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Sure, if you are shooting enemies thare are standing out in the open. I'd pelt things piled up in cover or those bastion things. But, I suppose you have a point.

Besides, one or two more wounds are still better than nothing eh? especially if you have to relocate in a hurry.

You know, I think all the talk on the last page is starting to convince me of something. Apart from the land raider (around which you can build a list), looking to FA and HS slots for support weapons is kind of "meh" in this codex.

I mean, why grouse over the durability issues of speeders when for the same price as two cyclone launchers and a couple of heavy bolters on speeders, you could take a single cyclone launcher and a bunch of storm bolters on a termie squad, which is going to be way harder to kill, more (or at best equally) mobile in early-mid game, and comes with power fists, and more options.

Likewise, why bother plinking with some devestators over here when I can drop pod a dreadnought behind their stuff and kill them over there? Why try to sneak on assault bikes for a little melta when I can drop pod in sternguard for a lot of melta?

It seems like the codex's real strengths is in its HQ, troops, and elites choices, and that HS and especially FA are really just a little extra hot sauce on the taco. You wouldn't mind making things spicier for free, but what you came for was the meat and pico in a pan-fried tortilla.

FA may be faster later into the game, but that's assuming that they survive that long, and they have to take a big cut in killing power to do it, while most HS slots seem to do little more than what can be accomplished otherwise in the troops choices, etc. Perhaps the reason why vanilla space marines are seen as less competitive is because they only have good toys in a single slot, and that what they really rely on is core units, so if you're used to toy-heavy lists, you're playing into the codex's weaknesses, rather than its strengths.

Squadron spam works, just not with all codices and definitely not with C:SM imho. A good example would be Kan wall with max squads of Kans and buggies. That's 18 vehicles in 6 squadrons, add deff dreads and the odd battlewagon or trukk and you're looking at 20+ vehicles in the 1500 - 1850 point range easily. Squadron rule drawbacks be damned, that's alot of AV to be taking down, most with a 4+ cover save.

I hear Eldar does it well also but I haven't the experience to comment.

Ailaros wrote:You know, I think all the talk on the last page is starting to convince me of something. Apart from the land raider (around which you can build a list), looking to FA and HS slots for support weapons is kind of "meh" in this codex.

I mean, why grouse over the durability issues of speeders when for the same price as two cyclone launchers and a couple of heavy bolters on speeders, you could take a single cyclone launcher and a bunch of storm bolters on a termie squad, which is going to be way harder to kill, more (or at best equally) mobile in early-mid game, and comes with power fists, and more options.

Likewise, why bother plinking with some devestators over here when I can drop pod a dreadnought behind their stuff and kill them over there? Why try to sneak on assault bikes for a little melta when I can drop pod in sternguard for a lot of melta?

It seems like the codex's real strengths is in its HQ, troops, and elites choices, and that HS and especially FA are really just a little extra hot sauce on the taco. You wouldn't mind making things spicier for free, but what you came for was the meat and pico in a pan-fried tortilla.

FA may be faster later into the game, but that's assuming that they survive that long, and they have to take a big cut in killing power to do it, while most HS slots seem to do little more than what can be accomplished otherwise in the troops choices, etc. Perhaps the reason why vanilla space marines are seen as less competitive is because they only have good toys in a single slot, and that what they really rely on is core units, so if you're used to toy-heavy lists, you're playing into the codex's weaknesses, rather than its strengths.

Because, our Elites choices are filled with Rifle Dreads, Hellfire Rounds... I mean, Sternguard, and Assault Terminators. Vanilla Terminators don't match up to those. And, suicide Ironclads can work to wipe out a tank... if their melta hits. Nothing ruins your day than that 1/3 chance rearing it's head. My favorite part of (Assault) Terminator squads are the Dedicated Transport Land Raider, which will give 0 KP if you blow up a Land Raider! It also allows you to have 4 Land Raiders, potentially...

Our only HQ worth a crap is the Librarian, for Null Zone. The only power I take other than Null Zone is the Avenger, since, if you aren't fighting something with the Invulnerable saves to make Null Zone worth it, it's a horde of things that need a flamer in the face.

