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Four missile devs (assume that's what you mean by MC-Devs) have an expected result of a little over 1.7 penetrating hits per volley on AV10 vehicles, including the signum. Half that if the vehicle(s) have cover saves. So the expected kills per volley is about .85 without cover or about .42 with cover.

Three penetrating hits is fairly unlikely from a single volley, but even it if does happen then the expected number of dead speeders is 1-2. It'll cripple the unit, but likely not score a KP.

On the other hand, if a unit of typhoons fires at the Devs first, you'd expect about 4 and sometimes 5 dead marines with krak & HB, or about 2-3 if they're in cover. So if they don't have ablative guys, it comes down to who gets to shoot first.

Just because something extremely bad might happen to a squadron sometimes doesn't make squadrons useless.

[edit]
Actually, Joey, I think you actually proved my point. Four missile devs are pretty likely to score a KP off a single rhino with a volley, but statistically extremely unlikely to score a KP off a squadron of speeders.

4 is 2.6 hit, 1.7 penetratings 0.43 glancings. That's a roll for one each of your speeders.
Unless you want to sacrifice their shooting capacity completely and put them in cover, sure. Generally speaking though it's pretty tough to do.
It's entirely possible for all three to be blown up in one turn, and not THAT unlikely.
Against Hive Guard, melta vets, devestators, laser preds, hydras, HWTs, anything that can lay down lots of high-strength shots.
And trying to funnel as many points into them as possible in order to maximise the size of your kill points is frankly silly.

Right, the point that joey is trying to make here is that if you have three individual speeders, you have to target them with three individual squads, soaking up more separate units worth of firepower, or taking longer. Most importantly, any amount of firepower that was overkill is simply lost.

With a squad of three, you can target it with one unit at a time until you're satisfied with the damage. It might take as many units, but it might not. Also, as Joey is noting, overkill isn't lost, it's rolled over. That 2x hydra squad on the other side of the board is going to put down is going to put down 3 penetrating hits, which means it's very possible to roll two vehicle destroyed results. On a single speeder, that extra result is lost. On a squad of speeders, that's two speeders down.

Plus, squadroning takes a fragile unit and gives absolutely everything that shoots at it Ap1. If a pair of meltaguns winds up next to the speeders (say, they were dropped in or flown in on raptors or driven over on bikes), a penetrating hit (which is pretty easy to get) destroys the speeder in a squad on a roll of 3+. Ouch.

Flavius Infernus wrote:How can it be a "gross overestimation" when I'm talking out of my own direct experience here? I'm not estimating, I'm recalling.

Lots of possible reasons why AV10 vehicles suffering from the squadron rule are being more survivable for you. Perhaps you're really lucky with them (or your opponents are always unlucky against them), or perhaps they're not doing as much damage as you think they are (so your opponents are justifiably ignoring them more, thus shooting them less, thus they're surviving longer), or perhaps you're playing opponents who don't know what autocannons are, or haven't figured out how to bring enough anti-tank weapons. Possibilities are limited only to the scope of human imagination here.

If, in your particular subjective data set, your squads of AV10 vehicles totally wreck your opponents army every time and are practically invincible, then good for you, but I'm going to need their objective issue of fragility resolved before I'd consider taking them outside of one or two builds.

Jihallah wrote:What are you going to purchase with your FA options?

Nothing? FA choices aren't mandatory.

Obviously it would sometimes make sense to take stuff here, but SM also has plenty fine options in elites and HS for support units.

Fetterkey wrote:

Ailaros wrote:For 115 points apiece, you can get 2x 5-man space marine squads with 2x multimeltas apiece (one with a signum). I can't think of another codex that can do anything even vaguely similar.

Well, Codex: Space Marines can also get a squadron of 2 Attack Bikes with multi-meltas for 100 points

Interesting. To be fair, they're only half as durable compared to devs (devs getting cover, attack bikes blowing themselves up inside it), or really, only a quarter (precisely because of their instant death liability, but, then, who really brings a lot of S10 outside of tau?). As Flavius notes, though, these are completely hidable behind other stuff and terrain, making them a pretty nifty looking counterattack option. Is it worth taking outside of gunlines/bike lists?

