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skrulnik wrote:
And where in the Level 7 description does it mention space? I read it as an Area 51 type setting.

It is an Area 51 type setting. People just got in their head that PP doing sci-fi meant 40K equivalent/competition, despite being told early on that it wouldn't be that.

I think it's because people keep thinking PP is a miniatures game company and not just a game company.

It is an underground facility built in the 50's by Nixon and his cronies. The background can be found in the PP company rag issue 42.

Those D&D minis have to be produced still, you probably meant they did not have to be designed and sculpted, no? The cost of designing a set of miniatures for a board game such as this isn't as high as you'd think for a company of PP's size. But even ignoring the price, it's the fact that they're missing in the first place is surprising. You know, PP, minis, they go hand in hand like Cameron and big bucks.

Whether it's the far future or the near future is impossible to tell at this point, but you know what I meant - call it X-Files 20XX or Arkham Horror 20XX if you will, doesn't change a thing.

Geez, you people are quick posters.

-DE- wrote:You know, PP, minis, they go hand in hand like Cameron and big bucks.

You do know that PP didn't produce minis until 2 years after opening, right? They started with a D&D supplement.

Yes, I know, thank you for that piece of trivia! What now, you gonna tell me GW started with a mag about RPG's and a set of rules for someone else's minis? Why does it matter now?

-DE- wrote: Why does it matter now?

Because they're STILL not 100% miniatures, as shown with 2 card games.

This whole PP is a Miniatures company isn't true, they're a GAMES company.

Hell, only half their products(WM/H, Monpoc, Grind) have to do with minis.

Play nice kids.

Yeah, enough with this one-upmanship of "but they do produce things besides minis like this, this, and this!" I know, everyone knows, no need to keep hammering it down. Facts are, it's Warmahordes what keeps them afloat, not the currently dead IK RPG or BODGERS. Whether you call them a games company or a miniatures company doesn't change that. My question is, what them producing some niche non-minis games does have to do with Level 7 and people's expectations of the first SF game by PP? And don't tell me it's not SF, 'cause we only learned that, like, just now, and even then it's not necessarily true.

-DE- wrote:My question is, what them producing some niche non-minis games does have to do with Level 7 and people's expectations of the first SF game by PP? And don't tell me it's not SF, 'cause we only learned that, like, just now, and even then it's not necessarily true.

No one said it's not SF, don't know where you got that.

As for people's expectations, people continued to stubbornly believe it would be a Minis game despite being told LAST YEAR that it wouldn't be.

skrulnik wrote:All those disliking the lack of minis, keep in mind that this is a $55 game. Good price for a foray into boardgames.
All those that have minis end up at $80+. Descent and Super Dungeon Explore all are at $100.
I'm betting that they were thinking about the price point during design of this.

If they put the rules up on the site, I will definitely give them a look.
I am also going to see what is being said on Boardgamegeek, where they do not expect a game to come with miniatures.
I get more of a Resident Evil vibe from the description than Space Hulk.

Looking forward to hearing more about this.

I'd put this game more into the level of Talisman or Dungeon Run, both of which are priced around the $50 mark and both of which include minatures... To compare this to Descent or Super Dungeon Explore is just silly. To be completly honest, for what you get with this game I'd actually expect to see it to be priced closer to Fantasy Flights Android or Elder Sign, which would put it around the $35 level.

Looking at what comes in the box and the size of the box (12.75x12.75x3) I'm expecting that the "47 Map Tiles" are going to be printed on cardstock instead of chip board. To me your just not getting much value out of this game. Couple a lack of perceived value with the basically golden age of boardgames that the hobby is currently going through and you have a recipe for an underwhelming release. I honestly would have expected more from PP on this, they need to build themselves a name in the boardgame world and unfotrunatly this is not the way to do it.

That's the point, the game doesn't sound terribly original nor is it good value for money compared to other boardgames. It appears they wish to ride the company's logo straight to store shelves... To me, cardstock chits and stands are simply not good enough in this day and age for a game of this type to entice gamers.

