Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ill be totally honest, I used to HATE the idea of Squats. Just hated the thought of them. But some how, I seem to have come around to the idea of midget space badasses. I think if they were redone in a different light instead of viking like, they could really be a sweet army. As well as something new for GW to pour some story into

I think one of the issues was focus.
Squats were basically two armies; The Brotherhood (Warriors of the Stronghold), and the Guild which was the Bikers.
The basics of the fluff really don't cross with the that of Spacewolves. Yes, there are comparisons to Vikings but those thing really don't appear in the SW fluff.

For some examples of the "mindset" of the Squats try this link...Squat Quotes
As you can see from those, they really had little for the Viking comparisons outside of revearing their ancestors, which doesn't get much mention with the SW.

For all of you that like Squats I read something on one of the other sites a while back that might make you happy. Apparently when the new Tau codex comes out, the Demiurg are going to be the new Allied race in their book. There was such a positive reaction to the Jokaero release for the Grey Knights that GW is going to include the "Squats" in the Tau Codex under the name Demiurg. Don't know how many units you are going to be able to take but someone specifically mentioned those ExoArmor guys as a close combat unit that would be taken in the Elites selections.

Reivax26 wrote:For all of you that like Squats I read something on one of the other sites a while back that might make you happy. Apparently when the new Tau codex comes out, the Demiurg are going to be the new Allied race in their book. There was such a positive reaction to the Jokaero release for the Grey Knights that GW is going to include the "Squats" in the Tau Codex under the name Demiurg. Don't know how many units you are going to be able to take but someone specifically mentioned those ExoArmor guys as a close combat unit that would be taken in the Elites selections.

Demiurg are already in, in a technical sense. They added lore and fluff to them in the Battlefleet Gothica sets, along with a ship or two.

Reivax26 wrote:For all of you that like Squats I read something on one of the other sites a while back that might make you happy. Apparently when the new Tau codex comes out, the Demiurg are going to be the new Allied race in their book. There was such a positive reaction to the Jokaero release for the Grey Knights that GW is going to include the "Squats" in the Tau Codex under the name Demiurg. Don't know how many units you are going to be able to take but someone specifically mentioned those ExoArmor guys as a close combat unit that would be taken in the Elites selections.

That does make sense.

On the other hand, the chap who produced that rumour was exposed as having a rather large quantity of smoke coming from his pants.

I had a small squat force using the army lists that came in the black and white booklet with the 2nd edition box. It had some squat bikers in it, along with a bunch of (poorly) converted dwarves and some thunderers proxying in as Lasgun brotherhood troopers. Most of the points went on the Ancestor lord

It's a better time now to be a Space Dwarf fan than ever though. Mantic's Forgefathers are cheaper than any competition, some of their stuff looks really nice, and they've got rules for their system. If I wanted to collect Squats these days, I'd be looking at Forgefathers for my miniatures, with some of those big drills from Ramshackle Games perhaps as drop pods.

Coolyo294 wrote:Good god no. The Squats were a terrible idea and they need to stay dead.

You dissapoint a fellow iron warrior player.

They're back! Officially listed as an abhuman race in the 6th Edition rulebook.

Probably won't get new models or a codex, which is fine, but at least it means the Squat ban is officially over. And hopefully that the unofficial, andextremely stupid "ate by Tyranids" story is gone.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They're back! Officially listed as an abhuman race in the 6th Edition rulebook.

Probably won't get new models or a codex, which is fine, but at least it means the Squat ban is officially over. And hopefully that the unofficial, andextremely stupid "ate by Tyranids" story is gone.

I don't believe this for a second. I mean they existed, but they don't exist anymore..

yes they do. I've got the article in print from Jervis Johnson saying that MOST of the squat homeworlds were eaten by tyranids, not ALL of them. Of the survivors, they have been subsumed into the Imperium. They do exist and have for the entire time. Just not as a race with their own codex.

I've also got the article explaining how to use them as a counts as army.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They're back! Officially listed as an abhuman race in the 6th Edition rulebook.

Probably won't get new models or a codex, which is fine, but at least it means the Squat ban is officially over. And hopefully that the unofficial, andextremely stupid "ate by Tyranids" story is gone.

I don't believe this for a second. I mean they existed, but they don't exist anymore..

