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To be fair, Squat fans were extremely lucky to even have that letter from JJ. Up until that point there had only been a single, extremely condescending reply to a letter in White Dwarf (back when it had a letters page) which essentially said, "the model line was terrible, why on earth do you still want them when there are so many great new releases available?"

And that was it. As you can see, the complete disconnect between GW and their fans is not a recent development. Kudos to Jervis though for writing the letter, I sometimes think he is one of the last guys there who remembers the old 'by gamers, for gamers' adage of the company, and when he finally retires all of us will be that much worse off for it.

Please, Jervis going away is no loss. He hasn't contributed anything to the game in a long while, and the things he did contribute were the most bland and boring books ever written for 40K (Dark Angels, and Dark Eldar with Gav Thorpe, who then carried that "inspired" writing style to Codex: CSM).

His mentality was always "you don't need no interesting rules or variety of choices when you has imagination!" Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Omegus wrote:Please, Jervis going away is no loss. He hasn't contributed anything to the game in a long while, and the things he did contribute were the most bland and boring books ever written for 40K (Dark Angels, and Dark Eldar with Gav Thorpe, who then carried that "inspired" writing style to Codex: CSM).

His mentality was always "you don't need no interesting rules or variety of choices when you has imagination!" Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Really? His WD articles have often given me a different (better) outlook of 40k. I for one support him.

Back to the OP, I think Jervis' letter perfectly summed it up. I would personally like to see them make a come back though, even as models with no codex or part in 40k just to use as Counts As. Come on, if these guys can still be sold on the website, why not Squats?

Really? His WD articles have often given me a different (better) outlook of 40k. I for one support him.

He does things well when it comes to certain things... Codex writing and his childish antics when he doesn't get his way, yeah no.

Dark Angels are praying for any new codex writer to take over, because at this point they've been gimped for so long thanks to his horrid "styles". Not to mention he and Alessio were responsible for the worst codex simplification in 4th edition (Eldar, CSM, DA, Chaos Daemons) Orks got lucky they got written by someone who cared a bit more for them. So they managed to keep a bit more of their interesting stuff.

Not to mention his telling message to Ogre Kingdom players within the FAQ itself! (You don't take petty little matters it to area's specifically aimed for gameplay!)

Omegus wrote:Please, Jervis going away is no loss. He hasn't contributed anything to the game in a long while, and the things he did contribute were the most bland and boring books ever written for 40K (Dark Angels, and Dark Eldar with Gav Thorpe, who then carried that "inspired" writing style to Codex: CSM).

His mentality was always "you don't need no interesting rules or variety of choices when you has imagination!" Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Aside from the codecies, which are more of a subjective call anyway, he was responsible for some of the best games ever to come from GW, including Blood Bowl, Space Hulk and Necromunda. So, I think the guy deserves a little bit more respect than the cry of "he ruined my codex!" - the codex could have been so good that it made cups of tea for you, and fetched a spare roll of loo roll if you were caught short, but it still wouldn't have anything like the impact on wargamer's lives than those games listed above have had. Especially when considered outside of the extremely myopic and narrow measure of codex creep and a single army within 40k.

As well as that I heard that the entire Specialist Games range was going to be entirely shelved at one point. I'm not talking about not giving the games no new support, but actually removed entirely so they were no longer a purchasable option from the GW website. He offered to take the entire range under his wing, keep the free downloads of rules, and all in addition to his other duties at GW and for no extra pay. So yes, it's criminal that some of the best games ever made by GW have been relegated to a dusty corner of the website, but we are lucky to even have that corner at all.

Anyway, that along with the letter trying to placate the angry Squat fans? I think all in all he comes across as a pretty nice bloke, and the last of the 'old guard' who were there in the early days of the company.

I think I prefer "Squat" to "Scrunt" really. Squat just sounds silly, Scrunt sounds kind of dirty.

It sounds more then a little dirty, but short, viking , big wheel riding hairy men...what do you expect?

I like the Squats. Felt they got done dirty. If they decided not to continue the model range, it's one thing. Killing them off with some half-mention of Tyranids (which aren't anywhere near where the Squat Homeworlds were supposed to be, lol) is just stupid.

Their Rogue Trader era army was a little silly. But all the armies were a little silly in Rogue Trader. It's pretty stupid to say "Squats were dumb, glad they're gone". If they have killed off every race that was a little dumb in Rogue Trader, it would be a pretty small gaming universe. I think it would have been possible for them to evolve the Squats away from the space dwarf bikers, but I imagine that in the end, it was impossible to maintain the Squat styling and fluff while losing the silly bikers image without just making them a slow, short Imperial Guard.

