Finally actually read space marines codex. Thoughts and questions.

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**Dracos**

Ailaros wrote:
Dracos wrote:Drop pods are good, but its an all or none type strategy.

You know, I don't see why this need be. Why can't a razorspam army also throw a couple of dreads in drop pods and give your opponent a great deal to think about turn 1.

Yeah I should amend that for dreads. They can be a solid threat in a pod in their own right, not really requiring much direct support.

Infantry on the other hand really need to concentrate themselves to use pods effectively. If you drop in your deployment zone, you might as well leave the pod at home. If you drop only a couple tacticals, you are leaving them forward and kinda out to dry. That was more what I was refering to than the dreads, which seem find to drop in smaller numbers as a "termicide" style throw-away.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

Space Marine bikes are better because the addition of a bike mounted Captain makes them troops.

Compare 205 minimum points of meched Tactical squad to 185 points of bikes with dual melta and a multi-melta attack bike and you'll see why people like bikes.

Meanwhile Scout Bikers suffer from being Scouts riding bikes, ie heavy bolter bait.

Typhoon Speeders carry the longest range weapons in a Marine army, and not being open topped means they're a little tougher than Dark Eldar vehicles. Multi-melta Speeders are disposable anti tank guns.

**Joey**

Shooty termies are all-rounder units and as such have no place in the modern game. You pay through the nose for Storm Bolters, terminator armour and power fists, but if you wanted to assault them you'd rather have the 3+ save with TH/SS, and if you wanted them to be shooty...why the hell would you pay 40 points a model when you could get sternguard?

**Ailaros**

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Space Marine bikes are better because the addition of a bike mounted Captain makes them troops.

Compare 205 minimum points of meched Tactical squad to 185 points of bikes with dual melta and a multi-melta attack bike and you'll see why people like bikes.

Hmm, I do.

Were it not for the fact that bikes have a couple of serious problems (like not being able to get up into ruins, losing 1/6th of their models whenever their is terrain or terrain-like effects, etc.), I'd seriously consider an all-bike army.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Meanwhile Scout Bikers suffer from being Scouts riding bikes, ie heavy bolter bait.

But they also outflank and have a bunch of options. That's one main disadvantage for a bunch of perks.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Multi-melta Speeders are disposable anti tank guns.

Which is strange, as I don't see SM as being a "disposable" army. Certainly I can see the use of deepstriking speeders as suicide units, as they do this much cheaper than drop pod dreads, but still, that's sort of all they do, while other SM units have some real durability, and other options on the same unit, preventing it from being quite so niche.

Joey wrote:why the hell would you pay 40 points a model when you could get sternguard?

For the price of two squads of sternguard in a drop pod, you can afford three deepstriking termie squads. The sternguard may do quite a bit more up-front damage, but every time I've seen them used, they've been killed off in the next turn. Termies, on the other hand, may do less damage with their initial strike, but are certainly going to tough it out for at least another turn or two, meaning they apply their damage for longer

I'm not saying that one-shot-high-damage-suicide units are bad (indeed, I also like rough riders for guard), but that doesn't mean lower damage per turn but over more turns kind of killing power is bad either.

What you're asking is basically the same question a guard player asks when he queries "why take russes when there are other options?" Russes have half the killing power per point, but get AV14, which can often mean that they get more than twice the number of turns to shoot at stuff. It seems like termies are the same. Termies kill less when they arrive, but they're the killers that keep on killing. Plus, while termies are worse at taking positions, they're certainly a lot better at holding them.

**Joey**

Okay well 30 sternguard and a drop-pod vs termies in terms of damage output:

Sternguard vs MEQ (assuming the enemy MEQ is in cover which is a given)
12":60 shots, 40 hit, 33.3 wound, 11.1 dead.
24":5.6 dead

Termies vs MEQ:
12"-24":40 shots, 26.6 hit, 13.3 wound, 4.43 dead.

Sternguard vs TMC:
As above for MEQ

Termies vs TMC:
12"-24":40 shots, 26.6 hit, 4.43 wound, 1.47 wounds

Sternguard vs Orks:
12":60 shots, 40 hit, 20 wound and 20 dead
24":30 shots, 20 hit, 10 wound and 10 dead

Termies vs Orks:
12"-24":40 shots, 20 hit, 10 wound, 5 dead after cover.

