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htj wrote:

Trench wrote:Some folks just don't like fantasy Dwarves in any form and others are in favor of the move of GW to try to distance 40k from it's "fantasy in space" roots and thus opoose any further inclusion of fantasy elements...

This is close to why I don't like Squats. I've not got a problem with the 'Science Fantasy' aspects of 40K, and am a big fan of the various flavours of Eldar, but I never liked the Squats. I think the thing that bugged me about them was that they were too reminiscent of fantasy dwarves. If they were a bit more subtle I would probably have gone for them, but they were just to heavy-handedly bearded, mine dwelling dwarves in space. That's how they felt to me, anyway, and that's why I don't miss them.

Look back at the other comments further back in the thread and above mate. In a nutshell - Squats suited the Rogue Trader design ethic, and fit as well nowadays as any other miniature line you care to mention from the late 80's (i.e. they don't). Any reincarnation of them would be sure to distance itself firmly away from the cigar chewing, bike riding and beer swilling space truckers that were the original Squats. I have no doubt that the new ones would be a lot less humourous Look at the 'Forge Father' background produced by Mantic, I think something similar would be closer to the mark.

I find that most fans that were around at the time felt that they worked no better or no worse than most of the other Rogue Trader race concepts, in that they were merely the embryonic stage of a greater development that came later. I think a lot of fans simply felt aggrieved that the Squats didn't receive the same treatment that some of the other races did, and so they look like relics by today's standards (as indeed they are).

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well I'll be damned..Mainly it's since Jervis "I never change my damn mind" Johnson never goes back when he pushes something out and gets groups to ban people for even mentioning squats because he was pissed that people were still discussing the things. And considering his last few words in the Ogre FAQ he still seemed the same since than.

I'd be interested to see how you formed this opinion ZebioLizard? Jervis Johnson actually extended an olive branch to Squat players when his letter was published. Up until that point, there had been absolutely nothing official about it, short of an extremely condescending letter replying to a fan in White Dwarf that essentially read "they sucked, buy our newer, better models". I can guarantee you he had nothing to do at all with the ban of the mention of the word 'Squat' on the forums, simply because the rest of his track record is so good. He reputedly offered to keep the entire Specialist Games line under his own wing, and to do the extra work free of charge, when some in HQ wanted them removed from purchase entirely.

There was however another high-up person who reputedly said that "there will be no Squats while I work at GW", so perhaps you are mistaking words from that person rather than Jervis?

Jefffar wrote:I think that the mention of the squats as an existent race of abhumans in the new rule book, while not a herald of their return to playable status does at least retcon out the retcon that removed them from the universe as anything other than Tyranid turds.

It's amazing to think that such an obvious thing had passed me by for so long, but someone made a point to me on another forum the other day that that part of the background makes absolutely zero sense. I will quote from him directly:

(User name 'Hellibore'): What's made even less sense is that tyranids are attracted to planets with lots of biomass and the squat homeworlds were to a one airless balls of rock with no ecosystems and small populations of squats. Hardly an enticing feast for the tyranids, they probably would have starved before they got halfway through...

So .. screw the Eastern rim, and all those Imperial Agri-worlds and hive cities with billions of inhabitants, the Nids headed straight for the galactic core. It's almost like they had some other purpose?

Pacific wrote:Look back at the other comments further back in the thread and above mate. In a nutshell - Squats suited the Rogue Trader design ethic, and fit as well nowadays as any other miniature line you care to mention from the late 80's (i.e. they don't). Any reincarnation of them would be sure to distance itself firmly away from the cigar chewing, bike riding and beer swilling space truckers that were the original Squats. I have no doubt that the new ones would be a lot less humourous Look at the 'Forge Father' background produced by Mantic, I think something similar would be closer to the mark.