A single Drop Pod is suicide. So, if you are dropping Sternguards or Dreadnoughts into a high value target, the next turn they die. Ironclads got it even more harsh, since they can't get tied into combat the turn they land.

Though, I suppose you could drop a Drop Pod infront of something that you want to slow down. since it has to go around that giant foot print. And you can always drop it empty. Might be worth looking into for a Rifle Dreadnought to do.

I think you should also consider that you only have 3 elite choices. When they're already full, what else would you get? Elite choices are prime in vanilla marines: dreadnoughts, sternguard, terminators.

And two typhoons with two cyclone MLs: 180 pts. Two cylclone MLs on a 10-man terminator squad: 460 pts. Even a termie squad with a cyclone ML is 230 points, and if you're aiming for bang for the buck that's two typhoons already plus 50 points.

Also, with the experience vs. theory thing: playing takes in the other variables that are hard to consider when just theoryhammering: your opponent's decisions, the terrain, the mission, etc. There's nothing mystical about it.

@crazyterran - but everything you just said about poor killing power and suicidality also applies to FA slots. If you're concerned that a dreadnought showing up out of a pod is relying on a few die rolls on the offense for something that's easily killed, then the same applies to speeders, etc.

heartserenade wrote:I think you should also consider that you only have 3 elite choices.

Between two HQ slots (which you can spend a lot of points on some pretty good characters for), three elites choices (which likewise, you can throw a LOT of points at if you want), and up to 6 troops choices (troops choices actually being rather good), I can't think of a time where I would be absolutely forced at gunpoint to pick something FA or HS, or utterly forgo the ability to field a competitive list.

If anything, your complaint about elites slots filling up too fast is exactly the point I was making - elites are what's really good about the codex.

I'm not sure, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Predators and Typhoons give 6 strength 8, 6 strength 7 and 27 strength 5 shots a turn for a princely 525 points. That's about a third of a 1500 point army. You have to pay another 410 points for your troops, perhaps a little more, and then you have about 500 odd points to spend on HQ and Elites. In a typical 1500 mech list, marines will have 3 armour 10, 3 armour 13, 2 armour 12 and 3 armour 11 vehicles.

It's armour saturation that keeps Land Speeders alive. Anti-tank weapons can't shoot everything, and Typhoons are less threatening than a Predator or Dreadnought. Those vehicles can sit in cover and are big enough to provide cover for the Speeder which can fire over them.

People are suggesting that you try the army because they're despairing at your inability to see that putting up an armour 10 vehicle in a vacuum and saying it will die has no relation to how it actually performs in an army.

No, Marines are not a top tier army, but that's because their troops are weaker compared to the present champions, Space Wolves and Blood Angels. Their Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support are still pretty good value and it's those that carry the army.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:I'm not sure, are you being deliberately obtuse?

I'm only obtuse if you ignore what I wrote not two hours ago...

Ailaros wrote: As an AV10 heavy weapon platform in an army filled with AV11 heavy weapon plaforms? Why not?

furthermore...

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:People are suggesting that you try the army because they're despairing at your inability to see that putting up an armour 10 vehicle in a vacuum and saying it will die has no relation to how it actually performs in an army.

It's not looking at it in a total vacuum that's the problem here. It's that...

Ailaros wrote:What I'm saying is that player skill can't be waved like a magic wand that makes liabilities built into the unit disappear into thin air. Remember, player skill cuts both ways. It makes no sense to say that you can do something and then deny that your opponent can undo it.

Anyways, enough with my words being ignored.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:No, Marines are not a top tier army, but that's because their troops are weaker compared to the present champions

Actually, I came to an opposite conclusion finally reading it. Yes. Other codexes have good troops choices, but tac squads only seem to look bad when you ignore the special rules (and cross-army synergy) that they have.

Ailaros wrote:
If anything, your complaint about elites slots filling up too fast is exactly the point I was making - elites are what's really good about the codex.

They are good. But you didn't answer the question: what if your elite choices are filled up? Or would you rather spend all of your points on Elite, Troops and HQ? If so, give a list of what you would consider spending all of your points on Elites on.

I wasn't really arguing in favour of speeders in general, I was arguing against them being completely fragile.