PP said it would be a board game followed by other games, which, at least to me, sounded like they wanted to start off small and develop the universe piece by piece, eventually arriving at a full-blown wargame. Judging by the first offering this is not the case, which is a shame, I for one would've loved an SF wargame by PP.

After reading the promo material in NQ 42 I was hoping for a 50's themed sci-fi game a-la that X-Com game they're doing now.

I did not know the current version of Talisman had minis. It is $60.
Android is $60 not $35.
Elder Sign, at $35, has no board, it is basically a card game.
Arkham Horror has no minis and similar looking components, and is also $60
Incursion from Grindhouse is all card, with board and card standees, and costs $50.
I think people are under-valuing the cost of printed board and cards.

To compare this to Descent or Super Dungeon Explore is just silly.

Why? Outside of them having miniatures, they are still boardgames. The miniatures cause them to have a higher price point.
I imagine with card standees, Descent would be around the $60 mark, in today's market.

I have to be honest, I was looking froward to "LEVEL 7", but this... I'm a bit disappointed.

It just feels... dated. I mean, it has such a resemblance to X-Files and Resident Evil, but those things are artifacts of the 90s. I mean, heck, the Resident Evil film turned 10(!) a few months ago.

As for the price point, it seems only reasonable to compare it to something like Sedition Wars: Battle for Alabaster, and when that has an MSRP of $89.99 (so $35 more), you just seem to be getting so much more value for money.

This isn't a hate on Matt Wilson comment, I'm a big fan of him and have been collecting some of his art since his days at MtG. I just don't feel any real excitement for this thing, and was really hoping I would be. Then again, blessing in disguise, don't end up dividing my Warmachine/Hordes budget!

skrulnik wrote:I did not know the current version of Talisman had minis. It is $60.
Android is $60 not $35.
Elder Sign, at $35, has no board, it is basically a card game.
Arkham Horror has no minis and similar looking components, and is also $60
Incursion from Grindhouse is all card, with board and card standees, and costs $50.
I think people are under-valuing the cost of printed board and cards.

To compare this to Descent or Super Dungeon Explore is just silly.

Why? Outside of them having miniatures, they are still boardgames. The miniatures cause them to have a higher price point.
I imagine with card standees, Descent would be around the $60 mark, in today's market.

When I said Android I ment to say Infiltration.....

The reasons why I think that this game is better compared to Elder Sign and Inflitration is that your getting roughly the same number of componants.

Comparing the box contents of Level 7 to Arkham Horror makes no sense at all...... The current printing of Arkham horror comes with the following:

Components (Revised Printing):

1 Rule Book
1 Game Board
1 First Player Marker
5 Dice
16 Investigator Sheets
16 Investigator Markers
16 Plastic Investigator Stands
198 Investigator Status Tokens:
56 Money Tokens
35 Sanity Tokens
35 Stamina Tokens
48 Clue Tokens
24 Skill Tokens
189 Investigator Cards:
44 Common Items
39 Unique Items
40 Spells
20 Skills
11 Allies
35 Special Cards:
8 Retainers
8 Silver Lodge Memberships
8 Bank Loans
8 Blessing/Curse Cards
3 Deputy Cards
8 Ancient One Sheets
20 Doom Tokens
179 Ancient One Cards:
63 Location Cards
67 Mythos Cards
49 Gate Cards
60 Monster Markers
16 Gate Markers
3 Activity Markers
3 Explored Markers
1 Terror Track Marker
6 Closed Markers

Compare that to whats going to be included in Level 7 and you can see where I'm coming from when I say this is a poor value.

If anything I think your overvaluing how much it costs to have chipboard and cardstock components printed on the scale that Fantasy Flight and PP would be printing at. If you don't belive me look at what a base copy of the upcoming reprint of the Steve Jackson game OGRE gets you...

Have you ever opened a copy of Descent or Super Dungeon Explore? Without the minatures in either of those games there really isn't a game, the appeal of the game is in the massive amount of stuff that you get. Likewise with both of those games the majority of the cost of the game is the production of the minatures, not the other components.

To me this game theme and what I've seen of playstyle wise is Dungeon Run in the future... Except it doesnt have the awsome componants and it costs more.

Platuan4th wrote:

-DE- wrote: Why does it matter now?