I find that most fans that were around at the time felt that they worked no better or no worse than most of the other Rogue Trader race concepts, in that they were merely the embryonic stage of a greater development that came later. I think a lot of fans simply felt aggrieved that the Squats didn't receive the same treatment that some of the other races did, and so they look like relics by today's standards (as indeed they are).

Well, I started in 2nd ed., so Rogue Trader was always a bit of a mystery to me. They may indeed have fitted well with that aesthetic, but when I got into the game they stuck out like a sore thumb. To me, anyway.

htj wrote:

Trench wrote:Some folks just don't like fantasy Dwarves in any form and others are in favor of the move of GW to try to distance 40k from it's "fantasy in space" roots and thus opoose any further inclusion of fantasy elements...

This is close to why I don't like Squats. I've not got a problem with the 'Science Fantasy' aspects of 40K, and am a big fan of the various flavours of Eldar, but I never liked the Squats. I think the thing that bugged me about them was that they were too reminiscent of fantasy dwarves. If they were a bit more subtle I would probably have gone for them, but they were just to heavy-handedly bearded, mine dwelling dwarves in space. That's how they felt to me, anyway, and that's why I don't miss them.

I like fantasy, but I like Sci-fi more. 40k for me has been the happy marriage of the two. I think its funny that you'd want them a bit more "subtle" when there is nothing "subtle" about Eldar and Orks. Those two also have the benefit of tweeking, that Squats never really had. If you tweek squats you have the demiurge. Back in the day, all the factions had relatively identical equipment, Squats never even recieved the benefit of having their bolters become Shootas or their lasguns become Shuriken catapults. Squats as they were abandoned were just a different version of the Imperium. I want to see the inclusion of the space dwarfs concept in 40k, whether its just as a single abhuman unit in the IG or in the form of Demiurge auxiliaries for the Tau.

aka_mythos wrote:

htj wrote:

Trench wrote:Some folks just don't like fantasy Dwarves in any form and others are in favor of the move of GW to try to distance 40k from it's "fantasy in space" roots and thus opoose any further inclusion of fantasy elements...

This is close to why I don't like Squats. I've not got a problem with the 'Science Fantasy' aspects of 40K, and am a big fan of the various flavours of Eldar, but I never liked the Squats. I think the thing that bugged me about them was that they were too reminiscent of fantasy dwarves. If they were a bit more subtle I would probably have gone for them, but they were just to heavy-handedly bearded, mine dwelling dwarves in space. That's how they felt to me, anyway, and that's why I don't miss them.

I like fantasy, but I like Sci-fi more. 40k for me has been the happy marriage of the two. I think its funny that you'd want them a bit more "subtle" when there is nothing "subtle" about Eldar and Orks. Those two also have the benefit of tweeking, that Squats never really had. If you tweek squats you have the demiurge. Back in the day, all the factions had relatively identical equipment, Squats never even recieved the benefit of having their bolters become Shootas or their lasguns become Shuriken catapults. Squats as they were abandoned were just a different version of the Imperium. I want to see the inclusion of the space dwarfs concept in 40k, whether its just as a single abhuman unit in the IG or in the form of Demiurge auxiliaries for the Tau.

I'm a big fan of the Demiurge as a concept. It's more what I'd like to see from Dwarves in Spaaaaace. Admittedly, Orks aren't exactly subtle either, but they just work better in my head. There was something jarring about the Squats for me, they just never blended as well as the Eldar or Orks did for me.

I think you have to compare the Squats alongside some of the other ranges around at that time. They were pretty much par for the course - at the time those minis were awesome, and they still hold something of a nostalgic charm these days (some - like the eldar - arguably are as good as the newer sculpts), but very few of them can stand alongside modern 40k minis and look like they fit in.

Exactly. If Squats seem out of place its only because of how much more familiar and used to sci-fi elves and orcs we are, as well as the fact that they've recieved those additional 20 years of fine tuning to better fit the setting.