Why would I make this up? Good lord some people...




There ya go son.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They're back! Officially listed as an abhuman race in the 6th Edition rulebook.

Probably won't get new models or a codex, which is fine, but at least it means the Squat ban is officially over. And hopefully that the unofficial, andextremely stupid "ate by Tyranids" story is gone.

I don't believe this for a second. I mean they existed, but they don't exist anymore..

Why would I make this up? Good lord some people...




There ya go son.

Well I'll be damned..Mainly it's since Jervis "I never change my damn mind" Johnson never goes back when he pushes something out and gets groups to ban people for even mentioning squats because he was pissed that people were still discussing the things. And considering his last few words in the Ogre FAQ he still seemed the same since than.

Pacific wrote:I think the concept and some of the models might be regarded as a joke race by modern standards, in the same way that any other army would be when comparing its first edition form to how they look nowadays. And yes, that includes marines, eldar and IG for the most part. The design aesthetic has changed considerably since 1st edition, and it is not fair to judge them based on that.

I thought they were a little goofy with all their bikes, especially the exo-armored squats on bikes. That was REALLY goofy, but never really saw them as a joke. The only really joke race for me in the various GW universes were the Slaan in early Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Humanoid frogs dressed up like Aztec or Mayan warriors? Who thought that was a cool idea?

Skirker

Skriker wrote:

Pacific wrote:I think the concept and some of the models might be regarded as a joke race by modern standards, in the same way that any other army would be when comparing its first edition form to how they look nowadays. And yes, that includes marines, eldar and IG for the most part. The design aesthetic has changed considerably since 1st edition, and it is not fair to judge them based on that.

I thought they were a little goofy with all their bikes, especially the exo-armored squats on bikes. That was REALLY goofy, but never really saw them as a joke. The only really joke race for me in the various GW universes were the Slaan in early Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Humanoid frogs dressed up like Aztec or Mayan warriors? Who thought that was a cool idea?

Skirker

I didn't mind the squats, I didn't care for the normal models, but that huge train thing in Epic was kinda cool.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I didn't mind the squats, I didn't care for the normal models, but that huge train thing in Epic was kinda cool.

The squats definitely had some awesome toys in Space Marine 2nd Edition. It is a shame that most of those toys would not translate well into the baseline level of 40k, but I would love to see Forge World make a Squat battle train or one of the squat mega cannons in 40k scale. Those gryocopters would fit 40k nicely now with the new flyer rules coming into effect.

Skriker

An Iron Eagle Gyrocopter would be relatively similar to a Stormtalon. The Squat megacannon would end up something similar to a basilisk crossed with a colosseus... without an ability to move. A land train would probably just end up being done similar to how the concept was done for Warhammer Fantasy and Chaos Dwarfs... where you have the "engine" that can pull and release the other sections which are otherwise immobile.

I think the squats would be better served than just a strict adhearance to the concepts in 2nd and epic. The Iron Eagle fits perfectly but the megacannon and land train don't quite work as well conceptually. I think the way you'd want to handle it coneptually in a new edition is to simply give Squats vehicles that appear segmented but otherwise count as a single vehicle.
Where the modularity that varies a predator from a rhino would be represented for squats as different trailer type units and where the megacannon could be such a unit.

I think the ally rules in this edition and the mixing of SM and IG units it allows presents the opportunity to do a pretty decent count-as squats list, that doesn't deviate too heavily,

Look almost no one played squats because they were the same as dwarves and they were quite frankly (*rubbish*) the only good thing about them is they got drunk ALL the time and they hated orks or in 2 ed lingo space orks.

Squats.. we're back baby.

Hmm.. need to add a Veteran Squad of noble and honour filled virtue, yet a little short in stature to my Imperial Guard.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Squats.. we're back baby.

Hmm.. need to add a Veteran Squad of noble and honour filled virtue, yet a little short in stature to my Imperial Guard.

I had the original Squats plastic box set from many, MANY moons ago. I ultimately ended up trading and selling all of them off to one of my regular opponents who plays IG. He has had squat infantry platoons in his IG army well night forever at this stage of the game. Everyone always wants to know where those neat space dwarf models came from.

Skriker

I'd be happier at the idea of the return of the Squats if they were to get vehicles like the one in aka_mythos post...

