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KingCracker wrote: If your going to be a racist, at least be a well informed racist would ya?

Done.

I nearly died laughing when I called for Linda and she walked into the living room looked me dead in the eye and said,
"What can Brown do for you?"

gregor_xenos wrote:

CoI wrote:I'm in a similar boat to KC. My uncle, who I was always really close to has always been rather racist, but to my young ears I never heard it, or realized what was being said. Then I grew up and married an Arab woman... well after almost 10 years we're talking again

Wow.... wish my wife wouldn't talk to me for 10 years.

Have you tried forgetting your wedding anniversary?


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p_gray99 wrote:Ok, some of the British top-end cars are alright. But other than them and strawberries, just don't bother.

And Aeroplane engines. Our high quality stuff is up there as some of the best in the world, it's just that we fail at making it cheaper without fething it up.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:Ok, some of the British top-end cars are alright. But other than them and strawberries, just don't bother.

And Aeroplane engines. Our high quality stuff is up there as some of the best in the world, it's just that we fail at making it cheaper without fething it up.

Basically this...
Anything we make cheap is already doomed to break as soon as it hits the design stage.
The expensive stuff we make is somewhat more awesome... if not also quite expensive...

dæl wrote:
Britain allowed Europeans to work here. Just as we were allowed to work in Europe. That isn't an "open door" policy, it is a free market policy, which is inherently conservative, as is using cheaper immigrant labour. Companies employed Eastern Europeans because they believe, based on anecdotal evidence, that they have a stronger work ethic.

Saying white dont work hard is similar to saying black commit more rapes, it might even have some statistical basis, but its blatant bigotry.

Equal opportunities means allowing people to be seen on their own merits rather than based on their ethnicity. In an ideal world equal opportunities would apply for all, transparently they do not, but annoyingly those who propose equality often do not either. New Labour was all for equality, but didnt actually practice it. Ethnic only recruiting is a good example, doing nothing when companies blatantly flouted their own race relations laws en masse is also suspicious.

So, you approve, or at least do not oppose, the ideology that eastern Europeans have a 'stronger work ethic' than British people so British people should be disciminated against directly based on assumptions of their personality linked to their ethnicity.

dæl wrote:
As for the Labour party trying to make the population less English, that's BNP nonsense,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Accusing those who bring this up as 'racist', or even Neo-Nazi/BNP is a common propaganda tool, it makes people too afraid to speak up until they find relevations like this.
This wasn't the revelation from last week though, that occurred on BBC Radio 4 Any Questions.

dæl wrote:
Labour has massive support by the English, Welsh and Scots, and I think you may need to get yourself a tin foil hat.

I wouldnt call it massive support. This is why Labour is scared of a Uk breakup, without Scottish votes they will be in almost permanent opposition.

dæl wrote:
It is obvious you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about, you carry on with such nonsense if you so wish, but please don't present what you've read in a BNP leaflet as fact.

I repeat you have no problem if British people should be disciminated against directly based on assumptions of their personality linked to their ethnicity......and you are accusing we of being a bigot.

Am I a Company, or in charge of one? No, therefore my statement doesn't apply to me does it. So you accuse me of bigotry if you wish (why not after the "moral equivalent of a holocaust denier" accusation), but at least read what you're complaining about, you will look less of an idiot if you do.


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And on your conspiracy theory, to quote the adviser "there was no plot."

dæl wrote:Am I a Company, or in charge of one? No, therefore my statement doesn't apply to me does it.

You accuse those who critique discrimination by companies concerned as getting their opinions from the BNP.
Burying head in the sand about discrimination while very rudely accusing others who critique said discrimination of being associated with racist extremist parties is not only hypocritical it's nonsensical.

Yet still you do so, which accusing me of not having 'the faintest idea what you are talking about', and looking like an 'idiot'.

dæl wrote:
So you accuse me of bigotry if you wish (why not after the "moral equivalent of a holocaust denier" accusation), but at least read what you're complaining about, you will look less of an idiot if you do.

I did, hence the link provided.
I tried to find a link to the story of the factory that imported c2000 eastern Europeans while Gordon Brown was PM are refused to hire any locals because they had inferior 'work ethic'. I cannot find it, though it was front page in many newspapers, it was IIRC in 2008-9.
It flied in the face of all New Labour purportedly stood for, yet Brown did nothing. I argue this is because actual 'equality and diversity' was not what New Labour was after, diversity - yes, equality - depends on who you are . The link provided backs this up.