So Sternguard obviously out-shoot termies. But at things that aren't MEQ they will be multiple times more efficient. Termies shooting at MEQs will do nothing, and shooting at horde will be a drop in the ocean. They can also do nothing from range against vehicles, whereas sternguard w/meltaguns will mean literally any unit that goes near them (or that it drop-pods near) will be smashed to dust.
Termies are just meh. Horde will ignore them since their damage output vs armour save is so low. Vehicles will move away from them to avoid being assaulted, MCs will simply avoid them.
Thinking about it now, most of the MEQ players I know aren't too bothered by Sternguard. But anyone who has T3 infantry and low armour saves, or Monsterous Creatures, curses them.
They may be hard to kill but that's not much use on a unit that's doing so little damage in the first place.
It's funny you mention the Russ actually. Single blast templates' unreliability coupled with high AV means it gets ignores in favour of weaker targets.

**Creeperman**

One final note on the usability of Combat Tactics to escape combat. Assuming no other combatants holding up the fight, the average chance of successfully falling back out of escort range of a consolidating enemy is 25.93%.

This assumes the opponent uses his full consolidation move to follow you as closely as possible, which you may be able to discourage with liberal application of heavy firepower. It is still a good number to keep in mind, in case you're in a situation with no immediate backup in range, to help you decide whether or not to take a gamble.

**Ailaros**

Joey wrote:Okay well 30 sternguard and a drop-pod vs termies in terms of damage output:

Actually, you've got to compare 20 sternguard to 15 termies. That way you're comparing equal points.

Against MEQ in cover, it's 11 dead marines for the sternguard (with 2 dead sternguard from burns) compared to the termies' 4 killed, but in the turn after the sternguard are much, much more easily gunned down with -1Sv and without the 5++ (and with only 3 more wounds to boot). Furthermore, if anyone gets into close combat with the sternguard, they're likely screwed, while the termies get aforementioned 2+/5++, and they just break out the power fists and start playing super punch out. Yeah, they really don't do as much up-front damage, but they really do stick around a lot longer. The survivability of the termies dilutes the up-front killing power, and the ability to kill in close combat can't be overlooked.

Once again, not to say sternguard are bad, but they're not auto-include over termies all the time.

Creeperman wrote:One final note on the usability of Combat Tactics to escape combat. Assuming no other combatants holding up the fight, the average chance of successfully falling back out of escort range of a consolidating enemy is 25.93%.

That's good to know. Thanks for the stat.

**Jihallah**

Ailaros wrote:@ devastators - It really does seem mostly jealousy. Looking just within the codex, devastators seem to have a fine role at a reasonable price. I could care less what units space wolves get.

Interesting comment about the speeder, though. That and the idea of taking a land raider instead. More expensive for one fewer gun, but comes with an assault ramp. Hmm. I don't see what the preds are doing better than devs, though. It seems with the exception of speeders (who do it a little better, but at greater cost), there doesn't really seem to be an alternative.

My argument against Dev's-

Asides from the fact that its a cheap way of getting firepower, I thought part of the Typhoons power was that it isn't a static firepower unit. For a comparable price I can get 5 Dev's with 4ML's+TLHB Razorback, or 2 Typhoons.
Both choices shoot 4 missiles per turn, one however can split fire. Both can add HB rounds when fragging infantry, the RB is twin linked, but the Typhoons have twice the shots- on average, the Typhoons will get you more hits per volley. But the real kicker is the mobility- the dev's MUST sit and fire. You can move out of LOS of my dev's and they can't fire. You move out of LOS of a Typhoon, its going to scoot into a cover denying position and still hit you.
The question of durability between these units is a harder one- A typhoon doesn't care as much as the Dev's about a volley of lasguns, but it cares much much more about a salvo of Lascannons than the dev's. However, Typhoons can scoot away from assaults, which combined with the ups and downs of an AV value makes me consider them more durable- they can move away from trouble, shooting and assaulting, and add to target saturation. Typhoons are a cheap and nasty way of getting solid flexible firepower in your army, AND they take up FA slots which generally aren't seen as important/competitive (assault squads/vanguard vets, anyone?........anyone ?