Ailaros wrote:Right, the point that joey is trying to make here is that if you have three individual speeders, you have to target them with three individual squads, soaking up more separate units worth of firepower, or taking longer. Most importantly, any amount of firepower that was overkill is simply lost.

With a squad of three, you can target it with one unit at a time until you're satisfied with the damage. It might take as many units, but it might not. Also, as Joey is noting, overkill isn't lost, it's rolled over. That 2x hydra squad on the other side of the board is going to put down is going to put down 3 penetrating hits, which means it's very possible to roll two vehicle destroyed results. On a single speeder, that extra result is lost. On a squad of speeders, that's two speeders down.

Plus, squadroning takes a fragile unit and gives absolutely everything that shoots at it Ap1. If a pair of meltaguns winds up next to the speeders (say, they were dropped in or flown in on raptors or driven over on bikes), a penetrating hit (which is pretty easy to get) destroys the speeder in a squad on a roll of 3+. Ouch.

In most tournaments and in most regular games, Kill Points are a secondary or tertiary objective in case of a draw. Having three seperate Land Speeders not only fills your Fast Attack slots, but gives a seperate Kill Point for each one, where as a Squadron only gives one when the last Speeder is downed, which isn't impossible, but unlikely during the course of the game (until turn 4-5) due to higher priorities Space Marines can field.

If you're fielding a Landspeeder Squadron and your enemy wastes an Alpha-Strike on them, you're better off.

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:How can it be a "gross overestimation" when I'm talking out of my own direct experience here? I'm not estimating, I'm recalling.

Lots of possible reasons why AV10 vehicles suffering from the squadron rule are being more survivable for you. Perhaps you're really lucky with them (or your opponents are always unlucky against them), or perhaps they're not doing as much damage as you think they are (so your opponents are justifiably ignoring them more, thus shooting them less, thus they're surviving longer), or perhaps you're playing opponents who don't know what autocannons are, or haven't figured out how to bring enough anti-tank weapons. Possibilities are limited only to the scope of human imagination here.

Or he could actually be good fielding them, but of course, it has to be the players he's playing against. They're all terrible.

Ailaros wrote:
Interesting. To be fair, they're only half as durable compared to devs (devs getting cover, attack bikes blowing themselves up inside it), or really, only a quarter (precisely because of their instant death liability, but, then, who really brings a lot of S10 outside of tau?). As Flavius notes, though, these are completely hidable behind other stuff and terrain, making them a pretty nifty looking counterattack option. Is it worth taking outside of gunlines/bike lists?

It's generally very easy to get cover for a unit of 2x attack bikes. One toe on one bike is all you need for a nice coversave. This is coversave edition after all. They do however count ID at T4, which is their biggest weakness. Compared to 2xmultimelta devs though, they are much better. 36/24" multimeltas with the ability to rapidly reposition are great. Static 24/12" multimeltas not so much.

Well I also play regularly *against* armies that have AV10 skimmer squadrons, so maybe I'm a really bad player since I also find it a pain to kill them with my shooty armies.

At Adepticon, for example, I drew the extreme Eldar AV10 opponent army--9 vypers and 9 warwalkers. My army was packing 7 multilasers, two battlecannons, two melta cannons, six heavy bolters, 9 heavy flamers and 25 meltaguns. Meltaguns massed at short range, were the only weapons able to wipe whole squadrons of AV 10 vehicles (and only with multiple volleys). All the long range shooting wasn't able to score a single KP against the squadrons that stood off at range in cover. Killed a few vehicles, but only managed two squadrons. The player--who was a really experienced player from Sweden and has been playing this army for awhile--said his army doesn't give up KPs easily because of the squadrons.

I don't know if there can be any objective proof. I think the only way to understand it is to actually try out the models on the table for awhile, instead of guessing based on the numbers in the book.

Also, attack bike can go to ground to get 3+ save against ID krak missiles. In squadron, this typically mean you will lose 1 instead of both. Combat tactics them back and move forward 15" next turn = pure gold.

KplKeegan wrote:If you're fielding a Landspeeder Squadron and your enemy wastes an Alpha-Strike on them, you're better off.

Really? 270 points lost to stray autocannon fire sounds like pretty expensive bait to me.