Sometimes I wish that was what they'd done. Could have made Squats a themed line for IGuard like Catachans, Valhallans, etc.

http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Warpath/Forge-Fathers.html

Those are pretty sweet looking, with a much better name.

I am making a die cast mold for squat models. I found my old 1k force of them. They make great space wolf scouts.


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Buttons wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:I myself hate both the idea of them and the way GW handled them< I mean viking midgets bikers...just ugh. That said the reconning them out was handled poorly, but poor setting management is what i have come to expect from GW.

God you are depressing. Why must everything be doom and gloom with you?

Hunterindarkness cut it out. If you dont have sonthing good to say then dontsay it unless it helps in some way or another.

So you're recasting GW models?

BairdEC wrote:I'd guess points. Back then (mid-90s) a blister of two lead or pewter minis cost $6. Used to be this hobby wasn't ridiculously expensive. Then the bean-counters took over GW.


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Kain wrote:

How is going down to a massive series of Hive Fleet Kraken tendrils not heroic?

'Cos all the Squats got was a "oh, the Squat homeworlds got eaten by 'Nids. So sorry."

(Yes, I'm bitter. I wouldn't be a proper Squat warlord if I weren't, though.)

$6 in 1995 adjusted for inflation is $9.05 in 2012 dollars, still pretty cheap. just a helpful bit of info, i'm not arguing with you.

Scrunts?

Aren't those the tangled-root monster wolves from...

Lady in the Water?

Coolyo294 wrote:So you're recasting GW models?

I'm pretty sure at this point it's no big deal. GW has shown no desire to remake them. and they're getting harder to find everyday. GW isn't losing money when they refuse to sell the product to begin with. It'd be like reprinting the 3rd edition rulebook for personal use or something.

Although knowing GW, they'd still probably hunt you to the ends of the earth with their lawyers anyways

I had a chuckle here a month or so ago.

New GW store opened in central ohio, our first. Management came up from Tennessee to help kick start the first weekend.

I went, got some swag, and played a few games.. got totally destroyed (genestealer horde vs GK Paladins).

After getting my stealers tabled off the board.. I loudly said something like..

"well, those guys didn't do SQUAT"...

just, you know, as a expression of frustration.

BUT.. MAN OH MAN.. the reactions of the management was priceless to behold..

A Customer had uttered the dread S**** word...

I gotta do that more often..

-P

MrMoustaffa wrote:I'm pretty sure at this point it's no big deal. GW has shown no desire to remake them. and they're getting harder to find everyday. GW isn't losing money when they refuse to sell the product to begin with. It'd be like reprinting the 3rd edition rulebook for personal use or something.

It's still a potential issue legally. As GW's IP, it's GW's choice as to whether or not to sell them. It doesn't become ok to copy something just because the owner doesn't want to sell it to you,


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porkuslime wrote:BUT.. MAN OH MAN.. the reactions of the management was priceless to behold..

A Customer had uttered the dread S**** word...

Not to be rude, but if this actually happened, I suspect that you were projecting, rather than that there was any significant reaction. The GW attitude towards squats is nowhere near as over-the-top as people on the internet keep trying to make out.

As a fan of the Squats I've been enjoying the webcomic Beardy Bastards, its nice to see them back, even if only from the thoughts of a fan story.

As to Squats themselves, I'd love them to come back, but we all know the name and other factors means we will just get the Demiurg. However if they indeed turn out to be heavily armour tech like Dwarves in space, and they appear as allies for the Tau as rumoured. I could see me having a small Tau force just for them.


On a side note I think the IP thing that is being referred to earlier in the thread is Malus, and that I believe is the only time it has come up.
Its easy to hate on GW sometimes, but they are not that inept to allow Games Designers to own all their own creations, just oddly that one.

insaniak wrote:

porkuslime wrote:BUT.. MAN OH MAN.. the reactions of the management was priceless to behold..

A Customer had uttered the dread S**** word...

Not to be rude, but if this actually happened, I suspect that you were projecting, rather than that there was any significant reaction. The GW attitude towards squats is nowhere near as over-the-top as people on the internet keep trying to make out.

I was not "projecting" I promise.. There was about 50 people in a store designed for 15, I think.. (2 tables, rather small), on opening day. Lots of talk, lots of general noise. I HAPPENED to be about 5 feet away from the management types when I said Squat..

He got a "hairy eyeball" expression, or.. more like exaggerated eye rolling, with a "aaarrrgh" expression.. I remember thinking he was thinking "Lord, not again".. it was that sort of expression.