Even without the razorback- I'd rather the Typhoons. mobility, firepower, cheap price, adds to target saturation...can't go wrong.

But ailaros- I'm disappointed. I think you got over excited about the fluff and new stuff you read. I mean- scout bikes at BS4? Tigurius being awesome? Why would you ever take a rhino over a drop pod?.... =\

**Ailaros**

Well, as for devs v. speeders. They seem to have the same amount of firepower for the same price (assuming, of course, you're only talking about missile launchers. Things like multimeltas are a different story). The difference is that speeders gain the ability to deepstrike, and can more 6" and still fire, while the devastators are a fair bit more survivable. It seems strange to me that people decry scout bikers as being heavy bolter fodder, but then praise speeders, which are also heavy bolter fodder. Heck, speeders can be taken out by boltguns...

I get the deepstriking thing, and I can see if you're going for light armor saturation, but outside of this...?

Jihallah wrote:But ailaros- I'm disappointed. I think you got over excited about the fluff and new stuff you read. I mean- scout bikes at BS4? Tigurius being awesome? Why would you ever take a rhino over a drop pod?.... =\

Hah, I've caused plenty of nerdrage over the various new and interesting ways I've thought about guard stuff. I can't imagine opinions formed about space marine stuff would be different. People really like getting stuck in ruts with their thinking, and in this particular case I haven't even needed to force myself out of a rut, what with approaching with fresh eyes.

Certainly I'm not going to claim to be reinventing space marines, but there are certainly some things that it seems like either other people are missing, or I am.

If I've learned anything from my time playing with and talking about guard, it's that just because something is popular doesn't necessarily make it the best, and just because its decried doesn't necessarily mean its garbage.

**KplKeegan**

Ailaros wrote:If I've learned anything from my time playing with and talking about guard, it's that just because something is popular doesn't necessarily make it the best, and just because its decried doesn't necessarily mean its garbage.

So you find the Vanquisher above-garbage now, eh?

**Mannahnin**

Combat Tactics is solid gold, I'l absolutely give you that. Especially if you coordinate with other units (say, a cheap shooty dread?) to rescue your tacticals, allowing them to safely retreat from a losing combat without being caught by Sweeping Advance.

I'm also planning a list to make Tactical Terminators work, though not Deep Striking, and admittedly I run Blood Angels so I plan to make them more durable using FNP.

**Jihallah**

Hey, I said disappointed, not nerd raged

I think you'll change your opinions over time, based on my own MEQ experiences, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop you

And hey, I ain't in no rut! The other week I was advocating MM's on tac squads

just because something is popular doesn't necessarily make it the best, and just because its decried doesn't necessarily mean its garbage

Unless they are decried/popular for good reason. Tactical terminators are often decried, but can be quite solid if you don't expect them to take on everything. Tigurius is not awesome however

As for the rhino vs drop pod, after many games I have to consider them equal but different. A drop pod gets me where I need to go now, but I have no transport protection. A rhino keeps me protected and moving, but can leave me stranded, pinned or unluckily end up badly hurt. A rhino adds target saturation much much more than a drop pod does- but drop pods with locator bacons are a much higher priority than considered at first. I hybrid my transportation between pods and rhino's- after many games with both, I can't turn down my pair of rhino squads as a minimum, but pods are so incredibly A) useful and B) stylish/fluffy that I felt by not using them I wasn't squeezing all I could from MEQ Codices. I field 3 as a minimum in a hybrid list, to give options on what I'm going to drop and reserve.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

A lesson I have learned from chess. Every piece is disposable if losing it wins you the game.

Scout bikes have to operate within range of enemy fire. Land Speeders can operate 48" from the enemy which means they are protected from anything with shorter range. Their ability to gain 4+ cover by moving 12" while still being able to fire beats Scout Bikers 3+ cover save while being unable to fire.

BS3 means that anything other than twin-linked bolters is unreliable shooting. Land Speeders get two shot missile launchers at BS4. 90 points for Land Speeder Typhoons? Bargain.

