games as possible would be great. BoW is a video site that has had a lot of success by giving exposure to as many people as possible.

Once you're set up and are making high-quality painting and modelling videos, it's a safe bet that Mantic will be happy to send plenty of free stuff your way, their support for sites that offer them exposure is pretty good, BoW even gets a ton of exclusive interviews and things.

Emerett wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I am curious about one thing, it says you guys will introduce hobby & game to newbies ( including popular warhammer and warmachine )

my question is, will you use warhammer or warmachine as primary introduction into the hobby aspect?

That is actually a fantastic question. Warmachine and Warhammer both have fantastic appeal due to their large model base, popularity and excellent lore with huge support from their manufacturers.

These games may not be the best choice for players brand new to the hobby however.

The short list of the games for this section were:

Super Dungeon Explore

Very good, I can see you guys have thought it out carefully, my original question was a trick question :'P
and Im not disappointed by your answer, excellent :3

@scarletsquig, the main reason OP chose those game is pretty clear.

Bloodbowl aka GW
Grind aka PP

Both will dable into the popular company they belong to, yet not mainstream enough to have drama right away.

Charax wrote:The logos aren't bad, but I'd rather not have them plastered over everything. Especially the rulebook cover, which would otherwise be quite nice

I hadn't predicted that anybody would actually be upset that something would be branded with a gaming related logo.

I have updated the rewards to allow for a unbranded cover.

anton wrote:I like the Idea and I don't think ph34r is trolling it on purpose... are you? or is it suppopsed to be constructive?
anyway the Idea is supperb and I am now following and the rest of it but I can't donate... sorry for that. Good luck in the future.

Nope, not trolling at all. Just giving my blunt opinion, I would be more generous with my benefit of the doubt if there was a sample interview or intro or tutorial or anything but this kickstarter had no such thing, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

ph34r wrote:

anton wrote:I like the Idea and I don't think ph34r is trolling it on purpose... are you? or is it suppopsed to be constructive?
anyway the Idea is supperb and I am now following and the rest of it but I can't donate... sorry for that. Good luck in the future.

Nope, not trolling at all. Just giving my blunt opinion, I would be more generous with my benefit of the doubt if there was a sample interview or intro or tutorial or anything but this kickstarter had no such thing, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

If you would read the previous page instead of jumping to conclusions, you would see that I have expanded on the multiple requests for this.

Emerett wrote:Just a quick update: 27 Days Left

We are currently in the process of trying to find a camera to rent / borrow so we can put together a decent preview tutorial showing the format and style that our videos will be (the original was shot on a smartphone, audio sync issues make it impossible for me to edit properly). Once we find one, we will update the Kickstarter page with the demo tutorial all of you have suggested. Hopefully this will happen by thursday of next week, March 12th.

As you can see, it is in the works. If you have a bad taste in your mouth, you are more than welcome to just vacate the thread. Everyone else here is being very helpful with input that we are using to update the project.

One of the best things about using Kickstarter is the feedback from the community, as they are the investor.

If we were to go find a Angel Investor to start this project, our only goal would be to make the investor happy and we would most likely never hear from the community.

Emerett wrote:We are currently in the process of trying to find a camera to rent / borrow so we can put together a decent preview tutorial showing the format and style that our videos will be (the original was shot on a smartphone, audio sync issues make it impossible for me to edit properly). Once we find one, we will update the Kickstarter page with the demo tutorial all of you have suggested. Hopefully this will happen by thursday of next week, March 12th.

The impression that you are giving off, to me and others I have spoken to in real life, is that you expect the community to support you, when you aren't confident enough in yourself to invest a day in filming a tutorial and a few hundred of your own money in a basic video camera. Look at other wargaming kickstarters, they have sculpted master models and quality concept art. I have nothing against you personally but I think your business strategy makes you appear very weak and not appealing to myself as a potential investor. I would love to see a website like you aspire to be, but if you are not willing to put in the effort to show me what you are capable of I am not giving you my money.

You just seem angry at this point, you are providing nothing constructive.

There are other people here that actually seem interested in a project like the one we are Kickstarting, so I will spend my time talking with them.

Emerett wrote:You just seem angry at this point, you are providing nothing constructive.

There are other people here that actually seem interested in a project like the one we are Kickstarting, so I will spend my time talking with them.