Of course, if you're saying that it would be better to ignore them and shoot at things that are a bigger threat, then 270 points is an awful lot of points to spend on a unit so crappy it's ignorable.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I don't know if there can be any objective proof.

I'm sorry you don't feel that you can be objective. When I have the exact same experiences as you've had perhaps I'll understand, but as I find the idea of playing the exact same players in the exact same circumstances with the exact same luck rather difficult, I don't know if that will ever come to pass.

Illumini wrote:It's generally very easy to get cover for a unit of 2x attack bikes. One toe on one bike is all you need for a nice coversave. This is coversave edition after all. They do however count ID at T4, which is their biggest weakness. Compared to 2xmultimelta devs though, they are much better. 36/24" multimeltas with the ability to rapidly reposition are great. Static 24/12" multimeltas not so much.

of COURSE they use the T4 for ID. In that case, this is much more of an issue as there's a lot of S8+ Ap3 or better stuff out there. I suppose that REALLY means that they'd be a counterstrike force only, as you'd need to keep them basically flat out of LOS. With a 24" melta threat range, that's a hell of a counterattacker, though.

You know, they actually strike me like guard rough riders. Fragile, cheap units that you put in reserve and have show up and attack anywhere on your half of the board. A nasty surprise for any charging land raider, for sure. I suppose with khan you could do some very unfortunate things to your opponents with a few pair of MM attack bikes...

One benifit to squadrons you have missed is that only 50% of the unit needs to be in cover to get a cover save.

Typhoon Speeders are also the perfect height to hide behind Rhinos(and similer height vehicles) and get cover saves while not giving the enemy a cover save.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:What are you going to purchase with your FA options?

Nothing? FA choices aren't mandatory.

Obviously it would sometimes make sense to take stuff here, but SM also has plenty fine options in elites and HS for support units.

Your HS and elites are full
You have 100p left
The Siren Song of the Typhoon begins...
When you make a shooty list, and you want to squeeze more shooty in... Typhoons

Try them!


There seems to be alot of hate for squadrons. I think they have their places. Speeders are a bit "eh" for squadrons, don't really need them but can be done.

I see your point Flavius. When you kill 2/3 vypers and that last bugger sits back at extreme range in LOS and you have to dedicate one or more units just to get rid of one gun so you can get a single measly kill point whilst the 9 warwalkers are pummeling you... it makes you shoot the warwalkers to get them to stop. Of course, that means that whilst your not taking as much damage from the opponent as a whole, your still missing out on those VP's off the Vyper squadron which you've already invested time and effort in trying to get. Do you go for the killpoint? or the rest of the army which is actually killing you? Anyone who can't see how your Swedish opponents squadrons made his army less vulnerable to KP's hasn't played someone who understands the list of pro's and con's that go with squadrons.

Jihallah wrote:Obviously it would sometimes make sense to take stuff here, but SM also has plenty fine options in elites and HS for support units.

Your HS and elites are full
You have 100p left
The Siren Song of the Typhoon begins...
When you make a shooty list, and you want to squeeze more shooty in... Typhoons

Try them!

Of course in a way the Squadron rules don't really hurt the speeders, they really can't get any more fragile.

Squadroning them also allows them to remain mobile in the event they don't get killed. If one or 2 get Stunned they can move and take cover while they recover from the effects.

Grey Templar wrote:Of course in a way the Squadron rules don't really hurt the speeders, they really can't get any more fragile.

Hah, touche.

Of course, now you're having to do things such as actually fear bolter fire. It's not just that it makes something flimsy a little flimsier - it makes it a whole new class of flimsy.

Fortunantly, Typhoons operate well out of bolter range. The only weapons that can be shot at them at similer ranges are things like Autocannons, Missiles, and Lascannons which will probably be shooting at your heavier vehicles or Transports.

Its all about synergy. You can't play Vanilla marines without it.

Grey Templar wrote:Fortunantly, Typhoons operate well out of bolter range.

Yeah, but those bolters can move too, and the board is only so big. Rhinos, bikes, and drop pods (not to mention deepstriking boltweapons like termies), even jump pack-armed models can get around. Perhaps a speeder can outrun an individual one of these, but they're not going to be able to outrun all of them in a limited playing space. That's what field position is all about.