Being able to outflank a substandard unit doesn't mean much. It's not like they can do anything when they get there. If I cared for outflanking I'd just take Kor'Sarro and get bikes carrying melta into the backfield.

Sure bikes have their weaknesses, but they're effective even at minimum sizes (5 models).

**Ailaros**

KplKeegan wrote:So you find the Vanquisher above-garbage now, eh?

I said "not necessarily", I'm not a straight-up contrarian.

Mannahnin wrote:I'm also planning a list to make Tactical Terminators work, though not Deep Striking, and admittedly I run Blood Angels so I plan to make them more durable using FNP.

I'd like to see this. Let me know what you can do with them.

Jihallah wrote:Hey, I said disappointed, not nerd raged

Nope, too late. Let the official record show that the actual events went like this:

Me: blah blah blah

Jihallah:

Me: woah, why you all gotta be up in the rage, bro?

Jihallah wrote:The other week I was advocating MM's on tac squads

I'm actually thinking of the MM, melta, combi-melta fist loadout, especially with pods. That's a lot of small squads with melta being able to target a lot of stuff all at once, or a few lotsa melta squads.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:A lesson I have learned from chess. Every piece is disposable if losing it wins you the game.

Sure, and I'm a foot guard player, so I'm well versed with the idea of sacrifice. Taking something as a suicide unit can be worth it if you set it up, right, and there can be rare times to sacrifice something important as a gambit.

That said, taking units that are fragile and saying "well, it may have died, but sometimes having my stuff killed is actually tactical genius, even if I didn't realise it beforehand". Sometimes fragile units are just fragile, and losing them is just plain old loss.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Being able to outflank a substandard unit doesn't mean much.

But, it's not really that bad. S6 side and rear attacks, charging from 18" off the sides of the board and powerfisting stuff, carrying a homer, or having the option to start on the board and turboboost, etc.

I agree with this statement when it's true. I'm not a big fan of penal legionnaires, for example, or outflanking scout sentinels, etc. but these scouts don't seem so bad.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Their ability to gain 4+ cover by moving 12"

Sure, but then you're not shooting. If my opponent is willing to give his vehicles a shaken result for free, without me even needing to do anything, well that's just fine. Plus, a cover save is still only a cover save. It doesn't make an AV10 unit invincible.

Furthermore, if you're setting up a scenario where the speeder is either moving OR shooting, well... what's the advantage over devestators? At least as far as this is concerned.

**Jihallah**

Ailaros wrote:
Jihallah wrote:Hey, I said disappointed, not nerd raged

Nope, too late. Let the official record show that the actual events went like this:

Me: blah blah blah

Jihallah:

Me: woah, why you all gotta be up in the rage, bro?

Jihallah wrote:The other week I was advocating MM's on tac squads

I'm actually thinking of the MM, melta, combi-melta fist loadout, especially with pods. That's a lot of small squads with melta being able to target a lot of stuff all at once, or a few lotsa melta squads.

I would complain if it were not a striking image or my germanic good looks

Remember the power of the MM rhino! Move 12, smoke, create bubbles of death!
A drop pod can do this, but the marines are on foot and exposed, and it doesn't add to target saturation. The opponent either engages you or doesn't, but either way you've still got your reliable movement and added protection of the rhino.

But do try the MM pod- since MM is seen as a joke on tac marines, you might have a few folks undervalue the threat of a MM sitting in their lines

**Mannahnin**

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Land Speeders can operate 48" from the enemy which means they are protected from anything with shorter range. Their ability to gain 4+ cover by moving 12" while still being able to fire....

Are you still playing 4th edition?

**imweasel**

Tac squads are meh. Losing ccw&bp really made them mediocre compared to other marine codices.

TH/SS termies are the bomb. Being able to take SQUADRONS of hb/tml speeders is very good.

Vulkan is a fantastic special character.

Cassius is almost criminal for 125pts.

Other than that, there isn't much in the codex that is awesome or that sucks.

**Dracos**

Cassius is another character i always forget about, but always love to rediscover. Criminal at 125 points covers it, i just wish there was a build in which he was better than nullzone... i mean a librarian.

