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2012/05/23 04:28:35
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
sebster wrote:The big problem I have with the Founding Fathers is how people will say they beleived something, as if the Founding Fathers were a single hive mind, who achieved absolute consensus on how everything ought to be (and of course their conclusions just happen to line up exactly with the speaker).
They were a diverse group of people with a diverse group of beliefs. They didn't reach absolute consensus on the best form of government, but had difference arguments gain political ascendancy at different times. They were the politicians of the day.
The Founding Fathers wanted me to be king. It's in thier secret diaries I can publish some of thier quotes that name me and declare me the one true and divine Catholic King of the Americas.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/23 05:36:59
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
sebster wrote:The big problem I have with the Founding Fathers is how people will say they beleived something, as if the Founding Fathers were a single hive mind, who achieved absolute consensus on how everything ought to be (and of course their conclusions just happen to line up exactly with the speaker).
They were a diverse group of people with a diverse group of beliefs. They didn't reach absolute consensus on the best form of government, but had difference arguments gain political ascendancy at different times. They were the politicians of the day.
The Founding Fathers wanted me to be king. It's in thier secret diaries I can publish some of thier quotes that name me and declare me the one true and divine Catholic King of the Americas.
Ah, but you missed the corollary where they declared me to be space-pope. So bow down and kiss my multihued robes, my space-son.
2012/05/23 06:25:47
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
AustonT wrote:The Founding Fathers wanted me to be king. It's in thier secret diaries I can publish some of thier quotes that name me and declare me the one true and divine Catholic King of the Americas.
Well, given you can find a Jefferson quote to support just about any position imaginable, it really wouldn't surprise if you had some quote of his supporting your claim as the one true and divine Catholic King.
Edit, Or possibly you could just get David Barton to claim that it's true for you. Convince him that you becoming divine King of the Americas* is an essential part of winning the culture war in America, and he'll put it in one of his bestselling books. And that means Beck will love you. It means you'll get to speak at Palin's fundraisers. You'll might not be King of the Americas, but you'll soon be King of the Crazies.
*He's evangelical so you'll have to drop the Catholic bit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/23 06:46:34
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2012/05/23 08:54:52
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2012/05/23 11:17:50
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
Alexzandvar wrote:I am tired of hearing "We should go back the times of our fore fathers", "We need to do it exactly as the founders planned it", "We need to end this socialism and get back to good old George Washington Capitalism".
1. Sorry everyone but while these men were intelligent and brave, this does not make there 300+ year old opinions relevant in today's age.
2012-1783 =229
5. Some of the founding fathers were atheist! *GASP*, they strongly believed in the separation of church and state, and the right for men to not have religion hang over there lives like some requirement or standard.
First atheists: prove it.
Second one statement disagrees with the other. "those old ideas are dumb"..."unless I agree with them"
Did this rant actually have a point?
It supports that, in addition to the fact it should be illegal to vote if you're under 21, you shouldn't be able to voice opinions about the past unless you're over 21?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sirlynchmob wrote:Oh this should be interesting.
In before frazz complaining about christian bashing threads
Grumble grumble!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sirlynchmob wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:Oh this should be interesting.
In before frazz complaining about christian bashing threads
Frazz only jumps in on threads where weiner dogs take over the planet. They'd probably do a better job than us too. Hell, I'd vote a weiner dog into office. Would have done a better job than some idiots who made up their own words, ran away from war and passed college only cause daddy paid off the dean. Oops, guess I'm only talking about one guy. Weiner is better than Bush. I said it.
As long as the Weiner isn't a republican or democrat I'd vote for it.
Wiener Dog Party 2012: They'll stop the Crab People, for YOU!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bromsy wrote:
AustonT wrote:
sebster wrote:The big problem I have with the Founding Fathers is how people will say they beleived something, as if the Founding Fathers were a single hive mind, who achieved absolute consensus on how everything ought to be (and of course their conclusions just happen to line up exactly with the speaker).
They were a diverse group of people with a diverse group of beliefs. They didn't reach absolute consensus on the best form of government, but had difference arguments gain political ascendancy at different times. They were the politicians of the day.
