Squat

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Nurgle**

You saw the title and knew that you hade to click it didnt you?
Well I wanted to know what you thought of the squat. I myself have about 1k worth of them and not very proud to admit it.
So do you think they should be around or stay dead?
Why do you think GW killed them off?

**MrMoustaffa**

In before the inevitable cycle of argument starts. I like the idea of them, and one of my to do projects is to build a small squat army (either counts as IG or maybe grey knights to take advantage of all their crazy gear since that's similar to what squats had supposedly) I wasn't around when they existed, but wouldn't mind them coming back

The problem is, they were a bunch of biker midgets with some of the most insane vehicles in the game. They kept it lighthearted and funny (like orks, argue it all you want, but their comic relief is something this game desperately needs) When the age of grimdark fell upon us, it was inevitable that they'd get the boot. I think they could've had a better send off though. Something like a heroic last stand against a massive ork invasion or even the imperium trying to exterminatus them would have been cool. You know, let them go out with dignity.

And that's why we will never see them "officially" in another GW authorized material, because they clash with the grimdark feel of the universe.

That, and they're not SPESS MEHREENS, so of course GW probably doesnt care about them

**BairdEC**

I bought at least 3000 points or so worth back when 2nd edition was out. Other than having pathetic lasguns for the basic squads and not enough numbers to make up for it, I liked them a lot. They were tough, they didn't run, and the Thunderer squads, bikers, and artillery made up for the weak basic infantry squads. The only thing they were lacking was a decent codex, and maybe an elite squad with power armor (the exo-armor rocked!).

While I would be very happy if GW brought them back, I don't expect to see that happen. From my viewpoint, the Squats filled the gap for a non-mystical, technology loving race. They fit within the 40K universe in a hard-science kind of way that the space elves didn't; even the orks, with their "fungus-based lifeform" schtick, were closer to hard science than the Elves-in-Space.

I remember hearing a lot of different reasons/ rumors for GW killing them off, but I suspect the real reason was either they weren't selling enough of them (no surprise without a codex) or they didn't know where to go with them thematically and stylistically.

For my part, I would be thrilled to get a new Squat codex, especially if I could use all my old bikers and artillery.

**Hunterindarkness**

I myself hate both the idea of them and the way GW handled them< I mean viking midgets bikers...just ugh. That said the reconning them out was handled poorly, but poor setting management is what i have come to expect from GW.

**Brother SRM**

1k by what stretch? Points values in their 2nd ed codex? Dollars?

**Kain**

MrMoustaffa wrote:In before the inevitable cycle of argument starts. I like the idea of them, and one of my to do projects is to build a small squat army (either counts as IG or maybe grey knights to take advantage of all their crazy gear since that's similar to what squats had supposedly) I wasn't around when they existed, but wouldn't mind them coming back

The problem is, they were a bunch of biker midgets with some of the most insane vehicles in the game. They kept it lighthearted and funny (like orks, argue it all you want, but their comic relief is something this game desperately needs) When the age of grimdark fell upon us, it was inevitable that they'd get the boot. I think they could've had a better send off though. Something like a heroic last stand against a massive ork invasion or even the imperium trying to exterminatus them would have been cool. You know, let them go out with dignity.

And that's why we will never see them "officially" in another GW authorized material, because they clash with the grimdark feel of the universe.

That, and they're not SPESS MEHREENS, so of course GW probably doesnt care about them

How is going down to a massive series of Hive Fleet Kraken tendrils not heroic?

**BairdEC**

I'd guess points. Back then (mid-90s) a blister of two lead or pewter minis cost $6. Used to be this hobby wasn't ridiculously expensive. Then the bean-counters took over GW.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kain wrote:

How is going down to a massive series of Hive Fleet Kraken tendrils not heroic?

'Cos all the Squats got was a "oh, the Squat homeworlds got eaten by 'Nids. So sorry."

(Yes, I'm bitter. I wouldn't be a proper Squat warlord if I weren't, though.)

**Nurgle**

I loved them in Epic. I like the biker idea though. We dont have good bikers in 40k (real bikers not these sporty looking bikes) I also loved the comic relief about them and the orks. The orks lost comic relief around 3rd edition to me. I recently started trading units at my game store for squat. I am already at 200 points

I just need a codex.