The squats suffer from some real conceptual issues for fitting into 40k. They served a number of niches that in some ways been filled by other armies since. So there is a bit of redundancy if they magically came back.

GW worked on reviving the Space Dwarf concept at the same time they came up with the Kroot and Tau. While their original plan was to choose the best of the three they ended up blending them together. The Kroot would have looked more like their Mercenary list... The tau were predominately the fire warrior and vehicle concepts... while the demiurge brought AI and robots which evolved into the drones and battlesuits. The demiurge space dwarf concept was a significant departure from Squats and in many ways the only way in terms of degree of change that would work, short of one. Squats could easily be incorporated into IG as another elite abhuman and with as varied as they were would allow GW to choose how to narrow them down conceptually. Something like just hearthguard compliment IG well.

As far as reimagining Squats, the first hurdle is you're looking at an army technologically similar to the Imperium. So if you take a minimalist approach you end up with something that's by defacto another Imperial army. So to justify them in this era they'd need something more unique to them. On one hand they have the tech common to the IG but built to SM quality and on the other they have SM tech, so they'd play as watered down SM unless given something more distinguishing.

Can I just have my railroad cannon back?
I used to have one that said "Big Bertha" in tribute to the old imperial german cannons of the great war.

As one of the most notorious Squat fans, I have to weigh in here. I just now noticed this long running thread, so much of what I normally point out in Squat threads has been pointed out by others already. But allow me a few points.

GW themselves caused alot of the hard feelings by the Squat partisans with the very foolish way they handled the removal of the race from the game. By quietly dropping the race with no explanation, wiriting them out of the fluff in a manner akin to Stalin removing purged political enemies from photos, and then showing outright hostility and dirision toward anyone who dared ask about them, GW caused alot of hard feelings that persist to this day. I have two minds about Jervis Johnson's famous "explanation" about the removal of the Squats. While it was nice to finally get a high level member of the studio staff to give a semi-official explanation, the whole post smacks of being a cop-out. Esentially, GW was too lazy to come up with a suitable Space Dwarf concept for 40k? Really? I don't buy it. I also find Johnson's repeating of some of the prevalant myths about the Squats (a joke race etc) annoying. But the bottom line is that the explanation was a half hearted attempt at damage controll that came years too late.

As someone else pointed out early, I'm a bit hopeful these days. With some of the rumors about a Space Dwarf type race as part of the next Tau codex, the return of an allies mechanism to 40k, and GW finally officially mentioning Squats (by that name) in the fluff I think it's POSSIBLE that we might see something in the next few years. It will probably be just a unit or two in the Tau book, but GW would do well to produce an article in White Dwarf with a few units as a new ally force for existing armies. But in the end, given GW's greter tendecy to not announce their future plans, it's anyone's guess.

As for me, I have about 200 Squat models, that take pride of place in my collection. Squats came very close to being my first army in 40k. But the local store I was buying my miniatures from in the 1989-90 period had more Ork models, so I went with them instead. I play my Squats on a regular basis and aside from a small handful of nasty comments by clueless kiddies, they are always a big hit when I trot them out. These days I tend to play my Squats as "counts as" Space Wolves. The higher than espected armour save aside the list is a good fit. The Wolves have a vaugely similar nordic background fluff, they can be configured as a nasty shooting army that is capable of close combat in a pinch, and have the bonus of being a very effective army on the table as well as being a good "fit". If by some crazy chance GW produces a new Space Dwarf type army I'll make the change to that, but until/if that occurs Space Wolves are the best "counts as" option.

Finally, two points addressing some things that others have said ealier in the thread...

Several times folks on this thread have repeated that tired old myth that Squats were modeled on "drunken miget bikers". Jervis Johnson's regretable spreading of that myth aside, it's demonstratably not true and I wish people would educate themselves rather than just repeat rumors. Take a look at this link: http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Squat_-_Collectors_Guide It catalogs the entire Squat range. Going over it you will see that there are few if any "drunken biker" inspired figures. Most Squat models are in fact a melding of RT era Imperial Guard with fantasy Dwarf concepts.

