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Zweischneid wrote:Funny how quickly people forget. But yah, the game was virtually unplayable for two years or so thanks to Messrs Kelly (until they got some capable people for 5th and fixed Kelly's his botch).

They still have no truly capable people. All they have are people who suck slightly less than others. If they had capable writers then we wouldn't have books full of, let's call them, "suboptimal" unit choices
and strangely priced upgrades. GW's problem seems to be that they do not playtest properly, that is by actively trying to exploit ( and therefore find the flaws of ) their proposed rules.

Well I remember that Graham McNeill helped write the 4th Ed Space Marine Codex and GW actually looked at tournament stats to help determine which units were popular or not, so he couldve been a good alternative.

I'll be honest, as someone who works with[in] the 40k rules alot, the Codex writers do seem to make a lot of mistakes and have some noticeable infernal balance issues, but I do also think a largely good job is done on the whole, particularly if they don't get to choose the overall design ethos.

As for the OP, I have to say, even despite his reputation, I think Ward does the worst job on the whole. I think the GK Codex is a really poor job overall, fluff and rules. Although that said, the Necron 'dex does seem pretty good all-round.

Zweischneid wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:I don't think he has written a good Codex yet (and he's been trying for decades).

He co-wrote the Chaos 3.5 dex. That was a great book

You serious? Chaos 3.5 is the literal definition of broken (though, as you said, that's hardly Kelly's fault alone).

Why is that? Because there was a single build in which you got an extra heavy slot?

Durza wrote:
Why is that? Because there was a single build in which you got an extra heavy slot?

No, because the whole system was so cluttered and needlessly convoluted, that most people who didn't spend 6 hours a day to study the thing (perhaps because they played other armies) couldn't make sense of it, 99% of those that DID spend 6 hours a day to study the thing still got their lists wrong and all the confusion, ambivalence and clutter opend the door wide to abuse, obfuscation and cheats of all kind. Chaos 3.5 was the US Tax-Code of Codexes. It brought out the worst in the people as it lend itself to not win by "playing"; but by trying to blindside the opponent with the gazillion of cheap tricks and misuses it allowed.

There's a reason they swung back to "simple is better" after that. They may have gone a bit too far, but their was a reason (including rather vocal fan and player-base demand) to cut down all the loophole-prone madness that was 3.5 above all.

I know 3.5. is a divisive book, partly because the "lesser-is-better" philosophy that was a reaction 3.5. spawned nostalgia for the very mess that animated that later philosophy in the first place. Arguably, its "strength" of being written from the "fluff-end" of the spectrum is also the greatest "weakness" of 3.5.; as it wasn't thought through from the "game-end" of the spectrum. It was a treasure-drove for escapist chaos-fans to dive into full-front, it was an indecipherable nightmare for anyone trying to just game with 3.5. as one book among many in a broader system.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
...and possibly orks, but orks are so bland..

You are literally the first person I have ever seen write this sentence.

The reason the chaos dex was broken was due to the siren bomb and iron warriors. Other then that, it was a lot of fun. Especially considered to this POS. I dont recall eldar being broken, but skimmers were across the board

Brother SRM wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
...and possibly orks, but orks are so bland..

You are literally the first person I have ever seen write this sentence.

Miss the legal blood axe clan list, along with the other, not to mention when looted gear was actually...Y'know, looted.

I mean the 4th edition dex was a good few steps forward (Even if I preferred waaghs! giving double initiative rather than extra distance, as well as losing my big mek bodyguards), but it just doesn't seem truly good and orky yet.

rockerbikie wrote:

Castiel wrote:I wouldn't replace anyone, but I would have rules design done separately from the fluff. One person does rules, one does fluff and then we avoid fluff massacres.

When Graham McNeil was writing there wasn't any Fluff Massacres I am aware of. I think it's just Ward's writing style which is destroying the fluff. Maybe, they need to hire more writers so the Current writers don't have to rush their Codexes to release anymore.

Destroying the fluff? Hyperbole much?

Kaldor wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:

Castiel wrote:I wouldn't replace anyone, but I would have rules design done separately from the fluff. One person does rules, one does fluff and then we avoid fluff massacres.

When Graham McNeil was writing there wasn't any Fluff Massacres I am aware of. I think it's just Ward's writing style which is destroying the fluff. Maybe, they need to hire more writers so the Current writers don't have to rush their Codexes to release anymore.

Destroying the fluff? Hyperbole much?