Squadding them up gives you effectively open topped AV10 vehicles...

Grey Templar wrote:The only weapons that can be shot at them at similer ranges are things like Autocannons, Missiles, and Lascannons which will probably be shooting at your heavier vehicles or Transports.

Sure, I could see them as being much more useful in, say, a razor list.

I don't buy the "they'll be shooting at other stuff!" thing, though. Being so crappy that it's ignorable compared to better stuff doesn't seem like much of a selling point for me. If it's a threat, your opponents are shooting at very flimsy vehicles. If it's not a threat, what are you doing bringing non-threatening units?

Flavius knows whereof he speaks. I recommend that folks unconvinced re-read the rules for squadrons and try them out. They really are more durable against most things in this edition, particularly at standoff range in cover, as Typhoons nearly always are.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:There seems to be alot of hate for squadrons. I think they have their places. Speeders are a bit "eh" for squadrons, don't really need them but can be done.

Right, I'm also not against squads per se, but squadding does make things more fragile, so if you do it with an already very fragile vehicle...

...did you read flavius' account of playing against AV10 eldar?

So, the scenario, as I read it, was thus. Two light vehicle spam armies were engaged in relatively static gunline fire against each other. One player waited until his squadroned units got hurt in a KP game, and then hid the survivors. The other player was unable to do anything to finish off the stragglers. In the case you provided, the other player perhaps had the ability, but chose not to exercise it.

The reason I'm not convinced about speeders in this scenario is that there are so many things that could have been done to prevent it, that if any of them would have been done, the light vehicle squads would have been much less of a problem.

For example, the second person could have brought more long range killing power so that they actually killed the flimsy vehicle squads, rather than merely wounding them. The player could have focused the fire they had better. The player could have brought any of a staggering amount of movement options to track down the stragglers (or used the options he had - speeders can deepstrike), or had better field position so that the stragglers had few places (if any) to run to. Of course, this is all true only on KP missions as well.

What I see in this scenario is somebody taking a certain kind of list, and having the counter to it being AV10 vehicle spam, and rather than bringing a less rock-paper-scissors-able list, or adapting to what their opponent was doing, they just sat there and was frustrated by their opponent's movement.

In any case, this is still exactly one data point here, and it's not even well documented (we don't know what the relative luck between the two players was, or what the terrain was like, etc. etc.), and a single, subjective sample isn't a whole lot to go on. Plus, no matter what an experience may have looked like, it still doesn't address bigger issues, like the fact that speeders can't both shoot and get a free cover save, and that they're just AV10, and that squadding them makes them effectively open topped, and that it removes the inefficiency of overkill from your opponent's shooting, and, and...

I'm not saying that you can't be annoying with AV10 vehicles, and I'm not saying that smarter players can't be even more annoying with them. What I'm saying is that player skill can't be waved like a magic wand that makes liabilities built into the unit disappear into thin air. Remember, player skill cuts both ways. It makes no sense to say that you can do something and then deny that your opponent can undo it.

You haven't understood what was written. That's okay. You probably need to try it out.

Mannahnin wrote:You haven't understood what was written. That's okay. You probably need to try it out.

QFT =\

What is my own small subjective data set going to gain me that can't be articulated through objective means?

Perhaps if the single story so far were explained in more detail, or abstract arguments pulled from it. The only thing I've got to draw on here basically boils down to an "oh yeah? Well I had a game once..." anecdote.

Another note on that topic:

I played a mechork player once with my guard. Had a Manticore 2 Executioners 5 Chimeras and 2 AC-Sentinels. He had 9 Buggies, 6 Kans, 2 Battlewagons 2 Trukks.
It ended 2:1 on Killpoints in my favour... I shot the whole game with Multilasers and ACs vs his annoying Buggies, i didnt get a single squadron completely killed.
The reason was not considerable bad luck, the reason was the 4+ cover save and hit allocation. If he has 1 buggy with destroyed weapon, he will stack pens on him as long as I do enough glances to cover the healthy ones.