Now I have replied with more effort than you deserve, but do so in the event someone reads your post and mistakenly believes you have a point to make. I have actually washed my hands of you dael,

Orlanth wrote:

dæl wrote:Am I a Company, or in charge of one? No, therefore my statement doesn't apply to me does it.

You accuse those who critique discrimination by companies concerned as getting their opinions from the BNP.
Burying head in the sand about discrimination while very rudely accusing others who critique said discrimination of being associated with racist extremist parties is not only hypocritical it's nonsensical.

Yet still you do so, which accusing me of not having 'the faintest idea what you are talking about', and looking like an 'idiot'.

dæl wrote:
So you accuse me of bigotry if you wish (why not after the "moral equivalent of a holocaust denier" accusation), but at least read what you're complaining about, you will look less of an idiot if you do.

I did, hence the link provided.
I tried to find a link to the story of the factory that imported c2000 eastern Europeans while Gordon Brown was PM are refused to hire any locals because they had inferior 'work ethic'. I cannot find it, though it was front page in many newspapers, it was IIRC in 2008-9.
It flied in the face of all New Labour purportedly stood for, yet Brown did nothing. I argue this is because actual 'equality and diversity' was not what New Labour was after, diversity - yes, equality - depends on who you are . The link provided backs this up.

Now I have replied with more effort than you deserve, but do so in the event someone reads your post and mistakenly believes you have a point to make. I have actually washed my hands of you dael,

I accuse people who claim grand Machiavellian conspiracies to wipe out the indigenous English population of getting their ideas from the far right. Yeah, because they do.

The link you provided took the adviser way out of context and you will notice, in the link I provided, that he distanced himself from that article and claimed himself misquoted. Which implies that your argument is based on a falsehood dreamt up by a right wing publication.

By all means play your "screw you guys, I'm going home" card that you like to when you can't actually back up your opinions, it doesn't make you less wrong, in fact it makes you more ridiculous.

CT GAMER wrote:

KingCracker wrote:A couple of his posts grabbed my attention pretty hard and then made me laugh at just how stupid and ill informed my cousin really is. In the first post he was yammering on about how he cant stand Mexicans and how they are stealing American jobs and stealing our country

Frazz is your cousin?

that. I hate everyone equally.

dæl wrote:
I accuse people who claim grand Machiavellian conspiracies to wipe out the indigenous English population of getting their ideas from the far right. Yeah, because they do.

there is misreading a post, then there is this. There really is no level you wont sink to. Wipe out the English population?!?

dæl wrote:
The link you provided took the adviser way out of context and you will notice, in the link I provided, that he distanced himself from that article and claimed himself misquoted.

There was a lot of damage control afterwards, New Labour still are. Hence when on Any Questions last week the New Labour panelist shouted down the commentary.


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Frazzled wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

KingCracker wrote:A couple of his posts grabbed my attention pretty hard and then made me laugh at just how stupid and ill informed my cousin really is. In the first post he was yammering on about how he cant stand Mexicans and how they are stealing American jobs and stealing our country

Frazz is your cousin?

that. I hate everyone equally.

Nice pot shot, poor Frazzie, but nice pot shot.

I do what I can.

Orlanth wrote:

dæl wrote:
I accuse people who claim grand Machiavellian conspiracies to wipe out the indigenous English population of getting their ideas from the far right. Yeah, because they do.

there is misreading a post, then there is this. There really is no level you wont sink to. Wipe out the English population?!?

So your citing of Native Americans was pure coincidence? Nice emotive example to randomly appear.

Orlanth wrote:

dæl wrote:
The link you provided took the adviser way out of context and you will notice, in the link I provided, that he distanced himself from that article and claimed himself misquoted.

There was a lot of damage control afterwards, New Labour still are. Hence when on Any Questions last week the New Labour panelist shouted down the commentary.

Ah, so when an adviser gets misquoted in a right wing rag, that's fact. But when he himself claims to have been misquoted, that's "damage control." I will say again, it is European policy to have free movement of individuals among EU countries. Guess who signed up for such a policy, I'll give you a clue, it wasn't Labour.

Hordini wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Hordini wrote:If you want, since he's your cousin and you were good friends, maybe you should talk to him about it? It's quite possible he just doesn't know any better or hasn't really thought much about the things he was posting. I mean, obviously it's your call, but maybe you could be a good influence on him.