Believe me, I'm not angry. A sophisticated "u mad" is not conducive to improving your company.

I note that you chose to ignore the fact that I stated that I am interested in a project like this. My constructive criticism that I have been telling you is show that you have initiative and that you believe in your company enough to get a camera and produce something, anything, like what your website would contain. If you don't think that is a good way forward for you, that is up to you. Good luck.

Emerett wrote:

Charax wrote:The logos aren't bad, but I'd rather not have them plastered over everything. Especially the rulebook cover, which would otherwise be quite nice

I hadn't predicted that anybody would actually be upset that something would be branded with a gaming related logo.

I have updated the rewards to allow for a unbranded cover.

Not upset, just strikes me that if someone's paying towards your startup costs, you shouldn't then use them as a human billboard. Thanks for making the change.

As an aside, it's a little unprofessional to use contractions and misspellings when mentioning actual released products (the Games are called "Super Dungeon Explore", "Flames of War" and "Warhammer 40,000", not Super Dungeon Explorer, Flames and Warhammer 40k - again, your target audience have never played these games before, they might get confused).

I won't be backing, simply because I have absolutely no interest in podcasts or video reviews - no malice in that, I just don't like them. I wish you the best, and if the rulebook covers are available after you're set up, I may get a few

Emerett wrote:

ph34r wrote:

anton wrote:I like the Idea and I don't think ph34r is trolling it on purpose... are you? or is it suppopsed to be constructive?
anyway the Idea is supperb and I am now following and the rest of it but I can't donate... sorry for that. Good luck in the future.

Nope, not trolling at all. Just giving my blunt opinion, I would be more generous with my benefit of the doubt if there was a sample interview or intro or tutorial or anything but this kickstarter had no such thing, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

If you would read the previous page instead of jumping to conclusions, you would see that I have expanded on the multiple requests for this.

Emerett wrote:Just a quick update: 27 Days Left

We are currently in the process of trying to find a camera to rent / borrow so we can put together a decent preview tutorial showing the format and style that our videos will be (the original was shot on a smartphone, audio sync issues make it impossible for me to edit properly). Once we find one, we will update the Kickstarter page with the demo tutorial all of you have suggested. Hopefully this will happen by thursday of next week, March 12th.

As you can see, it is in the works. If you have a bad taste in your mouth, you are more than welcome to just vacate the thread. Everyone else here is being very helpful with input that we are using to update the project.

One of the best things about using Kickstarter is the feedback from the community, as they are the investor.

If we were to go find a Angel Investor to start this project, our only goal would be to make the investor happy and we would most likely never hear from the community.

I don't quite see what you mean..... please explain?

ph34r wrote:Nope, not trolling at all. Just giving my blunt opinion, I would be more generous with my benefit of the doubt if there was a sample interview or intro or tutorial or anything but this kickstarter had no such thing, and left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Yeah, we understand you don't like this idea and have made it clear in numerous posts. So why don't you leave the thread now? To continue posting negative posts here is trolling.

I actually like the idea of a webpage like this. I've "starred" the project and will see if I can find some money in the budget to help out.

What I would suggest though, is getting your hands on any camera (even 240p) and put a video up on Youtube or something. Concentrate on getting the presentation, camera work and editing up to snuff and worry about going high-res once you have enough to cover the camera.

helium42 wrote:Yeah, we understand you don't like this idea and have made it clear in numerous posts. So why don't you leave the thread now? To continue posting negative posts here is trolling.

I'm sorry if my opinion ruffled your feathers, but please do not insult me as trolling. Trolling would imply that I am stating false opinions to eke responses out of people and make them mad. I do not troll. I am more than happy to leave this thread alone unless someone insults me further, as sadly I do not think that the OP agrees that my suggestions to invest himself more in his company are strong business decisions.


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frozenwastes wrote:What I would suggest though, is getting your hands on any camera (even 240p) and put a video up on Youtube or something. Concentrate on getting the presentation, camera work and editing up to snuff and worry about going high-res once you have enough to cover the camera.

If you won't listen to me, listen to this guy!

frozenwastes wrote:I actually like the idea of a webpage like this. I've "starred" the project and will see if I can find some money in the budget to help out.

What I would suggest though, is getting your hands on any camera (even 240p) and put a video up on Youtube or something. Concentrate on getting the presentation, camera work and editing up to snuff and worry about going high-res once you have enough to cover the camera.