**Crazyterran**

I can safely say that until now, I had no idea that Cassius had T6.

Maybe I'll take him to lead a dedicated counter assault unit. Or even the Sternguard, since, he uses Hellfire rounds, just like them.

Also, this thread has convinced me even more to drop my razorbacks and go with TML Speeders. TL LC/AC < more missiles.

**Jihallah**

Crazyterran wrote:
Also, this thread has convinced me even more to drop my razorbacks and go with TML Speeders. TL LC/AC < more missiles.

The internet has everyone so worked up on MM/HF speeders because "its fast melta" (ignoring all the OTHER melta you can/will bring) and "it meshes so good with vulkan" (but what if i don't play vulkan?)

Typhoons are godly godly flexible cheap mobile firepower. Godly!

imweasel wrote:Tac squads are meh. Losing ccw&bp really made them mediocre compared to other marine codices.

Call the Waaaaaambulance! Someone is crying about Tac squads being crap! Crap compared to your other choice, scouts? or crap vs Ass marines, CSM, or GH?

Everyone loves GH over tacs, so I'm going to quote from 3++ here because this sums up the argument in an excellent fashion, and explains why you are a gakker for comparing apples to oranges. Enjoy `

The argument over Space Wolves being down-right better than Vanilla Marines cropped up the first time 15 point Grey Hunters were spotted. Whilst Space Wolves may be better than Vanilla Marines overall, the difference is marginal and each army ultimately works differently. This is where arguments saying Space Wolves are better Vanilla Marines can often come un-stuck - apples and oranges are difficult to compare and determine which is 'the best.' Let's look at the basic units for each codex and look at why.

Grey Hunters are cheaper, better in combat, can take two special weapons and have more upgrade options (generally combat focused such as Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, combat weapon, etc.). Tacticals are more expensive, come with Ld9 Sergeants standard, can only take a special and heavy at 10-strong squads, have combat tactics, combat squads and suck in combat. On the face of things very, very different and within each army, they do a very nice job. Grey Hunters have a lot more flexibility since they can access upgrades on 5-strong units. Tacticals are shoe-horned into running inefficient 5-strong units without special/heavy weapons or need to run full squads to get these benefits. Add in that Grey Hunters are much better in close ranged firefights with two special weapons, two close combat weapons and counter-attack and you can see why they and Space Wolves in general, are considered far superior to Tacticals and Vanilla Marines.

However, this fits the style of play Space Wolves generally encourage. It's much more aggressive with increased combat ability across the army and what Grey Hunters lack, heavy weapons, combat tactics, Ld9, is what make Tacticals good. If Grey Hunters want Ld9 they have to lose an Elite slot and their second special weapon for a one-shot combi weapon. On MSU squads this is fine as you aren't looking for that second special weapon regardless but for larger squads and overall army design, this is a mild limitation. You of course don't need to go for Ld9 but the 10% difference in pass/fail can be pretty significant and will come up often enough. Back to Tacticals...by having heavy weapon options along with their boltguns, they play a much more midfield shooting role and combat tactics supports this. Sure in comparison to Grey Hunters they suck in combat but they are more capable of avoiding it and impacting the battlefield from afar. This is a premise Space Marines need to work their lists around and is very different from Space Wolves.

Put it this way. Grey Hunters as multiple squads across the whole army cannot engage in ranged firefights. Yes you can use a plasma gun special weapon, 24" rapid fire range, Rune Priests and Wolf Guard with Cyclone Missile launchers but that becomes very inefficient and very expensive. In the end, Grey Hunters excel in your opponent's face. Not only are they decent in combat but that's where their primary shooting firepower is. Tacticals on the other hand have that ranged weapon option. It's one gun sure but they back that up with a reliable and solid scoring presence in midfield along with the boltguns. They are much worse in combat than Grey Hunters but are less likely to be in your opponent's face because they do not belong there. These two very different roles are often what define the two different armies and how they operate on the tabletop.

**Ailaros**

Jihallah wrote:Typhoons are godly godly flexible cheap mobile firepower. Godly!

So, I really don't want to disparage speeders too much here.

