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So, any of these list would have trouble if you had to play on your opponent's terms. Thankfully drop pods, outflanking bikes, and assault ramp land raiders seriously reduce this. They're definitely "on your terms" kinds of armies.

In this case, if there's a nasty CC unit, you just don't drop or drive near it. Conversely, you could focus your killing power on it and eliminate it before it becomes a real threat. Death company in a stormraven may look scary, but if you're able to show up and shoot your ENTIRE ARMY at it, the remnants certainly won't be. Plus, in the case of the bikes, you could basically always make sure that, unless they have jump packs of their own, they'll always be just out of range of close combat.

Also, all three armies can use CTATSNKF.

labmouse42 wrote:The biggest is 8 + MM bike for a total of 10 marines, with 9 models on the board.

oops as mentioned, first time reading it.

On the plus side, that means 150 extra points! another attack bike squad and some decent upgrades for the command squad.

Bike armies take an extra advantage of Combat Tactics. Since your falling back 3d6", its much easier to break out of consolidation range. Your average fallback will be 10.5 inches to your opponents 3.5 inch consolidation.

I use this quite often in my bike army games, and find it very effective.
One note though, if you take Kahn, you lose the combat tactics. That's a pretty significant hit.

Oh, right. Replace him with a cap on a bike then.

Technically it is still 10-man because there are two marines on each attack bike.

Captains on a bike are cheaper than Khan, too.

Bike Captain - Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Bike, Artificer Armor - 195

Khan - Moondrakken - 205

For 10 less points, you get 2+/3++. Lose ID on your power weapon, but instead you get S6.

EDIT:

If you want to make it a bit more expensive, you can also throw on a melta bomb and hellfire rounds, to make him on his bike even more 'fun' for the enemy. (it'd make it 210 pts, only 5 more than Khan.)

I think this is where I would disagree with the attack bikes in your list. I prefer to run my bike lists with:

Captain not Khan
5-6 marine bike squads (w 2 MG or PG and 1 AB wMM or HB respectively)
Land speeders

I completely understand your absolute hatred for speeders. However, in this list, they complement the bikes much better than a predator or devastator squad would. The name of this game is mobility and that is where the speeders excel.

I am still working on my white scars army, but I quickly found out that I prefer the captain over Khan. While outflanking and his special rules for his unit are nice, for 195 points, I can get a captain, bike, relic blade, artificer armor, and storm shield. That is a pretty nasty 2+/3+ IC floating around. And, the combat tactics is huge. While it helps in CC, falling back in your opponents shooting phase and denying the assault is too much to pass up. Especially in an army that is focused on picking and choosing which battles it wants to get sucked into.

You have made it obviously clear that you prefer heavily armored vehicles. That is great and there is nothing wrong with it. But, for those of whose who choose to play themed or fluff based armies, Land Speeders and Land Speeder squadrons have their place.

labmouse42 wrote:Bike armies take an extra advantage of Combat Tactics. Since your falling back 3d6", its much easier to break out of consolidation range. Your average fallback will be 10.5 inches to your opponents 3.5 inch consolidation.

I use this quite often in my bike army games, and find it very effective.
One note though, if you take Kahn, you lose the combat tactics. That's a pretty significant hit.

And the average chance of breaking out of escort range on 3d6 is 66.44% - far better than trying it on foot. Having said that, bike squads are expensive, and usually are taken in smaller sizes, so getting one smashed or shot up badly enough to even have to take the morale test is already a fairly massive loss to you in terms of model count and force proportion. It's tempting to use relentless to double-tap with TL bolters, charge a unit, and hope to CT out next turn rather than eat the charge yourself, but you're probably better served to instead move back outside of 12" and just take a single shot from a safe range.

Crazyterran wrote:
EDIT:

If you want to make it a bit more expensive, you can also throw on a melta bomb and hellfire rounds, to make him on his bike even more 'fun' for the enemy. (it'd make it 210 pts, only 5 more than Khan.)

I want to toy around with auxilliary grenade launcher for my captain. It can fire with your bolters and is only 10 (15?) points?

Creeperman wrote:And the average chance of breaking out of escort range on 3d6 is 66.44% - far better than trying it on foot. Having said that, bike squads are expensive, and usually are taken in smaller sizes, so getting one smashed or shot up badly enough to even have to take the morale test is already a fairly massive loss to you in terms of model count and force proportion. It's tempting to use relentless to double-tap with TL bolters, charge a unit, and hope to CT out next turn rather than eat the charge yourself, but you're probably better served to instead move back outside of 12" and just take a single shot from a safe range.