**keisukekun**

Nurgle wrote:I loved them in Epic. I like the biker idea though. We dont have good bikers in 40k (real bikers not these sporty looking bikes) I also loved the comic relief about them and the orks. The orks lost comic relief around 3rd edition to me. I recently started trading units at my game store for squat. I am already at 200 points
I just need a codex.

The guy on 40k radio did a squat army that counts as space marines.

**Coolyo294**

Good god no. The Squats were a terrible idea and they need to stay dead.

**zedmeister**

I'd just like to post this. It was a forum exchange from Jervis from back in the day on the old fanatic forums about what happened with the Squats. I think this was from about 2002 or thereabouts:

Jervis Johnson wrote:
"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic"

**Lobokai**

Okay, we know this. Jervis is doing damage control. GW did not have the IP to the squats. Way back when in the 90s, they let their in house game designers retain control of their own IP. One of them left in a bitter fued, and took the squat's rights with him. Every thing else is just a ribbon on the pig.

**Chowderhead**

Lobukia wrote:Okay, we know this. Jervis is doing damage control. GW did not have the IP to the squats. Way back when in the 90s, they let their in house game designers retain control of their own IP. One of them left in a bitter fued, and took the squat's rights with him. Every thing else is just a ribbon on the pig.

That's Malal.

**Portugal Jones**

Lobukia wrote:Okay, we know this. Jervis is doing damage control. GW did not have the IP to the squats. Way back when in the 90s, they let their in house game designers retain control of their own IP. One of them left in a bitter fued, and took the squat's rights with him. Every thing else is just a ribbon on the pig.

Nope. I don't know where you got that idea from, but in regards to squats, everything in your post is a load of gak.

**helgrenze**

I have ammassed quite a collection of the Stunties. I run them as an "as if" SM scout force (3k + as such @85 models.)... it fits their previous profile fairly close.
As for the idea that they were a "joke race", that opinion was only really held by people that never faced them.
As for the "Viking bikers" thing.... yeah they had some culutural references from the Norse, and tended to field loads of bikes, but they were one of the best "hammer and anvil" armies of their day. They could take both bikes and heavies as troops choices, something I believe no other army then or since could do. (I could be wrong, if so, tell which army can).

**AL-PiXeL01**

I would love to see the return of the space dwarves. With Apocalypse all their mighty machinery could be brought in and else wh40 could use another race with heavy loads of dark humor and what not. Even if they sober them up a tad it wouldn't hurt as the wh40 universe is filled with one copy race after another. Cutting them off or simply neglect them was one of GWs biggest failures.

And actually no, I have ever owned any of them but I love their concept as much as I love the orks, although I play chaos sm and eldar.

**Harriticus**

They looked too ridiculous, even for the over-the-top 40k setting. I'm glad they're gone, though they should have still existed in fluff and not been embargoed.

**Buttons**

Hunterindarkness wrote:I myself hate both the idea of them and the way GW handled them< I mean viking midgets bikers...just ugh. That said the reconning them out was handled poorly, but poor setting management is what i have come to expect from GW.

God you are depressing. Why must everything be doom and gloom with you?

**Nurgle**

Buttons wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:I myself hate both the idea of them and the way GW handled them< I mean viking midgets bikers...just ugh. That said the reconning them out was handled poorly, but poor setting management is what i have come to expect from GW.

God you are depressing. Why must everything be doom and gloom with you?

Sometimes when im alone I pretend to be a carrot.

**ArbitorIan**

helgrenze wrote:They could take both bikes and heavies as troops choices, something I believe no other army then or since could do. (I could be wrong, if so, tell which army can).

When Squats were last in the game, there was no such thing as a 'Troops' choice, and no FOC!

You just had 'HQ' 'Units' and 'Vehicles' as far as I remember...

**BairdEC**

IIRC, you could take up to 25% HQ, 75% Units, 50% Support. I'm thinking vehicles and artillery were both in support, along with heavy weapons squads.

Wow, it's been a long time....

**Hunterindarkness**

Buttons wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:I myself hate both the idea of them and the way GW handled them< I mean viking midgets bikers...just ugh. That said the reconning them out was handled poorly, but poor setting management is what i have come to expect from GW.