Necrons have turned from the Undead Scourge of the Universe devouring all in it's path to TOMB KINGS IN SPAAAAACE!!!!!
Grey Knights have turned from Marines who fight demon to Elite Marines who can curbstomp Daemons without trying.
They turned Normal Marines from Self-respecting Marines to I WANNA BE ULTRA Marines.
The only semi-decent book he has written is Blood Angels.

rockerbikie wrote:Necrons have turned from the Undead Scourge of the Universe devouring all in it's path to TOMB KINGS IN SPAAAAACE!!!!!

So, they went from a bland universal threat to something with actual personality? I liked the old Necrons, but I would never have started a Necron army, because who wants to have yet another faceless army of Terminators? Net gain.

rockerbikie wrote:Grey Knights have turned from Marines who fight demon to Elite Marines who can curbstomp Daemons without trying.

And they are now a great stand-alone army, as opposed to a few units added into another army.

rockerbikie wrote:They turned Normal Marines from Self-respecting Marines to I WANNA BE ULTRA Marines.

Oh for... the whole 'spiritual leige' thing is only his opinion, it was never mentioned in any of the background material.

He's hardly destroyed the fluff.

The problem is the game development budget was reduced recently, so they are hardly likely to go back to putting 2 people onto a codex or playtesting them in any more detail.

Kaldor wrote:

Oh for... the whole 'spiritual leige' thing is only his opinion, it was never mentioned in any of the background material.
.

Yes it was mentioned. In the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex by Graham McNeill. Ward took it out of the Codex and later referenced it during an interview. And now it's suddenly Ward's invention. Strange, isn't it.

Having just had a friend start as a junior GD....

Personally, out of the current crop you have:

Cruddace - cannot write fluff. Just cannot. Awful writing style. Made TK the worst 8th ed book by far, as he doesnt realise that T8 is still wounded on 2s by cannon, and a 5+ armour save at best means monsters just fall over. Fail. In 40k land he destroyed nids, and made IG into the bland bland borefest that it is now, with woeful internal balance issues. "Bettered" only by....

Kelly - broke 4th edition, literally giving Eldar every exploit possible. From cheap rending to SMF holo'd falcons still shooting the gak out of you you could often go a game without killing anything eldar. WOeful internal balance in that book. Then we get Wolves. Again, attempting to break 5th with cheap, versatile missile spam and armed-with-everything-for-how much? Grey Hunters, banenr of cheese and WG to buff exactly what you want to, and not pay for it where you dont want it like other marine armies. Atrocious internal balance means blood and swift claws became pointless, WGBL is a joke, ditto iron and wolf priests, and everything devolves into a borefest. Yawn. Fairly poor fluff - wolf wolfborn? Really? Literally riding to battle on the mutated wolf forms of their former battle brothers? Shocking. Oh, and created Jaws, an inordinately stupid power, while giving wolves the most consistent psyker defence around, and the best if you take an SC. Then Dark Eldar - crap fluff, yet again awful internal balance (why would you take blood brides, when wyches are scoring and almost as good, and trueborn are just better at what you need - antimech? Why wouldnt you take a 10pt upgrade that doubles the numebr of wounds-everything-on-a 4+ shots your fast skimmer puts out? Archons are a waste of points for what they can do, etc) and led to the wave upone wave of 6+ venom, triple ravager (or double ravager fighter - never the bomber) lists that are about the place. Fire him, or at least beat him round the head with every useless unit he makes, until he gets the hint and gives us variety thats actually worth taking!

Ward - questionable fluff - although a lot of the haters dont have a clue what theyre talking about, frankly. SM codex was solid, even if Vulkan was a far greater multiplier than probably intended, but at least most units have a place. Then blood angels - apart from mephiston being far too good (but then he always has been) the book was pretty good, even if you can field an absurd number of dreadnoughts and the cheap as chips assault squads in razorbacks did make some one dimensional lists - but, again, most of the units have a place in a variety of armies. Fluff wise amusingly some haters blame him for mephistons back story, showing just how little they know of history, tedious "bro fisting necron" meme totally missing the point, and the over use of "blood" was tiriesome, but overall a solid book. Then Grey Knights - pretty well internally balanced, but poor external balance with again, cheap very effective light vehicle spam. Psyriflemen would be fairly costed IF you couldnt also take cheap scoring units in razorbacks - as you would have good anti light vehicle without also being able to take loads of light vehicles.. However again most units have a place, with the notable exception of all but one assassin (seriously, no scout on an eversor? Nothing?) and even he isnt that good. Then you have the fluff, which is where most people flip out - again, mostly unjustifiably so, when you get a sense of the past. Mordrak has very good fluff, Draigo is a microcosm of the imperium of man, the sisters being sacrificed harks back to original GK fluff, etc.