Creeperman -- this is where theoryhammer and playhammer diverge. I have played a bike army for over 2 years now and understand the synergy very well.

Sitting back and plinking away over 12" of range just does not bring enough firepower to bear to justify the cost of the bikes. I tried this strategy when I started my bike list and found few instances where it was effective. The best way to describe this would be "In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory. In practice, there is"

Bikes real strength comes when you are within 12" and double tapping on bolters and plasma guns. I field my squads 6 bikes strong, with 2 PG and 1 MM each, giving each squad 5 AP2/1 shots and 8 TL bolter dice. I play my bikes in pairs so I use 2 of such squads on one target. Often I find there wlll be 1 or 2 models left in the target, and I assault them to 'seal the deal' with PF sergeants.
This method of playing bikes is an aggressive way of play. You move forward, hammer your target, and then move out quickly. The goal is to be turbo-boosting every turn your not 'sealing the deal'. After much playtesting, I have found this to be the most effective method of playing bikes.

I go into more detail in a post here. I will add a strategy section when I get some spare time this week.

Wait, Dedicated Transports give KPs?

I've been wrong all along?

Oh nooooo.

Also, I might use some of that when I make my own biker army. 6th Company Ultramarines, goooo!

Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that off KP statement.

As for the bikes, they actually remind me of mechvets for guard. 2 special weapons and a heavy that can move 12" and still fire. That gives plasma guns an awful lot of reach. I suppose in order to get the absolute most out of bikes, your strategy needs to be to attack somewhere and then have your opponent react, and then have you attack somewhere completely different, in a place where your opponents' reaction opened up weaknesses.

As for attack bikes vs. speeders in a bike list, yeah, speeders would work fine (especially a drop and pop type), but in this case speeders and attack bikes are so very similar, and one of them is WAY fluffier in an all-bike army than the other...

Also, thinking back on the pod list, it would be entirely possible at 1850 to have 5 drop podding tooled up tac squads along with a three dropping dreads and cato. Three dreads and 50 battle brothers constitutes a power armor foot horde in my book. A foot horde that can teleport onto the battlefield in a massive alpha strike...

<text redacted; if you have to resort to "fixing" other posters' remarks, it's a good sign that your argument is flawed, and you're about to break one of Dakka's posting rules; don't do it again. --Janthkin>

labmouse42 wrote:Creeperman -- this is where theoryhammer and playhammer diverge. I have played a bike army for over 2 years now and understand the synergy very well.

Sitting back and plinking away over 12" of range just does not bring enough firepower to bear to justify the cost of the bikes. I tried this strategy when I started my bike list and found few instances where it was effective. The best way to describe this would be "In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory. In practice, there is"

Bikes real strength comes when you are within 12" and double tapping on bolters and plasma guns. I field my squads 6 bikes strong, with 2 PG and 1 MM each, giving each squad 5 AP2/1 shots and 8 TL bolter dice. I play my bikes in pairs so I use 2 of such squads on one target. Often I find there wlll be 1 or 2 models left in the target, and I assault them to 'seal the deal' with PF sergeants.
This method of playing bikes is an aggressive way of play. You move forward, hammer your target, and then move out quickly. The goal is to be turbo-boosting every turn your not 'sealing the deal'. After much playtesting, I have found this to be the most effective method of playing bikes.

I go into more detail in a post here. I will add a strategy section when I get some spare time this week.

I will concede that there are times to sound the charge and go for broke with bikes, but you have to be careful with it. Point-for-point, each biker lost is about a 40 point deficit since you have very few bullet-catchers to soak up AP3 or power wounds, and may be forced to take special weapon casualties early on. I would never throw a 245-point biker squad like the one you described into an equal value of, say, Chaos Marines because they'd bounce a fair number of bolter and CC wounds and bury me in return CC attacks due to greater numbers. Having said that, if I had two such squads to send I would expect better results, but that would be true of almost any 2:1 point ratio matchup, and isn't really indicative of any unit superiority save simple attrition.

I shot Abaddon to death the other day. Well down to his last wound before another player rolled up with Mephiston and plasma pistolled him to death. So many ones.