I am not very fond of missile launchers, they struggle too much with AV12 or better. Thats why I dont like typhoon speeders (which should be played very cautiously) so much. I think one with cyclone and multimelta and one with only heavy bolter in a squadron has some merits, being not too expensive for 2 mobile missile shots a turn with the option for a MM shot at close range and in some lists the deep strike suicide MM-speeder can be useful, but thats it. They are definitely not a must-have though.

I agree with you, elite choices are very good and should be maxed out. But I wouldnt bet on regular termies though. TH/SS is too cheap and efficient to not take them and sternguard and dreads are also too good.

Marines troops (tacs) however are just not so glorious. Combat squads and ATSKNF is their main strength, Combat tactics is very unreliable (you have to pass the sweep and you have to retreat out of escort range, which is difficult). Firepower is close to 0 as well as close combat impact compared to the other MEQ codizes. They can be useful in masses but if they have to actually contribute to the battle they are overchallenged.

Most of the time Marines fight with their elite part.

Ailaros wrote:I think the main question here boils down to two similar things.

- are missile launchers good at killing stuff? If they are, then your opponents are very likely to have some, and that means your speeders are toast because they're too fragile. If missile launchers aren't good at killing stuff, then why bother taking a unit with such worthless weapons?

- are land speeders a threat? If they are, then they're going to get shot at. If they're not, then why aren't you taking a unit capable of threatening stuff?

You are a mad man you are ><
1) yes. They are flexible too. They work fine against AV10-12. They can insta-gib T4 multiwound models. They can help with anti-infantry.
Yes my opponent is likely to have some (dependent on race but...), but there is a variety of units for them to shoot at, not just the speeder. And part of the beauty of the speeder is that using my mobility I can hide from key AT units.

2) yes, but how much of a threat? Whats more threatening, the units chewing chunks out of your army or the speeder pinging up transports? My plasma GH are going to chew tac squads up, but my speeders and preds and longfang unit (one's enough, innit?) are what's letting me chew those tac squads up by opening the rhino's and razorbacks.
So of course you want to limit my anti-mech power here, ya? So this is where using the mobility of the speeder to limit LOS comes in. By avoiding LOS to some AT units, you limit the choices your opponents have to hit your speeders. Then target saturation- You could put shots into my speeder or the rhino in midfield. You blow the rhino, you can hit the marines with armor ignoring firepower. You blow the speeder, you don't have to deal with 2 krak missiles or 2 frags and 3 HB rounds per turn. The damage potential is much higher in other units. And if you do hit my speeder and blow it, frankly I'd rather lose the speeder than the rhino, if I had a choice of vehicle blown (situational, but as a general rule those GH will do more damage over the course of the game than the speeders, and also cap points. GH win me games- speeders help GH)

Now go to the church of speeders and have a religious experience damnit (I liked that analogy )

I have to say that I find your fasination with many "subpar" units entertaining. However, looking at a codex, you can quickly be fooled by all the incredible options, but then in the end, it turns out that you can't make all those cool combos work because of pts. Why don't you try to make a list to see if your ideas really work out at say 1750pts? I think it would be interesting to see what you come up with

PS: If you dig the elite choices and dislike the heavy choices, you can take a master of the forge to move any dreadnought into heavy slots.

@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I agree, it looks on paper like AV 10 squadrons should be a really boneheaded move. That's why it's surprising to see how well they actually stand up against long-range AT fire in a vehicle-heavy environment. It's not intuitive.

Anyway I'm done arguing this. I miss the earlier, fun part of the thread where we were talking about the SM codex and not the wisdom of squadrons. Can we go back to that?

Flavius Infernus wrote:@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I think it's quite humorous; him telling actual Space Marine players that their units they field are sub par while suggesting that the sub-par units in the Codex (Regular Terminators) are better. But I guess he knows more, without all the mystical, hand wavery, playing the army...

KplKeegan wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I think it's quite humorous; him telling actual Space Marine players that their units they field are sub par while suggesting that the sub-par units in the Codex (Regular Terminators) are better. But I guess he knows more, without all the mystical, hand wavery, playing the army...