Overally - i'd fire cruddace and kelly, and get ward working with more writrs. Because the most fun codexes out there, with the most viable (as in, can produce a good army, if not uber competitive) codexes under his belt. Just dont mention fantasy daemons to anyone...

I will agree with your post, with the exception of the gray knights Psyflemen, they are just bad overall for how good they are even at their costs. What with being able to ignore shaken/stunned on a LD10 check, as well as twin linked S8 shots. Chaos has to pay a premium for ignoring shaken/stunned outright, and they don't get anything that good to compare with said damage!

I will disagree with most of your post, with the inclusion of the Grey Knights Psyflemen. That's a horribly imbalanced unit and considering Dreadnoughts are the only unit in the Codex (IIRC) that can access Autocannons, he must have known what he was doing when applying Psyammo to Autocannons and pricing them as such on Dreadnoughts.
Even despite his reputation, Mat Ward does write bad fluff. The Sanguinor, Draigo, Chronus and Grey Knights backgrounds are examples of this, even despite the internet/memes repeating these criticisms into excess and oblivion.

Just Dave wrote:I will disagree with most of your post, with the inclusion of the Grey Knights Psyflemen. That's a horribly imbalanced unit and considering Dreadnoughts are the only unit in the Codex (IIRC) that can access Autocannons, he must have known what he was doing when applying Psyammo to Autocannons and pricing them as such on Dreadnoughts.
Even despite his reputation, Mat Ward does write bad fluff. The Sanguinor, Draigo, Chronus and Grey Knights backgrounds are examples of this, even despite the internet/memes repeating these criticisms into excess and oblivion.

I disagree with your relative judgement. Are Psyflemen off? Sure, but far less so than Vendettas or Long Fangs. Could his characterization of Sanguinor, Draigo etc. been done better? Perhaps so. Still a far cry from the needlessly blunt break of continuity of the Swarmlord, the absurdness of Maugan Ra defending entire planets all on his own, the emo-wishfullfilment that is Vect or the ridiculousness of Mowgli-Space Wolves raised by Wolf-mothers.

Noone said Ward's perfect. He's just better then the other current writers.

I don't recall defending Vendettas, Long Fangs, Swarmlord et al., I do recall trying to highlight the flaws of Mat Ward as more than just internet hyperbole however.
Kudos on not actually mentioning Phil Kelly though.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Having just had a friend start as a junior GD....

Personally, out of the current crop you have:

Cruddace - cannot write fluff. Just cannot. Awful writing style. Made TK the worst 8th ed book by far, as he doesnt realise that T8 is still wounded on 2s by cannon, and a 5+ armour save at best means monsters just fall over.

Yes, because everything can get wounded by cannons on a 6+...oh wait, that's not true, because such units don't exist.
I don't understand why everyone keeps using cannons to point out a units weakness. Doesn't make that much sense really. I mean everything dies to cannons.
Now, if they were wounded by light infantry on a 2+ then yeah, they would be crappy. But they don't. Even S5 which will ignore their armor requires a 6+ to wound, and that's not including the necrotect who's hiding behind it, giving it 6+ regen or the Lore of Nehekara user giving it wounds back whilst at the same time giving it buffs.

TLDR : TK aren't that bad, and stop comparing monsters to a unit that's designed to kill monsters with ease. That's just silly.

Do agree with the points on the SW codex though. I think Kelly just got lazy and dropped the ball.

I standby my opinion that Ward is a terrible writer (though he can come up with some good concepts...which I guess is what happens when you fire a machine gun at a dart board) but his rules are getting a but better. The Necron codex I found is a lot more toned down and reasonable than the GK and BA codices, whilst still being fairly powerful.

I am not that familiar with Cruddace, though I do find his Tyranid and IG codices to be a bit...off. Tyranids seem to be fairly bland and fragile, with only a few viable (though uninteresting builds) and the amount of cheap yet powerful armor IG can field is silly.
...that in his video about the Empire, he came off as a bit of a tool. Just my opinion there; don't know why, I just didn't like him.

Just Dave wrote: trying to highlight the flaws of Mat Ward as more than just internet hyperbole

It's pretty much 100% hyperbole.

Kaldor wrote:

Just Dave wrote: trying to highlight the flaws of Mat Ward as more than just internet hyperbole

It's pretty much 100% hyperbole.

Which Codex would you like me to draw example from?

I like reading the fluff parts of the new Grey Knights, the Necrons, and the Ork books. Some of my favorite readings. The Chaos fluff was a little bland compared to these.