Finally..

did not really understand the strength of the hatred towards these little guys

I do.
In my experience, much of it is a "clueless kiddie" thing rather than any rational reason. Don't get me wrong. Some people have some valid reasons for disliking Squats. Some folks just don't like fantasy Dwarves in any form and others are in favor of the move of GW to try to distance 40k from it's "fantasy in space" roots and thus opoose any further inclusion of fantasy elements. But these seem to be in the minority and most Squat haters seem to be younger players who have never seen a real Squat model in person (let alone an army of them) who repeat the tired old myths and talking points. They tend to be koolaid drinking GW fanboys who's "ranionale" is something along the lines of "well, GW removed them for a reason, so they must suck!". Others fall into that annoying mindset of "new is always good and old is always bad". It's akin to the common teenage mindset when it comes to music that if somethig was not produced in the last six months, it's "old" and thus automaticly not any good. Of course that sort of player is going to dislike Squats.

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:As one of the most notorious Squat fans, I have to weigh in here. I just now noticed this long running thread, so much of what I normally point out in Squat threads has been pointed out by others already. But allow me a few points.

GW themselves caused alot of the hard feelings by the Squat partisans with the very foolish way they handled the removal of the race from the game. By quietly dropping the race with no explanation, wiriting them out of the fluff in a manner akin to Stalin removing purged political enemies from photos, and then showing outright hostility and dirision toward anyone who dared ask about them, GW caused alot of hard feelings that persist to this day. I have two minds about Jervis Johnson's famous "explanation" about the removal of the Squats. While it was nice to finally get a high level member of the studio staff to give a semi-official explanation, the whole post smacks of being a cop-out. Esentially, GW was too lazy to come up with a suitable Space Dwarf concept for 40k? Really? I don't buy it. I also find Johnson's repeating of some of the prevalant myths about the Squats (a joke race etc) annoying. But the bottom line is that the explanation was a half hearted attempt at damage controll that came years too late.

As someone else pointed out early, I'm a bit hopeful these days. With some of the rumors about a Space Dwarf type race as part of the next Tau codex, the return of an allies mechanism to 40k, and GW finally officially mentioning Squats (by that name) in the fluff I think it's POSSIBLE that we might see something in the next few years. It will probably be just a unit or two in the Tau book, but GW would do well to produce an article in White Dwarf with a few units as a new ally force for existing armies. But in the end, given GW's greter tendecy to not announce their future plans, it's anyone's guess.

As for me, I have about 200 Squat models, that take pride of place in my collection. Squats came very close to being my first army in 40k. But the local store I was buying my miniatures from in the 1989-90 period had more Ork models, so I went with them instead. I play my Squats on a regular basis and aside from a small handful of nasty comments by clueless kiddies, they are always a big hit when I trot them out. These days I tend to play my Squats as "counts as" Space Wolves. The higher than espected armour save aside the list is a good fit. The Wolves have a vaugely similar nordic background fluff, they can be configured as a nasty shooting army that is capable of close combat in a pinch, and have the bonus of being a very effective army on the table as well as being a good "fit". If by some crazy chance GW produces a new Space Dwarf type army I'll make the change to that, but until/if that occurs Space Wolves are the best "counts as" option.

Finally, two points addressing some things that others have said ealier in the thread...

Several times folks on this thread have repeated that tired old myth that Squats were modeled on "drunken miget bikers". Jervis Johnson's regretable spreading of that myth aside, it's demonstratably not true and I wish people would educate themselves rather than just repeat rumors. Take a look at this link: http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Squat_-_Collectors_Guide It catalogs the entire Squat range. Going over it you will see that there are few if any "drunken biker" inspired figures. Most Squat models are in fact a melding of RT era Imperial Guard with fantasy Dwarf concepts.

Finally..

did not really understand the strength of the hatred towards these little guys

I do.
In my experience, much of it is a "clueless kiddie" thing rather than any rational reason. Don't get me wrong. Some people have some valid reasons for disliking Squats. Some folks just don't like fantasy Dwarves in any form and others are in favor of the move of GW to try to distance 40k from it's "fantasy in space" roots and thus opoose any further inclusion of fantasy elements. But these seem to be in the minority and most Squat haters seem to be younger players who have never seen a real Squat model in person (let alone an army of them) who repeat the tired old myths and talking points. They tend to be koolaid drinking GW fanboys who's "ranionale" is something along the lines of "well, GW removed them for a reason, so they must suck!". Others fall into that annoying mindset of "new is always good and old is always bad". It's akin to the common teenage mindset when it comes to music that if somethig was not produced in the last six months, it's "old" and thus automaticly not any good. Of course that sort of player is going to dislike Squats.