Fine then, I'll bite back: as a BT player (as in, 70 points per Typhoon), I find that Land Speeders are every bit as fragile as Ailaros claims. If they're in range of anything, they're likely going to die.

That said, I still think they're decent, they add quite a bit of dakka to the army.

I guess I'll throw in that I sometimes use Chronos as a Vindi driver. Forces more shots at the tank to take off the gun but I can still ram with that nice AV13.

Also Cassius is a nice HQ choice for lower point games seeing that a capt would be more expensive for less gear.

The nice thing of the speeders is they fit into the fast attack slot.

A shooty C:SM list will consist of the following
* Dreads in Elite slot
* Razorbacks in Troops slot
* Predators in Heavy slot

This allows the FA slot to be used to bring more armor (albeit fragile) to the table.

Flavius Infernus wrote:@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I agree, it looks on paper like AV 10 squadrons should be a really boneheaded move. That's why it's surprising to see how well they actually stand up against long-range AT fire in a vehicle-heavy environment. It's not intuitive.

Anyway I'm done arguing this. I miss the earlier, fun part of the thread where we were talking about the SM codex and not the wisdom of squadrons. Can we go back to that?

A multilas on a chimera can pop all three AV 10 vehicles in a single shot. Unlikely, but possible.
The fact is there's so many weapons that have the potential to score 2 or 3 damage results on an AV10 squadron that it's bound to happen sooner rather than later.
I have literally never had a squadron of AV12 or below that I didn't immediately regret taking.
For gaks and giggle, 3 Heavy Bolter HWTs fire at the speeders. 4.5 hit and 1.5 damage results. This means you're as likely to get 2 as you are to get 1. Not so bad you might think.
Until the other nine shoot.
Hell even a Punisher. 20 shots, 10 hits, 3.3 damage results. That's one each right there. Then the HBs, another 1.5. So now 1 of them has 2 and there's a 50% chance that two of them will.
Or deepstriking meltaguns. If they both hit, you're looking at two AP1 penetrations, spread out of course.
Or rapid-firing plasma guns. 4 hits, 2.6 damage results. That's one on each too.
These are just examples from the IG 'dex that will lay waste to AV10 squads. There are plenty of others in other codexes (devestors, dakka preds, hive guard to name a few).

Ailaros wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Well, it's 48" and 36" when you add in the bike's movement. Plus, outflanking means side and rear shots and you can always charge in with a power fist. right after. Seems nifty, even without also using the scout's ability to bring stuff in via teleporting.

Perhaps not the best unit in the world in all builds, but I'm still kind of surprised that I've basically never seen them before, especially since they seem generally better than regular SM bikes.

I'm not really familiar with bike units, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't firing a rapid fire weapon in the shooting phase prevent an assault the same turn?

Ricedaddy wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Well, it's 48" and 36" when you add in the bike's movement. Plus, outflanking means side and rear shots and you can always charge in with a power fist. right after. Seems nifty, even without also using the scout's ability to bring stuff in via teleporting.

Perhaps not the best unit in the world in all builds, but I'm still kind of surprised that I've basically never seen them before, especially since they seem generally better than regular SM bikes.

I'm not really familiar with bike units, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't firing a rapid fire weapon in the shooting phase prevent an assault the same turn?

They are relentless, allowing them to assault after firing rapid/heavy weapons

Bikes are relentless

* Edit :Illumini beat me to it

mrwhoop wrote:Also Cassius is a nice HQ choice for lower point games seeing that a capt would be more expensive for less gear.

Cassius is fantastically underrated for what's effectively the bastard child of a Chaplain, a Sternguard veteran, and a Plague Marine in an HQ slot for only 125 points. The only problem is that he really wants to be in an assault squad, which doesn't mesh well with his shooting. The best fit for him on the field is probably hijacking another character's tooled-up hybrid command squad or honor guard, and playing whatever role is appropriate as the situation demands. Unfortunately, this gets a little pricey on points, which offsets his initial low points cost.

Well I guess I should say what I field him with, a tac squad in a plain RB and a sarge with a power weapon. Ablative wounds for shooting and another power weapon for assaulting. Again at low point levels he's an easy HQ instead of a captain or Libby that may peril. Course if I really need the points than I drop him for the cheaper libby.