I'd like to replace them all with people who can write army lists that fit within the context of the actual rules they sell for their games. Tired of codecies full of special game breaking rules that just add clutter and annoyance to the game.

Would also be cool if the rules and the fluff had even a passing connection to each other as well anymore. The fluff used to be the inspiration for starting new armies. Now the inspiration comes from all the annoying special rules in a new codex instead, with the fluff added in as an after thought.

Skriker

Just Dave wrote:

Which Codex would you like me to draw example from?

Take your pick. There is nothing in Ward's books you won't find in equal measure in "non-Ward" books both current and old.

Kaldor wrote:

Just Dave wrote: trying to highlight the flaws of Mat Ward as more than just internet hyperbole

It's pretty much 100% hyperbole.

Your username to your post content irony ratio is off the charts. I've seen some bad background from other books but his definitely has to be the biggest load of fanwank I've seen in a long time.

To his credit, Ward definitely looked like he tried. But the problem is that Ward is a try-hard. He just forces stuff down your throat. It makes for crappy writing.

Zweischneid wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

Which Codex would you like me to draw example from?

Take your pick. There is nothing in Ward's books you won't find in equal measure in "non-Ward" books both current and old.

Again, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying that Kelly or Cruddace are perfect, but that Mat Ward's design flaws are more than just hyperbole.

That said, I do feel that Draigo has the worst background of any Codex to date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, 2 points I feel are also worth considering on the topic of Games-Workshop's Game Designers:

1 - Is the notion of internally-imbalanced or flawed Rules Books really that new? Is it just 4th-5th edition that has had these problems, or has it been present pretty-much throughout, but the more vocal internet may make it seem like an issue confined to the current writers only?

2 - The Games Designers do work in a team, so that flaws of one form or another may be attributed to the team as a whole, rather than just one person. However, trying to get people to go from criticising individual writers for being behind the problems with rules, to criticising the team, is a task beyond me.

Cthulus - Cannon arent designed to take down monsters "with ease", well not if you actually want people to ever use monsters that dont have a ward. 6+ regen does a lot against flaming attacks, or, quite frankly, any attack. Its not exactly "great"

TK are the worst of the 8th ed books, in terms of power, by a long way, because Robin really didnt get them or how 8th ed works. He's made quite a lot better job with Empire, but has still failed (griffon - please get some form of save, please!) in some key areas.

Just Dave - how is a psyrifleman, sans razorback spam, "horribly" imbalanced? I'll give you a hint: it isnt. The imbalance comes from the combination of cheap psyback spam AND psyriflemen.

5pts for a power that can be stopped, AND has a chance to fail AND has a chance to damage your vehicle vs 15pts for a power that always works? Not that bad a trade off when you compare what youre *actually* getting, not just amping the hyperbole, again.

Quite frankly Ward at least has a clue about making codexes fun and interesting, compared to boredom Cruddace and "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly

The problems have been present throughout.

Look at Alessio Cavatore's Skaven book, Pete Haines' CSM book, etc.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Just Dave - how is a psyrifleman, sans razorback spam, "horribly" imbalanced? I'll give you a hint: it isnt. The imbalance comes from the combination of cheap psyback spam AND psyriflemen.

5pts for a power that can be stopped, AND has a chance to fail AND has a chance to damage your vehicle vs 15pts for a power that always works? Not that bad a trade off when you compare what youre *actually* getting, not just amping the hyperbole, again.

Quite frankly Ward at least has a clue about making codexes fun and interesting, compared to boredom Cruddace and "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly

I'm not going to debate Cruddace and Kelly with you and Zweischneid; I don't have enough experience with Cruddace's works (though Crud-dace isn't a promising name) and I known Zweisch' at least seems to have a very set-in-stone opinion on Kelly's abilities.

Psyflemen are pretty imbalanced. 4 Twin-linked BS4 shots, at Strength 8, 48", on a AV12, fortitude walker, with little competition for FoC at 135pts is a steal. Compare what you get for similar prices: +10pts over a standard Psyfleman for Fortitude - arguably worth 10pts in itself - and increasing the 4 shots to Strength 8. People would still take Psyflemen at 150pts. Increasing 4 Shots from Strength 7 to Strength 8 is far too cheap at 5pts.
Psyammo is well priced at around 20pts for infantry, but far too cheap at around 5pts for vehicles, considering the changes that the strength boost on heavy weapons has. As I said before, considering Dread's are the only option in the 'dex with access to Autocannons(?), Mat Ward must have been aware of the affect 5pts Psyammo could have.