Creeperman wrote:I would never throw a 245-point biker squad like the one you described into an equal value of, say, Chaos Marines because they'd bounce a fair number of bolter and CC wounds and bury me in return CC attacks due to greater numbers. Having said that, if I had two such squads to send I would expect better results, but that would be true of almost any 2:1 point ratio matchup, and isn't really indicative of any unit superiority save simple attrition.

* In the first case, the real difference is if the CSM has a PF or not. T5/3+ save is surprisingly hard to deal with. Even with the extra attack, each CSM attack has a 1/18 chance of actually wounding a biker. Given that the CSM probably lost 4 models from the shooting, they don't really have enough attacks to bring down the bikes unless they have a PF. Either way though, it bogs down the bikes, which is not what you want as a bike army.

* The methodology of how you can footprint bikes, in addition to their movement capacity is what makes getting 2:1 ratios so easy. Take the picture below. I had the capacity to easily bring 4 squads of special/heavy weapons within range of that stormchicken without breaking a sweat. The key is the congo-line, as it maximizes your ability to deliver output without leaving yourself vulnerable for templates.


* As previously mentioned, if your not 'sealing the deal' with a bike army, you should be spending every turn turbo-boosting. The fact that opponents can take their long fangs and target your bikes can be very dangerous if your not getting a good cover save. Getting that 3+ cover save means that your much more resilient to the long fangs. This helps to mitigate the effects of long range heavy weapons. The painful exception to this are scatter laser war walkers and riflemen dreads (psydreads or regular), as they do the job through sheer volume of required saves.

* One other thing the bikes have to help make them more durable is the extra wound on the MM bike. Any wound that wont ID the bike should go on the attack bike if its uninjured. This gives your 6 man squad a total of 7 wounds. At a T5, I believe this is just as durable vs bolter fire as 10 T4 marines. (And less durable vs psycannons and more durable vs STR 3)

labmouse42 wrote:

Classy.

I'm still not 100% on board with bikes, personally, but I do have extra props for a person who can field a competitive army that looks so damn fine on the table. In this case it's like

Him: Yes, well I brought a carefully balanced GK list that was specifically designed to-

You: I've got 40 bikes. Your argument is invalid. BIKESMASH!

Creeperman wrote:Point-for-point, each biker lost is about a 40 point deficit ... if I had two such squads to send I would expect better results, but that would be true of almost any 2:1 point ratio matchup, and isn't really indicative of any unit superiority save simple attrition.

As mentioned, bikes are a force concentration army. The point isn't that bikes are good in a 1v1 fair fight. The point is that bikes are fast enough to make sure that it's never a fair fight. A pair of 1v1's quickly becomes a 2v1 with the opponent's other unit left to twist. If a bike player is always fighting fair fights, they're doing something wrong.

Jihallah wrote: I want to vs some of those 1500p lists
So I can dismantle them and tell you how many Typhoons to take...

A game featuring a fast, speeder-heavy SM army against a fast all-bike SM army would be awesome. The only marine v. marine game that I think could be cooler would be a drop pod v. drop pod game. One huge scrum in the middle, drop pods raining down everywhere, an utter orgy of chaos and violence. I don't think it would even matter who won, it would just be too cool to watch.

labmouse42 wrote:*In the first case, the real difference is if the CSM has a PF or not. T5/3+ save is surprisingly hard to deal with. Even with the extra attack, each CSM attack has a 1/18 chance of actually wounding a biker. Given that the CSM probably lost 4 models from the shooting, they don't really have enough attacks to bring down the bikes unless they have a PF. Either way though, it bogs down the bikes, which is not what you want as a bike army.

* The methodology of how you can footprint bikes, in addition to their movement capacity is what makes getting 2:1 ratios so easy. Take the picture below. I had the capacity to easily bring 4 squads of special/heavy weapons within range of that stormchicken without breaking a sweat. The key is the congo-line, as it maximizes your ability to deliver output without leaving yourself vulnerable for templates.

I'm not sure I can remember the last time I saw a marine squad without a fist. Regardless, my point was made. C:SM bikes are shooting units (excepting of course tooled-up command squads), and cannot afford to carelessly charge into bad matchups. Creating good matchups is the strength of most fast-attack units in general, and these should of course be exploited ruthlessly.

labmouse42 wrote:* As previously mentioned, if your not 'sealing the deal' with a bike army, you should be spending every turn turbo-boosting. The fact that opponents can take their long fangs and target your bikes can be very dangerous if your not getting a good cover save. Getting that 3+ cover save means that your much more resilient to the long fangs. This helps to mitigate the effects of long range heavy weapons. The painful exception to this are scatter laser war walkers and riflemen dreads (psydreads or regular), as they do the job through sheer volume of required saves.