I guess I should also mention I sometimes like using a MotF as an HQ (not using 6 dreads) an assault squad and a TFC too. The dex has options though to be blunt I haven't used my Devs since I got them. A pred/vindi is cheaper and I guess I have LF envy...wait that came out wrong

Joey wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I agree, it looks on paper like AV 10 squadrons should be a really boneheaded move. That's why it's surprising to see how well they actually stand up against long-range AT fire in a vehicle-heavy environment. It's not intuitive.

Anyway I'm done arguing this. I miss the earlier, fun part of the thread where we were talking about the SM codex and not the wisdom of squadrons. Can we go back to that?

A multilas on a chimera can pop all three AV 10 vehicles in a single shot. Unlikely, but possible.
The fact is there's so many weapons that have the potential to score 2 or 3 damage results on an AV10 squadron that it's bound to happen sooner rather than later.
I have literally never had a squadron of AV12 or below that I didn't immediately regret taking.
For gaks and giggle, 3 Heavy Bolter HWTs fire at the speeders. 4.5 hit and 1.5 damage results. This means you're as likely to get 2 as you are to get 1. Not so bad you might think.
Until the other nine shoot.
Hell even a Punisher. 20 shots, 10 hits, 3.3 damage results. That's one each right there. Then the HBs, another 1.5. So now 1 of them has 2 and there's a 50% chance that two of them will.
Or deepstriking meltaguns. If they both hit, you're looking at two AP1 penetrations, spread out of course.
Or rapid-firing plasma guns. 4 hits, 2.6 damage results. That's one on each too.
These are just examples from the IG 'dex that will lay waste to AV10 squads. There are plenty of others in other codexes (devestors, dakka preds, hive guard to name a few).

"Done arguing this" = Lalalala, can't hear you.

I actually put away my space marines for a while to focus on building up a guard (and now a chaos) army -- it's nice to go back and talk about the space marine codex.

One of the last things I was experimenting with before I stopped playing space marines was using both Khan and Pedro in a list (and using Khan's combat tactics rule), Khan + Pedro + assault terminators in a landraider outflanking is pretty hilarious.

Also, Command Squads w/ 4 special weapons are pretty nice close range fire support.

Ailaros -- It seems that at this point you've got a lot of opinions on the list overall -- care to post an 1850 space marine list? I agree with a lot of other posters here that our tactical squads really aren't the best part of our codex (for what they get, I think our tactical squads are too expensive) but I'd certainly like to see you build a list using lots of tactical marines.

Combat tactics has a secondary benefit:
Berserkers are about to assault: They shoot their pistols. If you take enough casualties, you choose to fail the morale test and run out of their charge range. Next turn you automatically regroup.

As a result, against SM's, good players will avoid shooting on the way in, so the side effect is you get shot less by assaulting units.

A lot of players blow that off as an unimportant beneft, but we're talking 10 BS4 pistol shots usually. (Sometimes worse) If you could mitigate 10 strength 4 attacks, you'd probably say this ability is pretty awesome...

Rhinos vs. droppods: Rhinos by themselves are pretty meh. However, they become annoyingly good at a certain point of field saturation. They are cheap, provide mobile cover, tank shocks, and potential harassment. A rhino that isn't dead can still contest an objective. A rhino at the end of the game is useful for denial...especially in kill points. Pick up the last guy of a dead unit and drive away where no one can reach the rhino or him. You just saved on kill points right there. Of course, this only works with field saturation...but you know what everybody has said about mech dominating this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Land speeders are not fragile. My friend that plays eldar takes warwalkers and it's rare that they die. Why? Because only ranged weapons can hurt you. So guess what you kill first? The ranged weapons. Lascannons are actually pretty terrible at killing speeders in cover. Maybe your viewpoint is skewed because guard can take lots of ranged firepower...but most armies (including Tau) have limitations on how many ranged weapons they can take. As a reminder, in this game, melta is king. Melta is probably not going to ever be in range to kill landspeeders, and even if it is, odds are you'll have a cover save. This is why mech is so dominant in this edition.