Lots of talk and noise... So just as much chance that he was reacting to something someone else said... Or to a dodgy lunch.

MrMoustaffa wrote:In before the inevitable cycle of argument starts. I like the idea of them, and one of my to do projects is to build a small squat army (either counts as IG or maybe grey knights to take advantage of all their crazy gear since that's similar to what squats had supposedly) I wasn't around when they existed, but wouldn't mind them coming back

The problem is, they were a bunch of biker midgets with some of the most insane vehicles in the game. They kept it lighthearted and funny (like orks, argue it all you want, but their comic relief is something this game desperately needs) When the age of grimdark fell upon us, it was inevitable that they'd get the boot. I think they could've had a better send off though. Something like a heroic last stand against a massive ork invasion or even the imperium trying to exterminatus them would have been cool. You know, let them go out with dignity.

And that's why we will never see them "officially" in another GW authorized material, because they clash with the grimdark feel of the universe.

That, and they're not SPESS MEHREENS, so of course GW probably doesnt care about them

Just to be clear..

The squats were mainly armed with flak armour, lasguns and boltguns. In 40k they had bikes and Exo-Armour (like a not-quite-as-good Terminator Armour). They could take a lot of heavy weapons, but these were still mainly Heavy Bolters and Heavy Plasma Guns. There is no way they were anything like as powerful as a Grey Knight army, and they didn't really have any 'crazy tech'. In 1ed, there were practically no standard vehicles. Once some did come out, all Imperial forces, including Squats, just used Rhinos and Land Raiders. No crazy vehicles either. In EPIC, though, the force was fleshed out to use lots of crazy massive war machines - Overlord Airships, Land Trains, Moles, etc. However, all these vehicles are Apocalypse sized models.

There's very little reason to field Squats as anything other than Imperial Guard (maaaaybe Orks). I guess Space Marines, at a push, would get you Terminators and Bikes, with the majority of troops as Scouts, but Grey Knights would be pretty OP...

I did not really understand the strength of the hatred towards these little guys. I was lucky enough to get my hands on 30 of the lil blighters, outfitted with Lasrifles, pistols and some kind of shoulder mounted bolters. My gaming group allows me to use them as an IG infantry Platoon, we play the shoulder mounted weapons as straight Bolters to keep with the Rapid Fire aspect of the rest of the army. It was a great addition to my collection

I also have to agree with a previous poster that all of the early armies (Rogue Trader days) were very silly. Space Marines were criminal psychopaths, Orks were organized (even having cities and human advisors). The Squats just fit in with the rest of that over all, Goth-rock feel to the early game.

insaniak wrote:Lots of talk and noise... So just as much chance that he was reacting to something someone else said... Or to a dodgy lunch.

I dunno, I've seen staffers in my youth say things along the lines of "Anyone who mentions Squats again is banned for x amount of minutes" when I was a regular at a certain store.

Then we have the question that was ALWAYS asked when GWused to do seminars at Games Days etc. Cue much eye rolling from studio staff.

Dogface 76 wrote:I did not really understand the strength of the hatred towards these little guys. I was lucky enough to get my hands on 30 of the lil blighters, outfitted with Lasrifles, pistols and some kind of shoulder mounted bolters. My gaming group allows me to use them as an IG infantry Platoon, we play the shoulder mounted weapons as straight Bolters to keep with the Rapid Fire aspect of the rest of the army. It was a great addition to my collection

Those shoulder-mounted bolters are probably the early Heavy Bolter design, which was a lot smaller and less bulky than the current design. So, you could probably stick them on a base with another squat and call them a heavy weapon team if you wanted...

Lobukia wrote:Okay, we know this. Jervis is doing damage control. GW did not have the IP to the squats. Way back when in the 90s, they let their in house game designers retain control of their own IP. One of them left in a bitter fued, and took the squat's rights with him. Every thing else is just a ribbon on the pig.

You've made this claim about the Squats before, and it's both unsubstantiated and implausible.

Bob Olley left Citadel in 1990 (Squat models for the Rogue Trader army list were in fact sculpted by the Perrys after his departure), and GW continued to sell old Squat models, release new ones and publish background for many years after that. They were included in the 1992 Epic Ork and Squat Warlords box, and the 1993 "Black Codex" in the Warhammer 40,000 2nd Ed. box, and continued to appear in catalogues, getting the occasional new Epic model, until 1996.

If Bob really owned the rights to anything Squat-related from his time at GW, he would not be selling his "Scrunts" under that name. I see no evidence that he even owns the rights to the sculpts he made at GW, since he would now presumably be selling them if he could. Has Bob himself made such a claim? (If he has, he's been very discreet about it.) If not, on what do you base this apparently ludicrous assertion?