Pacific, (nice avatar btw) you are correct of course. People do make the mistake of not looking at Squats and their model range in the context of what existed at the time. Some like to make the claim that some of the Squat fluff was "silly" but do so without having ever cracked open the RT book and seen that much of the fluff content was tongue in cheek humor...in an admittedly twisted kind of way. Others decry the low quality of the Squat miniatures range, without recognizing that by today's standards everything produced by anyone in the miniatures field was a bit crude ompared to that available today. (that being said, as i have oft said, I do prefer the clean lines that were more comon than today's "over-cluttered" figures)

(as an aside, I'm not a fan of Olley's Squats and much prefer the Perry's sculpts...but I'm a big Perry brothers fan)

Had GW not dropped them, the Squats too would have evolved with time. One only has to look at the handful of unreleased Squat miniatures at the bottom of the page I linked to get a feel for the direction the Squats would have taken. Those models are pretty decent, even by today's standards, and would not look too out of place on a table today. If the rumors are true and Squats (or something similar) are included as a Tau ally in their next codex, GW could do worse than emulate the concept behind those models.

Finally....

some - like the eldar - arguably are as good as the newer sculpts

Oh I fully agree. I think that the Jes Goodwin "second wave" Eldar models (the ones that introduced the various aspects) are the best Eldar models that GW has ever produced. They are light years better than the awful 3rd edition range and even superior to some of the current offerings. There is a reason that some of the current range (the warps spiders, wraithguard, and some of the warlocks for example) still use old Jes Goodwin models.

TR

Edit: Heh. I've always loved that Ork figure on the left in the picture you linked. He's one of my favorites. He's going to be eating metal shards when he pulls the trigger and blows the end of that bayonet off!

There was however another high-up person who reputedly said that "there will be no Squats while I work at GW", so perhaps you are mistaking words from that person rather than Jervis?

I might be mistaking a few things to Jervis, considering at times I still have the belief that it was his design, from words with Gav as to why we have split chaos in fantasy/40k.

Might just be bitter at someone who hasn't done anything, but than again it's GW, you can barely at times figure out who does what with all the secrecy.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

There was however another high-up person who reputedly said that "there will be no Squats while I work at GW", so perhaps you are mistaking words from that person rather than Jervis?

I might be mistaking a few things to Jervis, considering at times I still have the belief that it was his design, from words with Gav as to why we have split chaos in fantasy/40k.

Might just be bitter at someone who hasn't done anything, but than again it's GW, you can barely at times figure out who does what with all the secrecy.

Yeah, that would be Gordon Davidson I believe. If I remember properly he's the one that had a serious hatred of anything with the word Squat attached to it.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Yeah, that would be Gordon Davidson I believe. If I remember properly he's the one that had a serious hatred of anything with the word Squat attached to it.

I'm pretty sure that his vehement statement about Squats was largely because the "squat question" was getting asked so often at public events, to the point he found it annoying. Silly of GW when you consider that it represents a very clear consumer interest, but when has that stopped GW. Also, I don't believe Davidson is with GW anymore...Who knows, maybe thats one reason the word "Squat" could even appear in the book.


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Roadkill Zombie wrote:GW says Squats don't do the Dwarf Archetype justice in the 40k universe as squat bikers apparently turn them into a joke...yet the Grey Knights have savant monkey men with lascannons for fingers...named jokaero...

JOKEro... I always liked the notion of an intuitive understanding of advanced technology by a primitive race. Orks were more of a "joke" than Squats... so I don't think its fair. Either way, I do think the Squat bikers were a bit comedic, in the same way having fantasy dwarfs riding ponies might be. My issue is its a single bad idea and they could have dropped just the notion of Squat bikers or changed it without dropping Squats.

from what i remember reading they are under a new name and 2-3 brotherhoods have joined the tau empire. i know we have them in battle fleet gothic ^_^

shad0wen wrote:from what i remember reading they are under a new name and 2-3 brotherhoods have joined the tau empire. i know we have them in battle fleet gothic ^_^

That's the Demi'urg, which are now a different species.