Because they're STILL not 100% miniatures, as shown with 2 card games.

So that's REALLY your argument that they aren't a 100% minis game? The two card games theyve produced. Come on now. Nintendo puts out a magazine and some action figures occasionally, so they aren't a video game company either. The fact remains that PP is known for their minis and the lack of them makes this package much less appealing, especially considering the other competition on the market.

Regarding Incursion---I wonder how many people actually buy the paper version instead of the one that comes with minis.

AegisGrimm wrote:It looks interesting, but I'd rather spend the $100 to get Sedition Wars. Then I get a boardgame vibe but with awesome minis.

That is exactly what I thought too.

I hope this game is great.

As a lover of board games and miniatures, it is rather perplexing that a company that makes great game designs AND great models didnt put a small handful of models in the box.

Might not whet the whistle of the Miniature gaming crowd, but the boardgaming crowd at BGG might like it.

Sadly the buzz there for this is weak as visiting this site is the first time I heard of it.

Though you guys really might want to wait and try it before poo-pooing it. I agree that there really should be a couple sculpts in that box, but if the game is good then that more than makes up for a lack of models.

The price is somewhat comparable with other games that lack models.

I'm going to say straight up that this is a good idea.

PP has been doing the miniatures business for a while now, but for any company to survive they need to diversify.

Not to mention, so long as the game gets decent reviews, I'll pick it up since co-op games are very well liked in my area.

PP has had issues with board games in the past. Grind had a lot of problems and I got burned on it, but it was a well made game at least.

Also, you people are underestimating the cost of printing and making plastic miniatures. Besides, if the cardstock is of a good enough quality, I honestly don't care if there are miniatures or not.

Meh...

Vertrucio wrote:I'm going to say straight up that this is a good idea.

PP has been doing the miniatures business for a while now, but for any company to survive they need to diversify.

Not to mention, so long as the game gets decent reviews, I'll pick it up since co-op games are very well liked in my area.

PP has had issues with board games in the past. Grind had a lot of problems and I got burned on it, but it was a well made game at least.

Also, you people are underestimating the cost of printing and making plastic miniatures. Besides, if the cardstock is of a good enough quality, I honestly don't care if there are miniatures or not.

I dunno... I mean, while diversity in offerings can be a good thing, going outside your core competency is dangerous. Remember when Swatch watches decided to make cars? Probably not...

Towards that point, by your own admission, "PP has had issues with board games in the past", which inclines educated consumers to be wary. Non-educated PP fans will tend to be fans of the two things that define their current successes: well written and balanced rules sets, and a distinctive art style and high quality level in publications and miniatures (subject to taste).

This... doesn't appear to appeal to either of those things. It's not a competitive game, it's "a semi-cooperative, story-driven survival-horror board game for 1–4 players with nerves of steel and a willingness to confront the impossible", whatever that means.

The art style is also very different then previous offerings. Like I said, I am a big Matt Wilson (and Andrea Uderzo, and Eva Widermann, etc, etc...) fan; this... looks like a very different aesthetic. Note, my problem isn't that the look is different, per se, it's that, unlike PPs printed offerings, the art is so... small. The character tokens look tiny, and other then that, the cards look crazy simple. Yeah, I get that they are functional, but... meh.

Put simply, PP is known (rightly) for 2 things: good rules and good art/minis. The rules will be what they are, but in the art department, I look at this and then I look at other current offerings, and I just don't feel the value.

Platuan4th wrote:

-DE- wrote:My question is, what them producing some niche non-minis games does have to do with Level 7 and people's expectations of the first SF game by PP? And don't tell me it's not SF, 'cause we only learned that, like, just now, and even then it's not necessarily true.

No one said it's not SF, don't know where you got that.

As for people's expectations, people continued to stubbornly believe it would be a Minis game despite being told LAST YEAR that it wouldn't be.

Oh I don't know, maybe PP's own website..

http://privateerpress.com/level7

Welcome to LEVEL 7, a sinister science fiction setting where nefarious conspiracies conceal the government’s collaboration with an unspeakable alien menace.

...You do realise Plan said it WAS Sci Fi, right?

I'd have to try it.