I think the Squats were a bit too tongue and cheek for my liking. The Orks are enough to fill my need for a comedic army, one that sets me to giggling now and again.

Had they just made them engineering gurus it wouldn't have been so bad. Still, it's a tiresome emulation of the fantasy universe, but it completes the circle of life that is the Space Elfs, Space Orks, and of course Space Dwarfs... some fans need to complete that holy triumvirate.

They could have done them justice, but they didn't... biker dwarfs are just too campy a theme. Perhaps their reinvention as the Demiurg might be a way to give them a second chance.

ArbitorIan wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote: Me talking about things and stuff

Just to be clear..

The squats were mainly armed with flak armour, lasguns and boltguns. In 40k they had bikes and Exo-Armour (like a not-quite-as-good Terminator Armour). They could take a lot of heavy weapons, but these were still mainly Heavy Bolters and Heavy Plasma Guns. There is no way they were anything like as powerful as a Grey Knight army, and they didn't really have any 'crazy tech'. In 1ed, there were practically no standard vehicles. Once some did come out, all Imperial forces, including Squats, just used Rhinos and Land Raiders. No crazy vehicles either. In EPIC, though, the force was fleshed out to use lots of crazy massive war machines - Overlord Airships, Land Trains, Moles, etc. However, all these vehicles are Apocalypse sized models.

There's very little reason to field Squats as anything other than Imperial Guard (maaaaybe Orks). I guess Space Marines, at a push, would get you Terminators and Bikes, with the majority of troops as Scouts, but Grey Knights would be pretty OP...

Well, I'm newer to the hobby, and haven't seen many of the squat models up close. Most of what I know of them is from the fluff, which talked about their large reserves of archeotech, and the fact that unlike the imperium, they were still trying to innovate technology. With that in mind, I figured they'd make for a cool little grey knight counts as army, with all their crazy wargear being ancient technology and new stuff they had put together. Maybe make them a small community of survivors who survived the tryanid swarms or something. That way they could've hid from the imperium improving their gear and whatnot and trying to survive.

I have seen several counts as IG squat armies on dakka though and they look awesome. If I didn't already have an IG army, that probably would've been my first choice.

Uhlan wrote:I think the Squats were a bit too tongue and cheek for my liking. The Orks are enough to fill my need for a comedic army, one that sets me to giggling now and again.

Had they just made them engineering gurus it wouldn't have been so bad. Still, it's a tiresome emulation of the fantasy universe, but it completes the circle of life that is the Space Elfs, Space Orks, and of course Space Dwarfs... some fans need to complete that holy triumvirate.

They could have done them justice, but they didn't... biker dwarfs are just too campy a theme. Perhaps their reinvention as the Demiurg might be a way to give them a second chance.

The thing is everything in Rogue Trader was tongue in cheek. The Squats never got an update, which is why they seem silly. All the other armies were overhauled, some of them almost completely.

The question is though, and probably what GW struggled with, was overhauled into what? In the end, they should have been adapted as an alternative IGuard list with a few specialist units, and eliminating the sillier aspects. After all, biker dwarves are no sillier, inherently, than biker anything else. However, midget IGuard? Not really that big of a deal. After all, 2nd Edition 40K had seven different Imperial Guard model lines in the Cadians, Catachans, Mordians, Praetorians, Steel Legion, Tallarns, and Valhallans. Squats could have easily been made into a "sub codex" that accounted for their different stat line. Give them bikes instead of Rough Riders (and an updated model range of bikes). They were already more or less identical, structurally, to IGuard in Rogue Trader (using the same tanks, same basic weapons and same basic armor). It's an easy fix, that would have definitely been less insulting to the people who had invested in Squat models than to simply wipe their hands and walk away.

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:So you're recasting GW models?

I'm pretty sure at this point it's no big deal. GW has shown no desire to remake them. and they're getting harder to find everyday. GW isn't losing money when they refuse to sell the product to begin with. It'd be like reprinting the 3rd edition rulebook for personal use or something.

Although knowing GW, they'd still probably hunt you to the ends of the earth with their lawyers anyways

Actually, it's very difficult to defend an IP if you're not using it. By abandoning the Squats, and then completely erasing them from their catalog and the fluff, it makes a hard case to defend.

Besides, it's really only illegal if he's selling them at a profit.

I just started Rhulic for warmachine... that scratched that itch

They had some great Fluff, and filled the area around the galactic core.
Now that GW has killed them there is but a void there.