I would've though Strike Squads to actually be under-priced at 20pts, but it seems they're balanced, so kudos for Mr Ward there. Same situation with Terminators, and Paladins and Grand Masters are largely well balanced also.

Again, I'm not claiming Kelly or Cruddace to be perfect or Ward to be rubbish, what I'm trying to clarify is that Ward's issues are more than just hyperbole, his rules aren't that great, but his work also has a lot of good points and is largely well-balanced.

Just Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Just Dave - how is a psyrifleman, sans razorback spam, "horribly" imbalanced? I'll give you a hint: it isnt. The imbalance comes from the combination of cheap psyback spam AND psyriflemen.

5pts for a power that can be stopped, AND has a chance to fail AND has a chance to damage your vehicle vs 15pts for a power that always works? Not that bad a trade off when you compare what youre *actually* getting, not just amping the hyperbole, again.

Quite frankly Ward at least has a clue about making codexes fun and interesting, compared to boredom Cruddace and "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly

I'm not going to debate Cruddace and Kelly with you and Zweischneid; I don't have enough experience with Cruddace's works (though Crud-dace isn't a promising name) and I known Zweisch' at least seems to have a very set-in-stone opinion on Kelly's abilities.

Psyflemen are pretty imbalanced. 4 Twin-linked BS4 shots, at Strength 8, 48", on a AV12, fortitude walker, with little competition for FoC at 135pts is a steal. Compare what you get for similar prices: +10pts over a standard Psyfleman for Fortitude - arguably worth 10pts in itself - and increasing the 4 shots to Strength 8. People would still take Psyflemen at 150pts. Increasing 4 Shots from Strength 7 to Strength 8 is far too cheap at 5pts.
Psyammo is well priced at around 20pts for infantry, but far too cheap at around 5pts for vehicles, considering the changes that the strength boost on heavy weapons has. As I said before, considering Dread's are the only option in the 'dex with access to Autocannons(?), Mat Ward must have been aware of the affect 5pts Psyammo could have.

I would've though Strike Squads to actually be under-priced at 20pts, but it seems they're balanced, so kudos for Mr Ward there. Same situation with Terminators, and Paladins and Grand Masters are largely well balanced also.

Again, I'm not claiming Kelly or Cruddace to be perfect or Ward to be rubbish, what I'm trying to clarify is that Ward's issues are more than just hyperbole, his rules aren't that great, but his work also has a lot of good points and is largely well-balanced.

I have to agree with Just Dave here. There are imho and gaming experience, SEVERE pricing issues on a few key units in the Grey Knights dex. Psyflemen dreads being top of the pile. They truly are far to cheap for what they do, how hard they are to stop, and how little competition there is for them. Considering the amount of grey knights on the field at any given points level ( equal to my daemons army, an army that has... difficulty to put it mildly... dealing with Grey Knights) they have ran screaming and flailing away from the "small, elite army o bad aces"you would expect given that was the idea behind the dex.

Now looking at the power armor GKs is again where we run into pricing being off for the quality. And not from assault. Its from their shooting. Between the 2 psycannons the cheap as chips 5 man squads get, combined with rhinos and razorbacks, the horde of power armor is very nearly over powered in the shooting phase, and what survives has to then contend with the, most likely, str 5 power weapons, psyke-out, rad, and psycho broke grenades (seriously, this is the stupidest POS item in the game to date. WTF was the game designer thinking when they allowed this thing into the dex?)

And lets not forget the silly warpquake. I truly think the rule is horrid with the silly 24+" bubble of "feth your deepstrikers." If you reduce the distance to anything greater than 8 inches, the power is pretty much overpowered still, if you reduce it to 8" its a clunky range, if you reduce it to 7" or less the power is pointless and would never get used. So what should we do? INCLUDE IT AND MAKE IT 12"!!! Cause leaving it out would just be silly >.>

Now trying to say all of these powers are balanced by the chance to not have it work or hurt yourself is ridiculous. With lead 9 the odds of any power in question not going off are DRASTICALLY reduced to the point of being negligible and not worth pointing at as one con, to the MANY MANY pros.

And for the record, I like the Grey Knights codex, and love playing against it with daemons. BUT I still see these issues as glaring problems that require addressing in some form or another, (errata anyone?) And inspite of my great like of the codex, I must stand and call it as I see it. And that is unbalanced, under-coasted, and in need of touching up

I quite like Wards fluff. It embodies the epicness that marines are designed to be.

If they were not as epicly depicted I would not like it. I also think he gave the Necrons a face rather than a purpose. They needed it though I dislike the idea of Dynasties and different colours.

He is certainly better than Cruddace.