This is something else I'm going to (conditionally) quibble with. While you're correct that you want to spend most of your time turbo-boosting or in the (relative) safety of a lopsided assault, there are some circumstances which warrant standing off and blazing away instead, such as if difficult terrain separates you and a dangerous assault unit or in the case of a unit with the slow and purposeless rule. Whether or not to do this of course depends on tactical positioning and the overall situation.

labmouse42 wrote:* One other thing the bikes have to help make them more durable is the extra wound on the MM bike. Any wound that wont ID the bike should go on the attack bike if its uninjured. This gives your 6 man squad a total of 7 wounds. At a T5, I believe this is just as durable vs bolter fire as 10 T4 marines. (And less durable vs psycannons and more durable vs STR 3)

Wound allocation is one of the finer points of 5th edition gameplay, but it's a shame codex marines have so few multi-wound units capable of doing it. Attack bike squadrons can do this as well, especially if you attach a master of the forge with bike and a conversion beamer. With proper targeting and congo-lining, you can even get to use his S10 AP1 blast with the other weapons from the squad.

Incidentally, that's a nice army you have there. I've only got about half my bikes ready now (stupid Forge World toys, stop stealing my attention!) but I'm hoping to get the rest up and running in the next month or two.

Creeperman wrote:C:SM bikes are shooting units (excepting of course tooled-up command squads), and cannot afford to carelessly charge into bad matchups.

True, but I'd just note two things.

Firstly, bikes are fast enough to avoid most bad matchups in close combat. If one is sprung on them, that's what combat tactics are for.

Secondly, bikes may be better at shooting, but they're not BAD at close combat. Compared to death company? Sure, but compared to an awful lot of stuff out there, from GEq squads, to wounded MCs and termies, to stationary or slow-moving vehicles, there's a lot that a bike squad with a fist can threaten. This is especially true given the fact that you can shoot all your bolters, plasma guns, and multimeltas and STILL charge in. A couple of squads of bikes focus firing on a single unit and then charging in is going to be pretty tough for most individual units to resist.

as a longtime competitive marine player I must complement you understanding how important combat tactics are. I often see people not use it and so ready to replace it with a hero.

I have won so many games VS heavy close combat armies because I feed them a tactical squad to take their hits fall back and wipe them off the table with sheer rapid firing units. sternguard were always getting the job done. I fire the 2+ wound round about 90% of the time it never fails me. I don't give a damn if you even have a 2+ save when you're taking 12-15 armor saves you're going to fail a few.

Bikes are awesome I like to use them in a 2 or 3 hit combo. thunder wolves? ok i'll just rapid fire everything i can then assault you with 2 squads of bikes with my captain. pretty much always gets the job done.

I am a big fan of assault marines. they are so cheap and underestimated. I use them as small assassin squads for tanks or to assist bikes in close combat.
125 points buys you 5 assault marines with a power fist? yes please. people ignore them and then OH WHATS THAT?!?1 I AM FLYING OVER THIS WALL TO PUNCH YOUR TANK IN THE BACK WITH A POWER FIST?!??!! but you were to busy staring at my bikes and tanks?!?! Problem? *troll face*

I have turned many tanks inside out with a small group of 5 assault marines. and they have done very well to assist bike in assault combos. along with being a cheap safety net to catch fast targets trying to harm my objective holders. it frees my bikes up to do other jobs

GamzaTheChaos wrote:as a longtime competitive marine player I must complement you understanding how important combat tactics are. I often see people not use it and so ready to replace it with a hero.

I have won so many games VS heavy close combat armies because I feed them a tactical squad to take their hits fall back and wipe them off the table with sheer rapid firing units. sternguard were always getting the job done. I fire the 2+ wound round about 90% of the time it never fails me. I don't give a damn if you even have a 2+ save when you're taking 12-15 armor saves you're going to fail a few.

Bikes are awesome I like to use them in a 2 or 3 hit combo. thunder wolves? ok i'll just rapid fire everything i can then assault you with 2 squads of bikes with my captain. pretty much always gets the job done.