TR

You sir are amazing.
Out of all the things ive seen on dakka dakka you laid the facts down dude! One thing however I noticed is the "new is better" well many punks I see think this and I cant say a single thing or else they go into a chirs-chan mindset. To tell you the truth on the people who like squats, I always thought that the younger 40k players liked them more than the older 40k vets.
Watch this guys video and then see why I aprove of how you laid this all down, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Hx2HICtbA

You sir are amazing.
Out of all the things ive seen on dakka dakka you laid the facts down dude! One thing however I noticed is the "new is better" well many punks I see think this and I cant say a single thing or else they go into a chirs-chan mindset. To tell you the truth on the people who like squats, I always thought that the younger 40k players liked them more than the older 40k vets.
Watch this guys video and then see why I aprove of how you laid this all down, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Hx2HICtbA

Well, I don't know about "amazing", but I do pride myself on pulling no punches. Not suffering fools very well is both an asset and a flaw of mine. But thanks for the kind words in any event.

As to the clown in the video you posted, he's clearly a complete idiot. I stopped watching and wrote him off as cluelessly repeating things he had heard rather than actually being informed at about the 2:30 mark when he started in with the "short drunken biker" myth.
He also has a potty mouth, which also goes a long way toward harming his credibility...

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:In my experience, much of it is a "clueless kiddie" thing rather than any rational reason. Don't get me wrong. Some people have some valid reasons for disliking Squats. Some folks just don't like fantasy Dwarves in any form and others are in favor of the move of GW to try to distance 40k from it's "fantasy in space" roots and thus opoose any further inclusion of fantasy elements. But these seem to be in the minority and most Squat haters seem to be younger players who have never seen a real Squat model in person (let alone an army of them) who repeat the tired old myths and talking points. They tend to be koolaid drinking GW fanboys who's "ranionale" is something along the lines of "well, GW removed them for a reason, so they must suck!". Others fall into that annoying mindset of "new is always good and old is always bad". It's akin to the common teenage mindset when it comes to music that if somethig was not produced in the last six months, it's "old" and thus automaticly not any good. Of course that sort of player is going to dislike Squats.

I don't wholly disagree with you, and I do feel a small (and probably stout) measure of fondness for the Squats (and indeed for the more quirky days of Rogue Trader), but it's worth pointing out that a good quantity of the 'nostalgia' (and indeed for other long-vanished bits of continuity like Malal) comes from people far too young to remember them the first time around, and who are only interested in them because they're obscure, which is every bit as uncritical and herd-like as the knee-jerk dismissiveness you (not incorrectly) point out.

I think that the mention of the squats as an existent race of abhumans in the new rule book, while not a herald of their return to playable status does at least retcon out the retcon that removed them from the universe as anything other than Tyranid turds.

Trench wrote:Some folks just don't like fantasy Dwarves in any form and others are in favor of the move of GW to try to distance 40k from it's "fantasy in space" roots and thus opoose any further inclusion of fantasy elements...

This is close to why I don't like Squats. I've not got a problem with the 'Science Fantasy' aspects of 40K, and am a big fan of the various flavours of Eldar, but I never liked the Squats. I think the thing that bugged me about them was that they were too reminiscent of fantasy dwarves. If they were a bit more subtle I would probably have gone for them, but they were just to heavy-handedly bearded, mine dwelling dwarves in space. That's how they felt to me, anyway, and that's why I don't miss them.

Jefffar wrote:I think that the mention of the squats as an existent race of abhumans in the new rule book, while not a herald of their return to playable status does at least retcon out the retcon that removed them from the universe as anything other than Tyranid turds.

This.

Squats are officially BACK in the canon, folks, it is right in the new 6th edition rulebook.

Trench-Raider wrote:
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Squat_-_Collectors_Guide It catalogs the entire Squat range. Going over it you
TR

I took al ook at that link..and under unreleased minis for IG...um...I own a couple of copies of a two of them, and use them...but now i want the female missle launcher one lol