My complaint isn't that speeders are awful, so much as I disagree with what I see as overestimation. I look at speeders and compare them to devastators and predators and I don't see anything special. They really look roughly the same for the price, just with different styles. They put out roughly the same power per point, but preds gain much better armor, speeders gain deepstrike, and devs gain the durability of infantry models in cover (as well as the ability to assault. A 10x dev squad is still a 10x marine squad, which is still better at CC than a bunch of stuff, especially if you shoot them up first).

Good? Perhaps. Godly? I really, really don't see it.

Jihallah wrote:
imweasel wrote:Tac squads are meh. Losing ccw&bp really made them mediocre compared to other marine codices.

Call the Waaaaaambulance! Someone is crying about Tac squads being crap! Crap compared to your other choice, scouts? or crap vs Ass marines, CSM, or GH?

etc.

Yeah, I've got short patience for this. Play some non-power-armor armies and get some perspective.

Plus, judging something solely by its kit while ignoring things like its special rules is missing things badly.

Dracos wrote:Cassius is another character i always forget about, but always love to rediscover. Criminal at 125 points covers it

T6, but only W2. He's a couple of power fist attacks away from junked, plus, he curses the squad with fearless.

A regular captain with a fist gains +1WS, +1BS, +1W, +1A and a fair amount more strength with those attacks (or he could take a relic blade and keep the initiative). Don't see what cassius really chips in here. I mean, I guess if you're taking assault termies, but otherwise...

**Crazyterran**

Infernus, Hellfire Rounds, Reroll attacks to hit on the charge.

Cassius makes a good counter assault unit with a squad of tactical marines. I wouldn't run him with Terminators because he's less durable and can't take Termie Armor.

And all of the non-captain SM heroes have 2W. Doesn't stop people from taking Librarians over Captains all the time.

Captains are a decent assault unit in a codex that doesn't want to assault, and he provides nothing special anymore. If he still had the ability like he did in the previous codex to share his LD with units around him, he might be more worth it. But, since he has no special abilities...

Librarians would always be my #1 choice, but Cassius for some back up with the Sternguard or whatever is a good #2 hero down the line, especially if you don't have the points to drop 265 on Calgar.

Also, if you give the Captain a relic blade, Cassius will have the same # of attacks, since he has a Bolt Pistol / Crozius that he can use in close combat.

EDIT:

Also, I used to run 2 MM/HF Speeders, but after thinking about it, they haven't really done anything. If I do face a Land Raider, I can immobilize it/stun it to death, and if i don't, having a MM against most things isn't a big deal - AV 14 isn't in huge abundance. The only thing other than land raiders I can think of is Monoliths and the front of a Battlewagon.

So, I really don't want to disparage speeders too much here.

My complaint isn't that speeders are awful, so much as I disagree with what I see as overestimation. I look at speeders and compare them to devastators and predators and I don't see anything special. They really look roughly the same for the price, just with different styles. They put out roughly the same power per point, but preds gain much better armor, speeders gain deepstrike, and devs gain the durability of infantry models in cover (as well as the ability to assault. A 10x dev squad is still a 10x marine squad, which is still better at CC than a bunch of stuff, especially if you shoot them up first).

Good? Perhaps. Godly? I really, really don't see it.

10x Devastator Squad costs your firstborn son. for only 40 more points, you can get a extra 2 Missile Launchers and have them be able to move and fire. Move 12" and fire at tanks, move 12" and fire it's HB and Frag Missiles at Hordes. It's something that Space Marines don't really have - mobile firepower.

Sure, Predators are cheaper. In fact, you should probably take a predator instead, it's Autocannon/HB are good for dealing with most things. However, Landspeeders are a Fast Attack choice; they almost give you 6 Heavy Support slots if you use the Speeders in this form, and they are much more mobile. A Predator can't fire all of it's weapons if it moves, which makes it static. I'd almost call Vindicators better mobile fire bases than Predators, since it only has one weapon you'd want to fire. (of course, if you have a predator model vs a vindicator model, probably take the Predator.