Or maybe they are just Squats of a different type. The "Chaos dwarves" to the "Normal"

The Demiurg were another attempt at a Dwarf archetype, but they have nothing to do with the Squats.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Or maybe they are just Squats of a different type. The "Chaos dwarves" to the "Normal"

But Chaos Squats already existed

So, slightly off topic, but if a person was interested in making a counts as IG army full of squats, would there be any of the original squat minis worth getting to put in it? I've seen a few that look like they would fit (for example, there's this commander guy I keep seeing who looks cool) but I've not been able to get good pics of any other models. Reason I ask is there's a guy at my store who has a massive squat army and I could probably get just about any of them from him if I asked. I really like the idea behind the squats and since we have so many IG players at my store already, having a squat army would be an awesome way to stand out from the others.

Also, is there a good place to look up squat history and fluff, like a squat wiki? I've tried some like lexicanum but they always have the same, generic article in them...

MrMoustaffa wrote:So, slightly off topic, but if a person was interested in making a counts as IG army full of squats, would there be any of the original squat minis worth getting to put in it? I've seen a few that look like they would fit (for example, there's this commander guy I keep seeing who looks cool) but I've not been able to get good pics of any other models. Reason I ask is there's a guy at my store who has a massive squat army and I could probably get just about any of them from him if I asked. I really like the idea behind the squats and since we have so many IG players at my store already, having a squat army would be an awesome way to stand out from the others.

Also, is there a good place to look up squat history and fluff, like a squat wiki? I've tried some like lexicanum but they always have the same, generic article in them...

http://solegends.com/citcat911/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squat_%28Warhammer_40,000%29

MrMoustaffa wrote:So, slightly off topic, but if a person was interested in making a counts as IG army full of squats, would there be any of the original squat minis worth getting to put in it? I've seen a few that look like they would fit (for example, there's this commander guy I keep seeing who looks cool) but I've not been able to get good pics of any other models. Reason I ask is there's a guy at my store who has a massive squat army and I could probably get just about any of them from him if I asked. I really like the idea behind the squats and since we have so many IG players at my store already, having a squat army would be an awesome way to stand out from the others.

Also, is there a good place to look up squat history and fluff, like a squat wiki? I've tried some like lexicanum but they always have the same, generic article in them...

Here is a page that is an index of the entire original Squat range:
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Squat_-_Collectors_Guide
Squats are fairly common on Ebay, but building a collection big enough to build an IG army with could get expensive fast.

As to fluff, what you are looking for is the "40k Compendium". It was a collection of White Dwarf articles that apeared about 1990 or so. It contains the original RT Squat army list and several pages of background fluff. Once again, Ebay is your best bet, although you might find a scan if you look around.
Edit: Here you go. http://www.ebay.com/itm/White-Dwarf-presents-Warhammer-40-000-40k-Compendium-1989-Excellent-/370627528131?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564b1f45c3
It's good reading if you are interested in early 40k.

TR

As far as adapting old Squat models to a count as IG list... Hearthguards work as any carapace armored unit, ie vets or Stormtroopers, and since they're metal bodies with plastic arms you can give them most any weapon. Most any of the basic squats work as generic guardsmen. There were Guildsmen which are the commissar like guys I think you were talking about.

Anyone trying this I'd almost insist they get the Whitedwarf exclusive from just a year back as an engineseer, but if not him the actual Squat in power armor who is suppose to be that role... he just lacks a sevo arm. There were squat servitor models that would be a cool addition.

The squat bikes and exo armor models only really work if your IG have Marine allies. I still think the Stormtalon is a shoe-in as an iron eagle gyrocopter... Though that's conversion work

What about the mantic forgefathers to help just put some extra boots on the ground? They look good (from what I've seen online) Maybe they'd be good for just generic guardsmen, or stormtroopers/vets instead?