And AV10 with a 4+ cover save is quite durable. As the shooting player you have to get past 4 rolls: To hit, to penetrate, cover save and vehicle damage. So against AV10 squadron in cover you need 4 penetrating hits to kill one vehicle. Maybe you have BS3, so you will end up with 8 shots. S10... If you have S6 it is doubled up to 16 shots. So it will take you about 6-7 ACs to down a single speeder in a squadron which will be most likely the unimportant one and 6-7 more to down the second one. And if the opponent has 3 squadrons of 2 Landspeeders, you will need 42 acs in one turn, 21 acs in two turns,..7 ACs in 6 turns. If your army has 7 ACs they will need a whole game to get rid of 6 Landspeeders in cover. Given that the opponent is stupid enough to place them in a way all 7 ACs will see them for the entire game and those 7 ACs will stay unharmed in the course of the battle.

I would consider that quite tough.

-Nazdreg- wrote:I played a mechork player once with my guard. Had a Manticore 2 Executioners 5 Chimeras and 2 AC-Sentinels ... I shot the whole game with Multilasers and ACs vs his annoying Buggies, i didnt get a single squadron completely killed.

Right, but this is once again showing how a parking lot can struggle against a fast AV10 spam army. As mentioned, though, not all armies are parking lots, and not every army (including marines) can spam fast AV10 vehicles. Yes, you can bring 9 speeders, but then what does the rest of your list look like?

-Nazdreg- wrote:And AV10 with a 4+ cover save is quite durable.

So, two things. Firstly, if your opponent is SMFing for the 4+, you should thank him for shaking his vehicles for you. If your opponent is getting cover through other means, you can do a lot of things about that cover. Were we talking about infantry models, this would be a different story, but I can't imagine there are a lot of speeders hanging out in area terrain.

Secondly, if AV10 is so impervious to shooting, then why on earth would you ever take a speeder? If AV10 is capable of withstanding turn after turn of krak missile fire, well then what's the point of taking a speeder that isn't capable of doing more than shooting a couple of krak missiles? After all, that speeder really isn't doing any damage to what they're shooting at, if even squadroned AV10 is so impervious to this kind of shooting.

Are we arguing speeder squadrons or squadrons?
Whilst I'm for squadrons, I'm not so down with speeder squadrons. Not worth the spam. A typhoons survivability is a combination of is mobility, range and lack of threat- there are other more worthy targets getting stuck into your lines than that speeder sitting 48" away.

Speeders can get cover from behind Rhinos and Predators. having them pelt missiles from the safety of your gunline (since Vanilla Marines going very far beyond any objectives is crazy talk and heresy), and blow things up that are running at you. Not to mention the glorious ability to, in an emergency, move 12" and still beat the gak out of an infantry squad with 2 frag missiles and a heavy bolter.

Crazyterran wrote: Not to mention the glorious ability to, in an emergency, move 12" and still beat the gak out of an infantry squad with 2 frag missiles and a heavy bolter.

12"? I thought fast vehicles could only shoot one weapon while moving at cruising speed.

Jihallah wrote:Are we arguing speeder squadrons or squadrons?
Whilst I'm for squadrons, I'm not so down with speeder squadrons. Not worth the spam. A typhoons survivability is a combination of is mobility, range and lack of threat- there are other more worthy targets getting stuck into your lines than that speeder sitting 48" away.

Yeah, I agree with this. Squadrons perhaps, speeder squadrons, why bother?

I think the main question here boils down to two similar things.

- are missile launchers good at killing stuff? If they are, then your opponents are very likely to have some, and that means your speeders are toast because they're too fragile. If missile launchers aren't good at killing stuff, then why bother taking a unit with such worthless weapons?

- are land speeders a threat? If they are, then they're going to get shot at. If they're not, then why aren't you taking a unit capable of threatening stuff?

As a drop and pop suicide unit? Sure. As a "I can't figure out what to spend my last 90 points on?". Maybe, though I think I could find something better most of the time. As an AV10 heavy weapon platform in an army filled with AV11 heavy weapon plaforms? Why not?

Outside of this, though, the fragility:firepower and the fragility: cost ratios don't look good for the speeder. You've got to find some way of guaranteeing that you blow up a bunch of stuff before the speeder itself is blown up, which looks borderline at best, at least without deepstriking.