The Founding Fathers wanted me to be king. It's in thier secret diaries I can publish some of thier quotes that name me and declare me the one true and divine Catholic King of the Americas.
Ah, but you missed the corollary where they declared me to be space-pope. So bow down and kiss my multihued robes, my space-son.
I for one welcome our new Space Pope Overlords, and will quietly narc out all who oppose them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/05/23 11:23:10
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/05/23 12:26:04
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
Frazzled wrote:
Wiener Dog Party 2012: They'll stop the Crab People, for YOU!
I'd vote for them!
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2012/05/23 13:55:43
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
The title about "Found Fathers" gave me hope that this was a thread about Maury Povitch DNA testing. imagine my dissapointment when I find it's a poorly thought out thread with some very weak arguments about the founding fathers.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/23 14:22:42
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
I always imagined those people were actors. Never for the life of me could I understand what would compel you to willingly participate in shows like those.
daedalus wrote:I always imagined those people were actors. Never for the life of me could I understand what would compel you to willingly participate in shows like those.
I saw a documentary on these shows so I'm an expert. :-) A lot of the people are paid for exclusive interviews and for them to show up. The people (mostly poor and uneducated) get a free trip to Hollywood and some spending cash for their troubles. Behind the scenes, the producers goad them and tell them to put on a "good show" for their money.
Also, I am severely disappointed in this thread. All this talk of the Founding Fathers and no mention of George Washington's 30 dicks?
Following might be NWS so proceed ahead at etc etc yadda yadda
sirlynchmob wrote:well the ideas the founding fathers borrowed from where around since SPARTA!!!!!!, and that damn england proclimation I cant think of the name of right now so democracy is 2kish years old as well. new testament 1862ish years ago.
Some ideas will stand the test of time, but I didn't think this thread was serious so why nit pick over facts
What ideas from Sparta were those? Hukking chiodren with defects over a cliff, or sending them off to grow up in a camp and learn to be warriors?
they're often credit with the first working democracy and if they had fell then the idea of democracy might have died with them.
Methinks somebody meant to say Athens, not Sparta.
Also, if you think that the ideas of Thomas Paine and Benjamin Franklin, or indeed those of their Enlightenment contemporaries like Rousseau and Locke, are not relevant to the modern world, then you probably haven't read them.
Red Hunters: 2000 points Grey Knights: 2000 points Black Legion: 600 points and counting
2012/05/23 16:35:06
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
juraigamer wrote:The basis' of the founding fathers can't be farther from what's going on with the US' current state.
And yet, people try to convince others that it's the other way around.
I heard Glenn Beck give a diatribe about how he no longer supports Teddy R because he "discorvered" Teddy's progressive policies. I feel like when he started and ran under the "Progressive Party" ticket that should have been a clue a 7 year old would pick up on. He still spouts about how great Abe Lincoln was, I wonder when he'll "discover" that Lincoln was an early Marxist and a Progressive too. People believe what they want to believe, and the thoughts, motivations, and acts of the Founding Fathers were very different from ours, and have to be seen through an anachronistic lens. Making sweeping generalizations like your quote are as untrue as saying that what's going on now is EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers intended; you don't know either way.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/23 18:05:31
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
Glenn Beck is a showman ala Ringling Brothers. If ratings were such that liberals made the ratings he'd make Maddow look like Mussolini.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/05/23 18:07:19
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
Really? The theoretical reactions of a bunch of rich, white slave owners forming a country out of a rebellion in a time centuries ago when women were barely considered people might not be the best way to gauge potential changes for a diverse world power in our day and age? I am shocked and offended.
2012/05/23 18:54:53
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
juraigamer wrote:The basis' of the founding fathers can't be farther from what's going on with the US' current state.
And yet, people try to convince others that it's the other way around.