God you are depressing. Why must everything be doom and gloom with you?

Its not, I just hate the Squat. I hate the name. I hate the theme. I hate the very Idea and concept. I hate the execution. And Yes I really, really dislike GW's so called "Setting Management" its a joke, Gods alone knows why 40k is still around. There is a great deal about 40k I like and enjoy or i would not be here and I dislike all the ultra grimdark crap some folks like, but on this subject , well the race was silly and a joke.To me it had zero redeeming qualities at all.

**BairdEC**

Okay, I had to look up the Black Codex. Remembering bits and pieces was driving me nuts.

The allotment was up to 50% Characters, minimum 25% Squads, and up to 50% Support. Vehicles and artillery were in support, while heavy weapons squads were included with troops. SM & IG could only give 5 guys out of 10 in a HW squad an actual HW. Orks (Death Skulls) and Squats (Thunderers) could give each model a HW. Thunderers could also take all special weapons.

**Pacific**

helgrenze wrote:
As for the idea that they were a "joke race", that opinion was only really held by people that never faced them.

I think the concept and some of the models might be regarded as a joke race by modern standards, in the same way that any other army would be when comparing its first edition form to how they look nowadays. And yes, that includes marines, eldar and IG for the most part. The design aesthetic has changed considerably since 1st edition, and it is not fair to judge them based on that.

I heard a couple of rumours (aside from the now discredited Ghost21 rumours) that the Demiurg concept sculpts have been sat on the GW 'to release' shelves for almost 2 years now, and the range is awaiting a release window. This was heard first hand from a friend of mine from one of the sculptors at Games Day UK last year (I believe Jes Goodwin?)

There are numerous other bits and pieces which would indicate something is on the way - among them, FW sculptors being told not to make 28 demiurg, and Mantic releasing their forgefather range (there is a pretty small and networked community of games developers in Nottingham, I should think the CEO of Mantic Ronnie Renton would know whether or not GW had this kind of release planned). All of the elements combined make up a pretty solid picture.

So, I would bet a good amount of money as some form of 'Space Dwarf analogue' to be released, most likely alongside the Tau Empire codex. But, one thing is for certain (and I hope this abates your angery Hunterindarkness!

) is that they will most likely bare very little resemblance to the long deceased squats.

**Bongo_clive**

Lobukia wrote:Okay, we know this. Jervis is doing damage control. GW did not have the IP to the squats. Way back when in the 90s, they let their in house game designers retain control of their own IP. One of them left in a bitter fued, and took the squat's rights with him. Every thing else is just a ribbon on the pig.

Bob Olley? He designed them right? So why can he not call his creations Squats?

http://www.olleysarmies.co.uk/home.html

Still turns out a man model though, he was responsible for a lot of the Genestealer Hybrids too

**Omegus**

*Resets the clock*

**Hunterindarkness**

I can't say I like the name Scrunt much better. But at lest its a slight improvement.

**GimbleMuggernaught**

Hunterindarkness wrote:I can't say I like the name Scrunt much better. But at lest its a slight improvement.

I definitely disagree. While "Squat" is a totally stupid name, "Scrunt" is waaaaay worse.

**Hunterindarkness**

Neither name is great. Kinda sad in a "Poke fun at me..Oh see people like me" kind of way.

**insaniak**

Lobukia wrote:Okay, we know this. Jervis is doing damage control. GW did not have the IP to the squats. Way back when in the 90s, they let their in house game designers retain control of their own IP. One of them left in a bitter fued, and took the squat's rights with him. Every thing else is just a ribbon on the pig.

Care to explain how they kept the Squats in Epic, then?

Sorry, but you have apparently been misinformed, or misconstrued something entirely different. The 'mystery ex-games designer owns the IP' myth is commonly toted about where Malal is concerned (although, again, it runs into trouble since Malal is still present (or was for quite some time, at least) in the WHFB RPG). In recent years, the story has morphed online, and been mistakenly applied to the Squats, and at times to just about anything else that has been removed from the game since Rogue Trader. I have yet to see anything concrete actually proving any of it.

Jervis's line that the Squats were removed because the studio couldn't see a way to make them fit into the setting that they were trying to shift the game into makes sense, and in the absence of anything actually proving otherwise I see no reason to try to build it up into anything bigger than that.