We have one scheduled to be rented on Monday, after shooting and editing I will be able to have a demo up on the Kickstarter page by Thursday.

People keep suggesting that we just buy a cheap camera to do some demos on (which we have a couple of), but I am very concerned that if I put up a low quality demo video, that donators may think that will be the final quality.

Grainy picture, camera shake, bad audio and poorly lit videos drive me crazy. I don't find them acceptable and they won't be on GeekPlug.com. So I don't want to put a demo up that suggests that is what we will be producing.


So to everyone demanding a demo video, be patient, it's coming this week.

I am sure you will announce it in this thread.

You are trying to get donations for a website dedicated to wargaming, but only the wargames of your choice, and this is the following setup right now:

You have no videos, or articles
You don't even have a camera
You tell us what you will do, but we have no way of knowing you are going to. (possible kickstarter scam, which I remember is something to be worried about)


So.

If you want donations, then prove you can provide high quality content, and have some before asking for donations. As it stands even though your ideas are sound, I see no reason why I should donate. Your videos could be full of awful internet memes and you guys playing/teaching table top games, or it could be amazing, insightful, and spot on commentary.

If you are concerned about putting up bad looking videos, then put them up anyway and add a disclaimer to the videos about the image quality. Then if your site actually works, place all those videos that helped you get started in a special section on the site, and focus on the fundamentals of all the wargames, and explain them.

As i said in my personal message to you i think your project is interesting and wish you the best of luck. After reading this thread i am glad you are taking the great advice of doing at least one demo. I have been very open minded while reading the thread and i genuinely didn't see any trolling for ph34r.

Not to labour the topic but i am following and occasionally 'advising' someone who is doing exactly the same thing as this. They have already made 21 informative, fun videos of enjoyable quality with no former knowledge of the process or wargaming. They had £0 startup costs and only an old laptop to work on.

That youtuber hasn't even hinted at funding or asked for help yet and has over 500 subscribers and over 25,000 video views. In not much over a month i believe.

My point being that if they were to now request help there would be a massive amount of people chomping at the bit to fund them. That is all ph34r and others were trying to tell you. You must keep an open mind with community projects like this, if perspective funders/customers/viewers are passionately advising you to do something a different way you have to go with the flow.

Anyway, i didn't want to labour the point but i think i sadly have. I will move on now, i'm glad you are making a demo and i'm interested to see how it goes.

Oh, a pet peeve of mine which will drive me away from funding and normally stop me reading(i persevered on this occasion): Syntax, grammar and spelling. Too many mistakes put me off very quickly. I'd suggest you check everything again so you don't put other people off.

I hope this all doesn't come off very negative. I sincerely wish for your project to go well, i'd certainly like to see someone replace Beasts of War(well, Darrell at least).

I have to say this reminds me of a bad episode of the Shark Tank.

To echo ph34r, the idea of using a Kickstart without anything to show just seems lame and somewhat exploitative.

In the non Kickstart world usually investors want to see potential entrepreneurs taking some risk. This Kickstart puts all the risk on the investors.

If I saw at least some sort of content. It doesn't even have to be video content.

If the OP would of started the Kickstart say this week after his first video I am sure people wouldn't have a problem.

Anyway my suggestion would be at least some sort of written sample of what we can expect from Geek Plug.

Emerett wrote:You just seem angry at this point, you are providing nothing constructive.

There are other people here that actually seem interested in a project like the one we are Kickstarting, so I will spend my time talking with them.

He is right though, if you are serious about this, a 600 dollar camera with a multi-zoom lense from target plus a tripod to mount it on is not that hard to come by. You don't have to rent a 1500 dollar plus camera to invest in your own business so as to show others that they are not just throwing money at you so you can use that. Put your own money into it, and people will come to.

I like this idea, but I don't particularly feel like giving money to it sight unseen. So far it seems like you guys have a pretty ambitious plan, and to be frank I have seen a lot of similar things sort of go nowhere or turn into something that I don't like. As ph34r and others have pointed out, if you were to post up a test video or two that would give me a better reason to contribute to your business.

I must agree, the request for donations, massive logos on everything, and even that massive signature, all while being completely unproven and without an iota of cachet, comes across as a tad obnoxious.