I heard Glenn Beck give a diatribe about how he no longer supports Teddy R because he "discorvered" Teddy's progressive policies. I feel like when he started and ran under the "Progressive Party" ticket that should have been a clue a 7 year old would pick up on. He still spouts about how great Abe Lincoln was, I wonder when he'll "discover" that Lincoln was an early Marxist and a Progressive too. People believe what they want to believe, and the thoughts, motivations, and acts of the Founding Fathers were very different from ours, and have to be seen through an anachronistic lens. Making sweeping generalizations like your quote are as untrue as saying that what's going on now is EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers intended; you don't know either way.
O_o And yet Teddy R is repeatedly considered one of the best presidents we've ever had!
And I'd say we can look to the writings, letters, other written records of the founding fathers' thoughts re: government and body politic to see what they'd think of our current state.
I mean, I can't, because I haven't read it all, but surely there are some people who can.
2012/05/23 19:22:10
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
It's one of those threads again, so this seems appropriate
The greatest youtube video ever!
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2012/05/23 19:33:04
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/23 19:52:08
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
Alexzandvar wrote:I am tired of hearing "We should go back the times of our fore fathers", "We need to do it exactly as the founders planned it", "We need to end this socialism and get back to good old George Washington Capitalism".
1. Sorry everyone but while these men were intelligent and brave, this does not make there 300+ year old opinions relevant in today's age.
2. An extension on this, taking verses from the Old Testament a more than 2,000 year old book is not a good idea, granted that perhaps, things may have changed in the past couple thousand years. ( Mostly turned towards using bible against gay rights)
3. Not all the founding fathers were all that together in the head, not stupid mind you, but somewhat crazy. Thomas Jefferson was very racist and very hard to deal with at times.
4. They did not take pride in there work all the time, George Washington only became president because he had to.
5. Some of the founding fathers were atheist! *GASP*, they strongly believed in the separation of church and state, and the right for men to not have religion hang over there lives like some requirement or standard.
This man is a heretic, a witch, a liar, a scoundrel, a terrorist and unpatriotic! HANG HIM!!!!!
I agree with you through and through. What really drives me insane about the religious wingnuts is that they go on about the grace of god even though it clearly says in the old testament he was a god all for the rape, murder, pillaging and wide-scale genocide, and not just of his own followers! It's also highly amusing to see people mis-apply Adam Smith and Karl Marx. Example: for some reason people equate the managerial elite as a necessary element of capitalism, even though said managerial elite is what kills and grinds capitalism to a stand-still and is in reality a core element in any Marxist system. Key word? [i]manage[i]ment.
What really gets me though, is that people insist on calling the joke we have for an electoral system (Doesn't matter where in the world you are) "democracy", because, as a point of fact, you vote only once every few years on which crook(s) you want to rob/ruin you. There are never any public refferenda, now public votes on issues, nothing. Polling the public is a load of crap because you can easilly skew the results by pre-emptively selecting only individuals that will speak in a certain way, and political activism is also a load of crap, because instead of creating fairness or equality in circumstances it creates only inequality. A propelry functioning system requires complete disinterest in something so that attempts to satisfy specific parties are not made... (Read: The Unconscious Civilization by JR Saul)
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
2012/05/23 20:38:53
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
Alexzandvar wrote:I am tired of hearing "We should go back the times of our fore fathers", "We need to do it exactly as the founders planned it", "We need to end this socialism and get back to good old George Washington Capitalism".
1. Sorry everyone but while these men were intelligent and brave, this does not make there 300+ year old opinions relevant in today's age.
2012-1783 =229
5. Some of the founding fathers were atheist! *GASP*, they strongly believed in the separation of church and state, and the right for men to not have religion hang over there lives like some requirement or standard.
First atheists: prove it.
Second one statement disagrees with the other. "those old ideas are dumb"..."unless I agree with them"
Did this rant actually have a point?