There is no fix for stupid. I have tried to talk to people about this before. All you do is alienate yourself from them even further. You find friendly gatherings uncomfortable when people starting spewing bs like KC's cousin. Then you start distancing yourself from them and when they call you out, you become weird and stuck up because you have different views.

In the end you stay away from them all the same.

You're right that there's no fix for stupid, but the point is sometimes people aren't stupid, just ignorant or inexperienced or they grew up somewhere without a lot of racial diversity. Some of those people have just never been challenged about racism or haven't really put much thought into it. Sometimes people say things and don't even realize others consider it racist. You'll never find out which it is though if you just antagonize them, call them racists and give your buddies a round of high-fives for pointing out they made a racist comment.

I'm not saying it's the easy thing to do, but sometimes it's worth doing.

True enough. I guess you really need to find out if the person is ignorant or just plain stupid first. It is a hard line to find but if you can it would be worth finding it.

So in the thread about the Nazi deviantart 40k club, you were like "who cares if he's racist, I like his art"

but now you're complaining that your cousin is racist?

You're a hypocrite!

KhornePysker wrote:So in the thread about the Nazi deviantart 40k club, you were like "who cares if he's racist, I like his art"

but now you're complaining that your cousin is racist?

You're a hypocrite!

You could argue that someone's beliefs doesn't necessarily reduce the quality of their art whereas their beliefs may well affect their personality...
Not to defend Nazi's or anything...

purplefood wrote:

KhornePysker wrote:So in the thread about the Nazi deviantart 40k club, you were like "who cares if he's racist, I like his art"

but now you're complaining that your cousin is racist?

You're a hypocrite!

You could argue that someone's beliefs doesn't necessarily reduce the quality of their art whereas their beliefs may well affect their personality...
Not to defend Nazi's or anything...

Besides there is a lot to learn from the art of 20th century totalitarian states.

I love Soviet art, I have less love for the Soviet Union.




i had a massive poster of Yuri Gagarin (not the one above) a friend brought back from Moscow during a school trip in the 80's. Though I am a fan of Gagarin and the Soviet Space program as much as Soviet art.

Fascist filmmakers like Leni Riefenstahl added a lot to the art of cinematography.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Will

The above film Triumph of the will is considered a masterpiece, much of cinematography today has its roots in it. As a quick example both Star Wars and 2001:A Space Odyssey. I would not see any reason to accuse Lucas or Kubrick of Nazsim because they learned the lessons in cinematography Riefenstahl teaches us.

If that is not enough most students of politics and oratory study Hitler. He is considered to be one of the most skilled orators in human history, possibly as good or better than Cicero. Though Cicero didnt have the advantage of speaker systems and cinematography. Even Churchill who was a most impressive speaker pales in comparison to Hitlers skill. Hitler is studied quietly for obvious reasons, but he is studied by anyone who wants to develop the orators art seriously.

This is getting a bit too tense on all sides. Please remember that the site rules apply in the Off-Topic section. Keep your arguments to criticizing people's positions rather than the people themselves.

Thanks!

I'd argue that Churchill's oratory was at least equal to Hitler's...

Hitler is pretty much the guide sheet for all modern politicians. He made huge use of the radio and flew from town to town in order to talk directly to the people, something which his opponents did not do.

As a politician and speaker Hitler was a master.


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purplefood wrote:I'd argue that Churchill's oratory was at least equal to Hitler's...

Churchill was good but would he have been able to persuade the people of Britain to start World War 2?

He was great at being stubborn in the face of defeat but I would put it forth that it is a lot harder to persuade your people to support starting a war purely as an offensive than it is to persuade them to join a war to defend yourself or your ally (in Britain's case, Poland).

Did you know he studied German opera of the time to get the speech patterns, and most importantly, gestures down. There are even pics in one show he took of himself to perfect his gestures.

Frazzled wrote:Did you know he studied German opera of the time to get the speech patterns, and most importantly, gestures down. There are even pics in one show he took of himself to perfect his gestures.

He would also practice in front of a mirror.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Hitler is pretty much the guide sheet for all modern politicians. He made huge use of the radio and flew from town to town in order to talk directly to the people, something which his opponents did not do.

As a politician and speaker Hitler was a master.


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purplefood wrote:I'd argue that Churchill's oratory was at least equal to Hitler's...

Churchill was good but would he have been able to persuade the people of Britain to start World War 2?

He was great at being stubborn in the face of defeat but I would put it forth that it is a lot harder to persuade your people to support starting a war purely as an offensive than it is to persuade them to join a war to defend yourself or your ally (in Britain's case, Poland).