I am a big fan of assault marines. they are so cheap and underestimated. I use them as small assassin squads for tanks or to assist bikes in close combat.
125 points buys you 5 assault marines with a power fist? yes please. people ignore them and then OH WHATS THAT?!?1 I AM FLYING OVER THIS WALL TO PUNCH YOUR TANK IN THE BACK WITH A POWER FIST?!??!! but you were to busy staring at my bikes and tanks?!?! Problem? *troll face*

I have turned many tanks inside out with a small group of 5 assault marines. and they have done very well to assist bike in assault combos. along with being a cheap safety net to catch fast targets trying to harm my objective holders. it frees my bikes up to do other jobs

Interesting use for Assault Marines. I suppose it'd be better than a melta bomb, considering you get 3 attacks on the charge instead of 1.

Do you consider taking them with flamers, or just a cheap 5 man squad for some tank assassinations?

I just take a fist. if I take a weapon I actually take the plasma pistol. I was able to shoot side/back armor of a few tanks and cause good damage if I was out of assault range. or to simply shoot it then assault if it didn't kill it.

Hey Gamza the Chaos. . . Are you the guy that made those You Tube Videos on Marine Tactics?

I watched the ones on bikes. . . I have about 14 that are not completely painted, but someday I will try this all bike attack.

Creeperman wrote: C:SM bikes are shooting units (excepting of course tooled-up command squads), and cannot afford to carelessly charge into bad matchups. Creating good matchups is the strength of most fast-attack units in general, and these should of course be exploited ruthlessly.

Agreed. When you assault, you should be assaulting the 1-2 models that survived your torrent of fire. The majority of a bike army's power comes from shooting, not assault.

Creeperman wrote: t, there are some circumstances which warrant standing off and blazing away instead, such as if difficult terrain separates you and a dangerous assault unit or in the case of a unit with the slow and purposeless rule.

Yes, there will be times when you want to sit at 20" away and shoot your guns We should always keep our tactics flexable and be willing to do whatever suits the need best. I've sat back and plinked away at death company before when the only threats to my bikes were things that I still got cover saves from.

Creeperman wrote:Wound allocation is one of the finer points of 5th edition gameplay,

Even normal wound allocation helps. My standard bike squads have the following allocations
* Sergeant
* 2 special weapons
* 2 bullet catchers
* 1 MM bike.
If my squad is hit by 8 wounds, I can allocate in the following way. Lets say one of those shots is an AP2 shot that I cannot save from.
* Sergeant (1)
* 2 special weapons (1)
* 2 bullet catchers (2 each, plus AP2 shot goes here)
* 1 MM bike. (1)
After I am forced to wrap around, I then put the wounds back onto the bullet catchers. This increases the chance of the valuable weapons surviving. This also helps to protect my squad, because it limits the chances I will have a completely crappy roll by isolating each of the wound groups into batches. In this example, if I crapped out and failed all 3 saves to the bullet catchers I would only lose the 1 guy -- the other already being dead from the LC shot.
While its not nearly as effective as nob bikers, the wound allocation helps this kind of a squad quite well.

Creeperman wrote:Incidentally, that's a nice army you have there

Thanks. I put a lot of work into it. Marine bike armies are very fun to play, stylish on the board, and take people by surprise at how fast and durable they are.
Bikes are a harder army to play with the surge of GK. GK bring a lot of high AP, high STR shots which are very effective vs bikes. As such, when I am bringing my bikes to play lately I am changing up my strategy a little bit. I've been going back to using an empty LR redeemer for mobile cover, and bare bones predators so they can move and shoot with my army. I've been dropping the speeders, and have been thinking of beefing up my squads to 7 each. Riflemen dreads, while not psydreads, are still gold for cracking AV 10/11.

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:Hey Gamza the Chaos. . . Are you the guy that made those You Tube Videos on Marine Tactics?

I watched the ones on bikes. . . I have about 14 that are not completely painted, but someday I will try this all bike attack.

Indeed sir I am. I have over 100 videos on youtube . ty for watching!