)

If Devastator's Heavy Weapons where cheaper, im sure more people would be all over that like a fat kid on cake. But, as they are now, they are the most expensive Heavy Support choice if you bulk them up.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

Playing Space Marines against later, more efficient armies is about maximizing your bang for your buck. Since they don't compare in assault to Space Wolves, Blood Angels and especially Grey Knights, you're left with shooting. That means you want to maximize the shooting power in each slot.

What units provide the most firepower for the points in each slot?

Elites: dreadnoughts with two twin-linked autocannon. 125 points gives you 4 twin-linked strength 7 shots on a mobile armour 12 chassis. For 150 points you can take a multi-melta/heavy flamer dreadnought in a drop pod which makes a useful disruption unit. A squad of Sternguard provide a ride for your infantry HQ).

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Typhoons. A 2 shot missile launcher and a heavy bolter on a fast vehicle for 90 points is very good value. Multi-melta or multi-melta/heavy flamer provide anti armour, although if you're using bikes as troops you'll have plenty of fast melta anyway. Sure, they're made of tissue paper but they outrange many things and a non open-topped vehicle still has 5th edition vehicle survivability even with armour 10.

In heavy support there's really only one option, the humble Predator. 85 points gives you 8 anti infantry/light vehicle shots. A few more give you the autolas, much loved by Blood Angel players but probably less useful for Codex Marines lacking the overcharged engines that allow the Angels to move 6" and fire everything.

The only real variety is in troops and the variation there is a choice between two Rhino mounted tactical squads, a single Rhino mounted Tactical squad and a Scout squad led by Telion, or if you take a biker Captain you can get bikes. If you don't take a bike Captain then your HQ will be a Librarian or possibly Vulkan .

Variations from this, pure bikes (my favourite, no I haven't fielded a Land Speeder since 4th edition), Vulkan and 10 thunder hammer terminators squeezed into two Redeemers or Crusaders (dual rock, vulnerable to having their rides shot away) and Shrike and infiltrating fleet terminators (a novelty build but fleet terminators are much scarier than the normal kind and after infiltrating they could be in combat turn one).

**CaptainJay**

Ailaros wrote:
CaptainJay wrote:Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Well, it's 48" and 36" when you add in the bike's movement. Plus, outflanking means side and rear shots and you can always charge in with a power fist. right after. Seems nifty, even without also using the scout's ability to bring stuff in via teleporting.

Perhaps not the best unit in the world in all builds, but I'm still kind of surprised that I've basically never seen them before, especially since they seem generally better than regular SM bikes.

Nope, you only move 12" and fire so incorporating movement it's 3 shots at 36" or 6 at 24". As I said I run them as a disruption unit, I aim to get multi-assaults with them, the scouts going into infantry and the PF going onto a vehicle if possible, which 'fingers crossed' takes out a tank and protects them from fire next turn. As mentioned the 4+ save makes them very fragile if they get shot at. Sadly I don't have the points for grenade launchers (I will try them one day), but as aforementioned I think 1.5 Str6 hits aren't going to do much to a tank, and on the flipside, if you do destroy a tank the bikes are then going to evaporate from return fire.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:A lesson I have learned from chess. Every piece is disposable if losing it wins you the game.

Scout bikes have to operate within range of enemy fire. Land Speeders can operate 48" from the enemy which means they are protected from anything with shorter range. Their ability to gain 4+ cover by moving 12" while still being able to fire beats Scout Bikers 3+ cover save while being unable to fire.

BS3 means that anything other than twin-linked bolters is unreliable shooting. Land Speeders get two shot missile launchers at BS4. 90 points for Land Speeder Typhoons? Bargain.

Being able to outflank a substandard unit doesn't mean much. It's not like they can do anything when they get there. If I cared for outflanking I'd just take Kor'Sarro and get bikes carrying melta into the backfield.

Sure bikes have their weaknesses, but they're effective even at minimum sizes (5 models).

As before scout bikers are fragile, but I've reasonable success with them (mainly tying up units, or picking on targets weaker than them). Bikes get 3+ cover from going more than 18", plus you can go to ground, fail you're morale (if you're going to lose a model) and regroup next turn if needed. Speeders get 4+ from going more than 12" but are then destroyed on a 4+ if any pen's make it through your cover save.

I'm not denying Typhoons are a bargain, they definitely are (though rifleman love shooting at them).