He managed to turn a totally demoralised nation who had just witnessed their military suffer a total defeat and only escape by the skin of their teeth to suck it up and out last Germany's bombing for another few years...
I'd say he is Hitler's equal especially when there were many people simply expecting Britain to roll over at that point...

That said this is getting OT so we'd best stop before Manchu comes back...

One of Churchill's sayings was, "Jaw, jaw is better then war, war."

I think he never would have tried to persuade the British Empire into a purely offensive war.


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That said, there is no doubt that Hitler had a massive charisma, or "baraka", if you will.

So did Steve Jobs.

Oh, KingCrackers cousin. You so racist.

I used to live down in a small town in Texas where my family and I got a lot of dirty looks and hate for being Mexican. It was a lot worse for my siblings and I at school where we heard the same racial slurs from the same people everyday. All of that didn't really bother me because I simply ignored the insults, I don't want to stoop to their moronic level and spit racial slurs. Funny thing once I did snap and went up to some guy asked him if he had a issue, he simply mummbled a faint "no" and walked away.

A couple of weeks ago the American Arab festival in Dearborn, Michigan was, as it is every year, confronted by the same old collection of bigots, calling on them to repent their religion and embrace Jesus. Apart from being incredibly nasty and offensive (the bigots had among other things a pig's head on a stick), it was also incredibly stupid, as the majority of Arab Americans are Christian, not Muslim.

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2012/06/how_not_to_evan.html

That's kind of the thing about racism that a lot of people miss - it makes you stupid.

There are unfortunately a great deal of racist people where I live. Something I find surprising given Boulder's reputation for being a tolerant hippie town.
In the end it just boils down to fear. People fear what is different, hate what they fear, destroy what they hate.

Squigsquasher wrote:I really, REALLY hate racists, almost as much as I hate homophobes.

The "BUY AMERICAN!" thing pisses me off beyond belief (I know, I'm British so I can't really comment) as indeed does any variation on saying we must buy something just because it's from our home country. Heck, the Reliant Robin is a British car, but I'd still rather buy a Honda Civic.

The other thing that really annoys me is when people say that when a person of a particular race does something illegal, cruel or otherwise objectionable, that they did it because they are of a particular race. Chinese guy steals a car? Someone says it's because the Chinese are naturally lawless and immoral. Black guy beats up his wife? Someone says it's because black people are inherently misogynistic and violent. It really gets my goat.

/rant.

QFT, this type of racisum is especially bad around the east midlands around sheffield (is this in the east midlands? not quite sure) and nottingham areas, now i have a perticually "loved" neighbour whos "all partriotic" when it suits him, you know the type home cinima in the loft without planning permission in a counsil house and on benifits for apprently being unable to walk more than 50 yards, (one of the requirements for getting a blue badge and you get the gist) had a perticualler offensive rant set off by the england/ukraine game the other day... well blow me backwards and call me an ork, in almost 23 years i have NEVER heard such lanquage! It would make an Ork blush! (if you havent guessed, im duel English/Ukrainian) then he started going on about the polish stealing our jobs all those "terroist" arabs (this one actually hit a nerve since my misses is morroccan) want to take over england and kill everyone etc etc, you get the point.

deathholydeath wrote:There are unfortunately a great deal of racist people where I live. Something I find surprising given Boulder's reputation for being a tolerant hippie town.
In the end it just boils down to fear. People fear what is different, hate what they fear, destroy what they hate.

It's fear, but it's also status. If your family is pretty poor, well at least you aren't the bottom of the ladder, because the blacks/mexicans/whatever are beneath you. This is a large part of the reason you see more overt bigotry among poorer people than you do among the middle and upper classes.

That same drive for status is why the middle class snubs their noses at the poor for their bigotry, ironically enough.

angel of ecstasy wrote:Oh, KingCrackers cousin. You so racist.

In his defense we're all racist, except maybe a saint. Its just by degree. If you think you aren't at least in some manner you're delusional.

Frazzled wrote:

angel of ecstasy wrote:Oh, KingCrackers cousin. You so racist.

In his defense we're all racist, except maybe a saint. Its just by degree. If you think you aren't at least in some manner you're delusional.

I think we might be able to make an argument for prejudice vs. racism to an extend. I do think that we all have our own prejudice that we inherit from the culture around us. Racism seems more extreme than that, but maybe it is just me trying to justify things in my mind.