Other options have ways of fixing this. Predetors have much better armor. Attack bikes can be left off the board and then suddenly show up and shoot (much like deepstriking a speeder). Devastators can take extra bodies and can benefit from the much easier way that infantry models get cover saves. Unless you've got some solution, the speeder is just being a harassment unit that shows up, is very temporarily annoying, and is then swatted away. Why bother with this in an army that has so many other tougher options? With bother with harassment units at all in an SM army?

On a final point, I'm finding this "you need to experience to believe" a strange direction. And by strange, I mean religious, not only in pattern, but even in specific. I hear "You need to experience speeders to understand the impact they can have on your list", and it immediately recalls "You need to experience Jesus to understand the impact He can have on your life." Since when did the tactics board become mystical?

Ailaros wrote:

Crazyterran wrote: Not to mention the glorious ability to, in an emergency, move 12" and still beat the gak out of an infantry squad with 2 frag missiles and a heavy bolter.

12"? I thought fast vehicles could only shoot one weapon while moving at cruising speed.

Jihallah wrote:Are we arguing speeder squadrons or squadrons?
Whilst I'm for squadrons, I'm not so down with speeder squadrons. Not worth the spam. A typhoons survivability is a combination of is mobility, range and lack of threat- there are other more worthy targets getting stuck into your lines than that speeder sitting 48" away.

Yeah, I agree with this. Squadrons perhaps, speeder squadrons, why bother?

I think the main question here boils down to two similar things.

- are missile launchers good at killing stuff? If they are, then your opponents are very likely to have some, and that means your speeders are toast because they're too fragile. If missile launchers aren't good at killing stuff, then why bother taking a unit with such worthless weapons?

- are land speeders a threat? If they are, then they're going to get shot at. If they're not, then why aren't you taking a unit capable of threatening stuff?

As a drop and pop suicide unit? Sure. As a "I can't figure out what to spend my last 90 points on?". Maybe, though I think I could find something better most of the time. As an AV10 heavy weapon platform in an army filled with AV11 heavy weapon plaforms? Why not?

Outside of this, though, the fragility:firepower and the fragility: cost ratios don't look good for the speeder. You've got to find some way of guaranteeing that you blow up a bunch of stuff before the speeder itself is blown up, which looks borderline at best, at least without deepstriking.

Other options have ways of fixing this. Predetors have much better armor. Attack bikes can be left off the board and then suddenly show up and shoot (much like deepstriking a speeder). Devastators can take extra bodies and can benefit from the much easier way that infantry models get cover saves. Unless you've got some solution, the speeder is just being a harassment unit that shows up, is very temporarily annoying, and is then swatted away. Why bother with this in an army that has so many other tougher options? With bother with harassment units at all in an SM army?

On a final point, I'm finding this "you need to experience to believe" a strange direction. And by strange, I mean religious, not only in pattern, but even in specific. I hear "You need to experience speeders to understand the impact they can have on your list", and it immediately recalls "You need to experience Jesus to understand the impact He can have on your life." Since when did the tactics board become mystical?

Frag Missiles are S4, making them a defensive weapon. Fast vehicles make cruising speed combat speed, as you know, and you can fire all the defensive weapons you want at combat speed, as well as the main weapon, the Heavy BOlter.

Crazyterran wrote:Frag Missiles are S4, making them a defensive weapon.

Oh, right. Of course they are. This definitely fits the harassment bill. Hey! Look at me! I'm driving 12" in front of my stuff and shooting off fireworks and machine guns! Hey! Look at me! Look!

... paint them construction orange and give them blinking LEDs for greatest effect.

Still. It's a temporary nuisance, however otherwise really annoying it is.

Hey man, I've seen Frag Missiles do terrible, terrible damage.

And they don't necessarily have to move. It's just an option.

Crazyterran wrote:Hey man, I've seen Frag Missiles do terrible, terrible damage.

And I've seen page 12 of the rulebook where it says that you can spread out up to 2" and still be in coherency. Really makes it tough on a weapon with a 1.5" blast radius. I suppose you do get a bit of a boost with the two shots, thing, but if I can figure out how to come out of EML-spam WW squads with only light bruising, I've got to assume that at some point my opponents will figure out the same.