**Flavius Infernus**

Ailaros wrote:

It seems like the only way to really appreciate the abilities of speeders is to grossly overestimate what AV10 is capable of withstanding. Same for rhinos. If guard players are growing concerned over the lack of staying power of AV12 in a leafblower list, I can't see how lighter vehicles would be anything but much worse.

I've played enough games against dark eldar that devolved into a turkey shoot (even with flickerfields) to place too much trust in the staying power of a couple of light vehicles. An all razorspam army with some speeders, perhaps, but taking a handful of them seems like a great way to throw away points into enemy autocannon fire, etc.

Open-topped makes less difference than the fact that Dark Eldar vehicles don't operate in squadrons. You shoot at three DE skimmers and kill two, you get 2 KPs. You shoot at a squadron of 3 speeders and kill 2, you score 0 KP (leaving the other one to zoom around the board out of LoS and deny you that one KP).

Also hit allocation in a squadron increases survivability a lot. Those high str, long-range shots come in small volleys that only score 1 or 2 hits at a time. With solo vehicles like DE, you shake one and move on to the next one. But in squadrons that first damaging shot always goes on the shaken, damaged vehicle in the squadron, leaving the other one(s) to move and fire as normal.

How can it be a "gross overestimation" when I'm talking out of my own direct experience here? I'm not estimating, I'm recalling.

**Kevlar**

I don't see how you can go wrong with multi-melta speeders especially with Vulkan. Immense threat range, or deep strike suicide. They will kill off much more than what they cost against any mech list. Which is any competitive list..

**Jihallah**

Ailaros wrote:
Jihallah wrote:Typhoons are godly godly flexible cheap mobile firepower. Godly!

So, I really don't want to disparage speeders too much here.

My complaint isn't that speeders are awful, so much as I disagree with what I see as overestimation. I look at speeders and compare them to devastators and predators and I don't see anything special. They really look roughly the same for the price, just with different styles. They put out roughly the same power per point, but preds gain much better armor, speeders gain deepstrike, and devs gain the durability of infantry models in cover (as well as the ability to assault. A 10x dev squad is still a 10x marine squad, which is still better at CC than a bunch of stuff, especially if you shoot them up first).

Good? Perhaps. Godly? I really, really don't see it.

What are you going to purchase with your FA options? If your going for fast melta, bikes or speeders are fairly equal. Ass marines and bikers are a bit flopish(unless herr kapitan is on a bike), vanguard vets a little less so, typhoons are funky if you have a scout unit... A typhoon you can take to any party and your sorted. The moments I like typhoons is when I make a shooty list and go "hmmm my elite slots are pretty shooty, my HS is pretty shooty, my troops have been given some good shooty, but I wish there was more shooty I could fit in....

...glorious, glorious 90p Typhoons! that will squeeze more firepower into my salvos for a ridiculous price! Glorious!"

**Kingsley**

Ailaros wrote:For 115 points apiece, you can get 2x 5-man space marine squads with 2x multimeltas apiece (one with a signum). I can't think of another codex that can do anything even vaguely similar.

Well, Codex: Space Marines can also get a squadron of 2 Attack Bikes with multi-meltas for 100 points, which is a wash on survivability (4 T5 3+ wounds with the prospect of boost > 5 T4 3+ wounds, but the Attack Bikes are vulnerable to Instant Death) and gains substantial mobility. If Devs were scoring, the option you discuss might be worth taking, but as it stands I don't think it's worth it, especially since mobility is so useful on multi-meltas.

**Flavius Infernus**

I've never used attack bikes personally (just haven't had time to put together the models), but they do have the advantage of being able to completely hide behind a rhino/razorback, especially when the tank is turned sideways. The best that a dread or speeder can do is get a cover save from standing behind the rhino/razor.

**Joey**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Also hit allocation in a squadron increases survivability a lot.

No, hit allocation makes a squadron of n as strong as an invidividual.
Say your squadroned Speeders get shot at by MC-Devs, they score three penetrating hits. Suddenly ALL THREE of your speeders have to take a penetrating hit. From one volley.
Squadronning any vehicle ever is nearly always a terrible idea.