They were not Atheists, mostly Deists and couple were Unitarian.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/23 20:39:30
5th Company 2000 pts
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2012/05/23 20:56:12
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
I personally dont see whats so bad about holding our Forefathers in such high regard. They actually had enough and put a stop to the BS that was going on at the time. Unlike us currently, we sit at our computers, bitching on forums and pretending to be well educated badasses, and then log off and watch some TJ Hooker or something. They actually did something that mattered, I can respect that
2012/05/23 21:06:39
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
KingCracker wrote:I personally dont see whats so bad about holding our Forefathers in such high regard. They actually had enough and put a stop to the BS that was going on at the time. Unlike us currently, we sit at our computers, bitching on forums and pretending to be well educated badasses, and then log off and watch some TJ Hooker or something. They actually did something that mattered, I can respect that
There is a difference between holding something in high regard and transforming it into some monolithic deity worship.
There were also people then that didn't do that much as well as people complaining that people used to get more done in the past. There are also people alive today that get things done and do things to put an end to what they see as the BS of our time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/23 21:08:18
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/05/23 21:28:18
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
KingCracker wrote:I personally dont see whats so bad about holding our Forefathers in such high regard. They actually had enough and put a stop to the BS that was going on at the time. Unlike us currently, we sit at our computers, bitching on forums and pretending to be well educated badasses, and then log off and watch some TJ Hooker or something. They actually did something that mattered, I can respect that
Now see here, KC-that's too rational. Internet pissing and witch hunts are far more enjoyable. I find I can agree on going back to how the forefathers acted for one reason: the wigs they wore. I think England does it still, and I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that Obama would be cooler if he rocked a big, white wig.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
2012/05/23 21:36:16
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
KingCracker wrote:I personally dont see whats so bad about holding our Forefathers in such high regard. They actually had enough and put a stop to the BS that was going on at the time. Unlike us currently, we sit at our computers, bitching on forums and pretending to be well educated badasses, and then log off and watch some TJ Hooker or something. They actually did something that mattered, I can respect that
Now see here, KC-that's too rational. Internet pissing and witch hunts are far more enjoyable. I find I can agree on going back to how the forefathers acted for one reason: the wigs they wore. I think England does it still, and I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that Obama would be cooler if he rocked a big, white wig.
I think your right, as far as the wigs go anyways. At least, thats how they do it on the UK version of Law and Order. The judges and whatnots. Strange people those Brits
2012/05/23 22:56:09
Subject: Re:People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
KingCracker wrote:I personally dont see whats so bad about holding our Forefathers in such high regard. They actually had enough and put a stop to the BS that was going on at the time. Unlike us currently, we sit at our computers, bitching on forums and pretending to be well educated badasses, and then log off and watch some TJ Hooker or something. They actually did something that mattered, I can respect that
respecting our predecessors is one thing, going back and using their mentality, methodology, reasoning and solutions to problems is another. By and large, people, behavior and politics don't change, what does change is the speed with which things happen, and the volume of different factions they have to deal with. NOW! all that said, as time has gone on, enough has changed over 300 years that the original unifying forces behind the US are no longer valid as the political circumstances have changed. All those things the fathers of the United States fought after.... wellllll... by and large, it's been had, and as the media spins it, everyone still has it. If you had those exact individuals with their mentalities again today, they would be part of that fringe crouwd, gunslinging and trying to tear down the country and rebuild it from the west, because I just don't see that they would agree with the current system.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH! while were on this topic, I would like to educate you about John A. MacDonald!
He is one of our founding fathers, and he's an interesting character.
For starters, he has a mop of unruly curly hair, and a massive nose visible from the far side of the rockies. The man was inarguably a bigot, and a drunkard like you wouldn't believe. I'm not joking, he was a disastrous, terrible drunk. As it happens, during one particular campaigning evening, he and his Liberal counterpart were goign to argue their points and receive questions from the crowd. As per usual, he stumbles onto the venue, very very late, and very very drunk. He stumbles to his podium in the closing moments of his counterpart's speech. When the fellow finished his oration, our MacDonald, unable to restrain himself any further, proceeded to retch across the entire podium. At the very least, he WAS a statesman, so he "disguised" it as disgust at the Liberal's platform.
So do I REALLY want to venerate this man that's the father of our Canadian confederacy? I say no, because, I'd be happier in a canada without quebec, and because he really was a drunken lout.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/23 23:07:13
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
2012/05/23 23:59:36
Subject: People need to stop treating the "Found Fathers" like gods.
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