If you take pot shots at a vehicle squadron, you'll get a hit here or there. The SM player just dumps all the damage results on one speeder. It's fricking annoying when that happens.

Oh, lastly, you're misrepresenting stubborn a little bit. If you take Pedro Kantor, you get his +1 attack bubble, scoring sternguard, and stubborn in place of combat tactics. Sternguard with pedro nearby are 3 base attacks and 4 on the charge...like khorne marines. Big picture, you're not trading combat tactics for only stubborn.

I am pro scouts. . .

AKA, Scout bikes are cheap, can carry homing beacons, and infiltrate, just like chosen Chaos.

Basic marine scouts did get nurfed with there BS 3 WS 3 but still fun.

Combat squads are rock tactics as heavy stays and CC leaves. For scouts it means snipers/ bolters stay CC leaves in storm or on a different infiltrate location.

Bla bla bla you know this already, you read the book, Talion is worth it for a ten man squad and with a techmarine save he is pimptastic

So, calls for a list? Here are a couple of 1500 pointers that immediately popped out at me:

Cato Sicarius

Dreadnought, assault cannon, drop pod deathwind
Dreadnought, assault cannon, drop pod, deathwind
Dreadnought, multimelta, locator beacon

10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod, locator beacon
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod, deathwind
10x tac squad, MM, plasma gun, combi-plasma, power fist, drop pod, deathwind, locator beacon

Or...

Khan (with moondrakken)
Command squad - bikes, 2x meltaguns, champion, storm shield

10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM

2x attack bike squad, 2x MM
2x attack bike squad, 2x MM

or something. Both of these rock the low-model count, extreme force concentratability angle. Not unlike...

Master of the Forge

10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist

Land raider, multimelta, extra armor
Land raider, multimelta, extra armor
Land raider

All of these are pretty rough drafts, but you get the gist. How to upgrade them to 1850 is rather obvious (another tac squad/upgrades for HQ for the pod list, more bikes for the bike list, a better HQ for the raider list, etc.)

Obviously a razorspam list popped out as well, but it's pretty obvious what one of those should look like.

In any case, it struck me that there are several possible good builds for marines, rather than basically just the one everyone else seems to go for.

Ailaros wrote:So, calls for a list? Here are a couple of 1500 pointers that immediately popped out at me:

Cato Sicarius

Dreadnought, assault cannon, drop pod deathwind
Dreadnought, assault cannon, drop pod, deathwind
Dreadnought, multimelta, locator beacon

10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod, locator beacon
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod, deathwind
10x tac squad, MM, plasma gun, combi-plasma, power fist, drop pod, deathwind, locator beacon

Or...

Khan (with moondrakken)
Command squad - bikes, 2x meltaguns, champion, storm shield

10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM

2x attack bike squad, 2x MM
2x attack bike squad, 2x MM

or something. Both of these rock the low-model count, extreme force concentratability angle. Not unlike...

Master of the Forge

10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist

Land raider, multimelta, extra armor
Land raider, multimelta, extra armor
Land raider

All of these are pretty rough drafts, but you get the gist. How to upgrade them to 1850 is rather obvious (another tac squad/upgrades for HQ for the pod list, more bikes for the bike list, a better HQ for the raider list, etc.)

Obviously a razorspam list popped out as well, but it's pretty obvious what one of those should look like.

In any case, it struck me that there are several possible good builds for marines, rather than basically just the one everyone else seems to go for.

I like the second list a lot. As for the first list, I guess it comes down to how you'd play it -- my concern is that an army with decent assault (say, space wolves with thunderwolf calvery) might give it a lot of trouble.

Ailaros wrote:Khan (with moondrakken)
Command squad - bikes, 2x meltaguns, champion, storm shield

10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM

2x attack bike squad, 2x MM
2x attack bike squad, 2x MM
or something. Both of these rock the low-model count, extreme force concentratability angle. Not unlike...

Good first stab at a bike list. I don't think there are 10 man bike squads though. The biggest is 8 + MM bike for a total of 10 marines, with 9 models on the board.

Bikes are fun armies. I usually bring more long range firepower in mine, as I found that the list you showed above has a footprint problem.