I don't really get into board games all that much.

I've never played WarmaHordes, have no special love nor hate for PP, and am a (lapsed) miniatures gamer. I opened the thread hoping for miniature awesomeness and saw card counters.

So I've gone from "hmm.. what's this? Boardgame from the Warmachine guys? Looks interesting!"
to
"No miniatures? I won't bother, then."
in about 2 minutes.
ah well.

I feel like I have to throw my two cents in here. When I first heard about level 7 I fully expected that it would be a setting that would essentially be the PP competition to 40k, or at the very least a rich sci-fi setting in itself to put them into that market.

I'm really kind of dissapointed. I think the problem isn't that they made this game, but people were wanting much, much more. This might be a great game, but many of us actually wanted a 40k alternative from PP, and it almost sounded like that was coming.

I have to admit I haven't paid much attention to level 7s progress after the announcement as well though, so my imagination has had plenty of time to speculate without facts.

I think it looks cool so far. Will have to see how it plays. A d while minis are cool, so is saving money. If you want minis, it's not like there is a shortage of companies making pretty much any kind of mini you might want.

AduroT wrote:I think it looks cool so far. Will have to see how it plays. A d while minis are cool, so is saving money. If you want minis, it's not like there is a shortage of companies making pretty much any kind of mini you might want.

Saving money by not adding minis is great, and I would be much less critical of this game if it was a $35 game. Instead its a $55 game that gives you less value then other similar games on the market.

Platuan4th wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:

This game is lazy, lets jump on the space hulk/ tiled board game bandwagon... With nothing of any originality to it.

I'll let Ed know you think so next time I talk to him, I'm sure he'll appreciate it after all that overtime he put in designing the art for it.

Was releasing the Bodger games back when card games were popular "lazy" too?

Edit: Ed's official response: "Oh no... We also have dice and cards. Doom! And we printed it with ink! And wrote the rules using words!!"

I love Ed so much, I'd have his man babies if we weren't both married.

See, thats the thing, though.

Your pulling out your E peen for a meh game that should be a step up in the gaming world. "I'll let Ed know.... " WTF is that, anyway?

He going to come on over and beat me up, too? Yeah, sure. Whatever.

Tiles, for 55 bucks? You need to take off the heroworship goggles and look at this from MY perspective. A guy that you know... buys healthy amounts of games, otherwise known as a customer.

You need to tell him what a bang up idea this was to spout on this for over a year, then come out with vaporware.

Matter of fact, yes, Call him up and tell him it IS a suck idea, and that the game is Meh. Tell him I said so, and get in touch with me to make it right.

PP is not my pal. If "Ed" can't take a little healthy criticism, then too bad, because Page 5 goes both ways.

THIS game was touted out last year like a "OOOH AHHH!!!" like all of PP stuff is. You come out here with.... that. AND expect it to put on laurals? Then you pull out the E peen " I know this guy" card?

Look at what PP has been doing, and then tell me a box of tiles for 55 bucks is something to dance over.

You are wrong, this is a joke, and you can tell "Ed " to put the minis in it, or even sell the minis FOR it, and call it a day.

You saying PP isn't a minis company is smoking sprue. PP IS a miniatures company with almost a weekly compilation of NEW and evolving gaming MINIATURES...

THIS? This stuff is bland cornflakes.

PP is a better gaming company then to just push something this pale, and think they can get away from it. Its lazy, and the effort is not there to be seen, regardless of how you want to defend this.

Grot 6 wrote:
Your pulling out your E peen for a meh game that should be a step up in the gaming world. "I'll let Ed know.... " WTF is that, anyway?

I'd have reacted the same way to you saying it about SkeletonKey products, too. It's not about the game, it's about the implications you're putting on a friend. Ed Bourelle's been doing game tiles(mostly for RPGs) for a long time, way longer than he's been working for PP. It's what he was known for in the gaming industry and part of the reason that PP hired him in the first place(his revamping of the MKI league system being another). It's hardly "lazy" for them to make a game that uses that resource in a time when games using tiles are popular.

If that comes across as epeen waving, so be it, but don't let it be said I'm not fiercely loyal to my friends.