The Mantic forgefathers look too heavily armored to me... As in it looks heavier than carapace but how much of that is just their bulkier top heavy proportions? Those models are what I'd use if I were building a count as marine army... Their new walking ancestor they've been showing as coming soon or whatever it's called is such a stand in for a dreadnought.

MrMoustaffa wrote:So, slightly off topic, but if a person was interested in making a counts as IG army full of squats, would there be any of the original squat minis worth getting to put in it? I've seen a few that look like they would fit (for example, there's this commander guy I keep seeing who looks cool) but I've not been able to get good pics of any other models. Reason I ask is there's a guy at my store who has a massive squat army and I could probably get just about any of them from him if I asked. I really like the idea behind the squats and since we have so many IG players at my store already, having a squat army would be an awesome way to stand out from the others.

Also, is there a good place to look up squat history and fluff, like a squat wiki? I've tried some like lexicanum but they always have the same, generic article in them...

Someone else already posted links to the Citadel legends page for pics, but the original squat line was full of the variety and character that was present in all of the early figure lines with citadel. Dozens of unique minis to fill your units with. The only sticking point is the old Squats plastic boxed set from which all the figs with lasguns looked exactly the same and all the figs with heavy bolters looked exactly the same since all the arms were the same. The only real difference was the heads. The original squat metal line, though, was very characterful.

Skriker

Ummmmmmmmm, BECAUSE THEY ARE SQUAT??!! I mean seriously, space dwarves? God, just look at them!

http://indiemini.com/card/images/img_1179.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bd/Squat-infantry.jpg

If we were to judge the current concepts by the model ranges of 20 years ago I don't think 40k would exist.

Space dwarfs conceptually should exist in 40k. Just by accepting Eldar and Orks you will never be able to escape that the setting is as much sci fi as it is fantasy. Fighting that reality is to fight the unique defining character of the setting. I think it's important that such a trait be embraced not avoided. Squats were poor execution but the concept was a good one.

Personally I would love to see the return of Squat figures. They had character and to me were the sober middle ground between orks and humans in terms of "silliness" from what I remember, even if I usually dislike everything dwarven.

In my opinion GW will never be able to escape the stamp of being fantasy in space no matter how hard they try to scratch out that mark and turn it into grimdark space opera. The former posters pictures of a bulky tank is a good concept to bring them back. Hell, where other armies rule through airpower, let squats rule through mole tech and av ^^

I liked the concept of Space Dwarves, but I never cared for the Squat Models.

The concept and style of the Demiurg seems to be better executed, and I would love to see their inclusion in 40K, even if it's just in the TAU codex. A multipart plastic kit would be awesome.

Warpath Forge Fathers look like they would make an excellent Squat Model

Those figures make me want to buy a squad or two, paint them like traitors/cultists just so I can send them too their deaths

Trench-Raider wrote:

You sir are amazing.
Out of all the things ive seen on dakka dakka you laid the facts down dude! One thing however I noticed is the "new is better" well many punks I see think this and I cant say a single thing or else they go into a chirs-chan mindset. To tell you the truth on the people who like squats, I always thought that the younger 40k players liked them more than the older 40k vets.
Watch this guys video and then see why I aprove of how you laid this all down, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Hx2HICtbA

Well, I don't know about "amazing", but I do pride myself on pulling no punches. Not suffering fools very well is both an asset and a flaw of mine. But thanks for the kind words in any event.

As to the clown in the video you posted, he's clearly a complete idiot. I stopped watching and wrote him off as cluelessly repeating things he had heard rather than actually being informed at about the 2:30 mark when he started in with the "short drunken biker" myth.
He also has a potty mouth, which also goes a long way toward harming his credibility...

TR

I commented at one point saying for him to look at that model list and how there wasn't a single drunken biker and made him mad XD

Have not seen the Mantic stuff for the Squats?

Now that could be a fairly servicable Squat Dread.

Well this thread was fun showing the guys at the game store.


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Let's let this thread die out now.