So, I just went to your youtube channel, and your video on assault marines highlights exactly why I wouldn't take them. As you note, against mech armies, they're really not that useful, what with being unable to take special weapons, and against armies that are good in CC, you're not going to want to charge them in because they're basically just regular marines in CC. You mention gunlines, but betray a slight misunderstanding of them. A guard army isnt' going to be powerless - it's going to wipe them out with artillery before they make it over, or they're going to have power blobs which will just straight up beat assault marines. You mention the stats being in the assault marine's favor, but you forgot to mention the fact that guardsmen have stubborn, rerollable morale power weapons hidden ranks deep therewithin.

If killing power isn't their thing, that means that they can only fill the speedbump role you mention - flying in front of stuff and stealing charges. This is a neat ability, but 125 points for a throwaway speed bump is kind of steep. Plus you could have instead spent those points on something with killing power to make it so that even if the tac squads don't have bubble wrap, what is hitting them is now weakened enough to handle them.

I agree that jump packs can lead themselves to some shenanigans, and they easily look scarier than is merited. The problem is that what they gain in mobility, they seriously lose in killing power, making them no more than a harassment unit.

Yes, you can fly over terrain and punch a transport to death (unless it moves around a lot prior), but that's not having all that much of an impact. If you want to have a defensive unit that can react to things attacking tac squads, this is probably best done by just practicing good force concentration in the first place.

I have had a chance to play guard. blob guard and mech. and have gone VS a few guard armies I agree these guys will get destroyed vs blob. but if I was throwing them at blobs that would be silly. I would however throw them at vets HQs or anything else. I simply go on what has worked for me. and 125 points is cheap in a space marine world. mobility means more than killing power to me because I can easily combine them with the speed of other units to create a multi assault that takes down heavy targets.

the lack of melta guns does hurt a little.

I feel flexibility with speed will always win over raw killing power. but that has been my personal experience.


ALSO! I should add I always like playing discarded units so I try to focus on positive means to apply them. this for reasons why I played 4 Russ tanks in the tournament rather than spamming chimeras. out of like 6-10 guard players that were there I was the ONLY person to have a russ. everything else was standard hydras and chimeras etc lol.

so that's why you you will rarely see me dismissing units people dismiss

Well, but the only point of mobility is the ability to apply killing power better. The mobility is the multiplier here, but the base killing power is so poor that you're kind of stuck with nothing more than a harassment unit, hoping that your opponent will present you with some weak targets to bully.

I suppose that it's nearly the cheapest way to field a single power fist, but I still question how much this squad is really going to accomplish other than being annoying, especially since the range of targets it can threaten is so tragically narrow.

Ailaros wrote:Well, but the only point of mobility is the ability to apply killing power better. The mobility is the multiplier here, but the base killing power is so poor that you're kind of stuck with nothing more than a harassment unit, hoping that your opponent will present you with some weak targets to bully.

I suppose that it's nearly the cheapest way to field a single power fist, but I still question how much this squad is really going to accomplish other than being annoying, especially since the range of targets it can threaten is so tragically narrow.

Well I would argue speed is more than the ability to apply killing power but with that speed allows multi assaults which is applying killing power imo lol.
I just enjoy giving chances to units that are often looked over and I have found them to preform well when applied realistically.

I run Dark Angels, Ravenwing bikes are more expensive than regular Space Marine BIkes and have a few extra perks but the two squads in my army are some of the most valuable units I've got. They're versatile enough to take on tanks with their supply of melta weaponry, snipe at isolated infantry units with twin bolters, charge and pin units for the Deathwing follow-up charge, run rings around the enemy...

Regular Bikes are quick, tough, and have the ability to deliver two meltaguns and a multi-melta into the midst of the enemy much more quickly than a Rhino-mounted squad. They're expensive, but if you use them carefully they are definitely worth it.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:as a longtime competitive marine player I must complement you understanding how important combat tactics are. I often see people not use it and so ready to replace it with a hero.

Pfffffffft clearly you don't understand the power of Vulkan. Have you read his special rule?
(Come on, we all know some tweaker is going to pop up and say it. I'd rather have it put out there in sarcasm )
Combat tactics is the real misunderstood bastard child of C:SM. Like when people compare GH to tac marines- "what good is combat tactics compared to being better in melee?"
f-f-f-f-facepalm


Also I semi agree on the assault marines. I use raptors in a similar fashion. I get meltaguns though. I think part of the power of the squad its its cheap- 5 marines, not breaking the bank, and only have a fist. How many guns are you going to point at them? Surely there's something more important than 5 assault marines, a mediocre unit? I mean really?