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You guys realise with out those "dirty Mexicans" your country would seize to fething function...

Poppabear wrote:You guys realise with out those "dirty Mexicans" your country would seize to fething function...

Kind of an interesting aside here is that because of the money from drug users, the cartels are turning Mexico into a warzone/living hell in which most sane people don't want to stay.
About half my friends are Mexican and they feel great worry for family members in Mexico, not knowing from one day to the next if they will recieve news of their death or kidnapping.
In the conversations we have about this, they blame drug users for the current enpowerment of the cartels and the murders in Mexico and ask if it were our families at risk, would we be content to leave them in that situation for years or even weeks, waiting on a visa while the killing goes on around them.


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sebster wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:I Cant beleive im saying this, But Frazz is Right, Racism in the big city is really prevalent, I live in the big city and the schools are veru divided among income and race.

I can't believe I have to explain this to a second person. No-one said there was no racism in cities, just that there was more in the country. I mean, I don't even know if I agree with the statement, I'd probably argue there's plenty of racism in both, it's just different kinds of racism.

But come on, people, it's really basic reading comprehension here.

I think I'd like to see the statistics rather than take someone's opinion. I've lived both in the country and in big cities and it really is hard to tell where there is more racism.


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Frazzled wrote:I don't think he assumed that. I sure don't.

*wannabe gangbanger - not safe. racist?
*teenybopper white boy - safe (because I can break him into little bitty pieces). racist?
*the chinka chinka music being played down the block. Without thinking I know they're far more likely to be from Mexico or Central America (or from here), and not Nigeria. Racist?

Wow if someone can find a point I'm trying to make just tell me, I appear to be babbling. Not enough coffee and I'm already ticked at associates.

It's something I never noticed until a Mexican told me, but a lot of Mexican music has its roots in German music. After I was told, I started noticing the oom pa sound in a lot of it.

Relapse wrote:
In the conversations we have about this, they blame drug users for the current enpowerment of the cartels and the murders in Mexico and ask if it were our families at risk, would we be content to leave them in that situation for years or even weeks, waiting on a visa while the killing goes on around them.

Probably not. But then they aren't our families.

dogma wrote:

Relapse wrote:
In the conversations we have about this, they blame drug users for the current enpowerment of the cartels and the murders in Mexico and ask if it were our families at risk, would we be content to leave them in that situation for years or even weeks, waiting on a visa while the killing goes on around them.

Probably not. But then they aren't our families.

After I heard their stories and saw the worry in their eyes, knowing a lot of it was caused by drug users here in the U.S. supplying cartels with the funds to cause the situation, I had no problem with letting their familes come in where it was safer. On the other hand, cartels take advantage of this to get drugs into this country.

A truly sad and dangerous situation all around.

Poppabear wrote:You guys realise with out those "dirty Mexicans" your country would seize to fething function...

Talk about a SERIOUS stretch of the truth. Our country would function without them just fine.

KingCracker wrote: If your going to be a racist, yanno what, thats on you, at least be a well informed racist would ya?

I am a racist, and am well informed with respect to my racism. I wasn't a racist until I was exposed to a certain culture, and I couldn't understand thy the bastids had a superiority complex until I did some learning. After learning I came to hate them really truly very much.................. moving along.... lovely weather out there, will be nice, warm and sunny for tomorrows stampede parade.

KingCracker wrote:

Poppabear wrote:You guys realise with out those "dirty Mexicans" your country would seize to fething function...

Talk about a SERIOUS stretch of the truth. Our country would function without them just fine.

I agree with KingCracker. The US has its massive prison-industrial complex to always fall back, which has effectively replaced the slave labour economy that the country was founded upon with a post-industrialized version of indentured labour.

Though I doubt that's what he actually intended.

KingCracker wrote:

Poppabear wrote:You guys realise with out those "dirty Mexicans" your country would seize to fething function...

Talk about a SERIOUS stretch of the truth. Our country would function without them just fine.

well, they're not citizens, so in that respect, yes it's true.... then on the other hand, there's the massive debt to considder. ARE the states doing just fine? I'm not so sure...... Don't worry, i share that same lack of confidence with canada.

The main problem that I have in Australian is the Vietnamese, Chinese and Lebonese drug cartels. I know they make a small percentage of the actual Immigrants to Australia, they pose a huge threat to the safety of it's citizens. Also, I hate people of any Nationality who come to Australia and refuse to learn how to speak English, the primary language here. Also, foreign nationalities especially Asians in my community segment themselves away from the community. In Australia, we have segmented cultures, which never interact really with each other except commercially, that's not real Multi-culturism.

rockerbikie wrote:The main problem that I have in Australian is the Vietnamese, Chinese and Lebonese drug cartels. I know they make a small percentage of the actual Immigrants to Australia, they pose a huge threat to the safety of it's citizens. Also, I hate people of any Nationality who come to Australia and refuse to learn how to speak English, the primary language here. Also, foreign nationalities especially Asians in my community segment themselves away from the community. In Australia, we have segmented cultures, which never interact really with each other except commercially, that's not real Multi-culturism.

don't i know it. I learned english when I came to canada, so did my parents, and they broke their backs in the span of about 10 years and managed to do wonders. It's not easy for a 40 year old person to start from scratch, never mind two with 3 children. We all managed to learn english, and some of the cheap outsourced labor my old man deals with on a regular basis...... when talking to their counterparts, they had to have an indian translating from unaccented english to indian accented english in order for the meeting to progress.... so, there's something to be said for the english speakers too.....

poda_t wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

Poppabear wrote:You guys realise with out those "dirty Mexicans" your country would seize to fething function...

Talk about a SERIOUS stretch of the truth. Our country would function without them just fine.

well, they're not citizens, so in that respect, yes it's true.... then on the other hand, there's the massive debt to considder. ARE the states doing just fine? I'm not so sure...... Don't worry, i share that same lack of confidence with canada.

Alright, lets call it down the middle, and say America would function as well as other modern countries without them

Relapse wrote:I think I'd like to see the statistics rather than take someone's opinion. I've lived both in the country and in big cities and it really is hard to tell where there is more racism.

I think it's a fairly hard thing to get stats on. I mean, you can look at those surveys on approval for multicultural marriage and the like, but I don't know if those report on city/rural divides (and I won't link to them, last time someone else posted them here all I said was 'the survey says there's an issue with race in whatever state it was, and that was enough to get me a couple of day suspension).

Really, its down to personal experience. Like you, my personal experience is that it is hard to tell which place has more racism. More than anything, it's just that the racism in the country tends to be different to the racism in the city, the actual extent seems to be about equal.


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rockerbikie wrote:Also, foreign nationalities especially Asians in my community segment themselves away from the community. In Australia, we have segmented cultures, which never interact really with each other except commercially, that's not real Multi-culturism.

Um, that is multi-culturalism. Multiple cultures.

There's this idea that multi-culturalism means you can come to our country, as long as you assimilate completely (except for opening foreign food restaurants because we like those) and anything other than that and you're causing trouble. That idea is bs.

There are two workable concepts for multi-culturalism - the melting pot and patchwork. The melting pot wants other cultures to come in and become part of the community, they take on parts of local culture, and give part of their culture to the local population. The other concept is the patchwork, that localised ethnic communities form and these communities as a whole interact with greater society, so cities get a Chinatown and a Little Italy.

These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive, but between them you get an outline for how a society can successfully absorb an immigrant population. What underpins each is that cultural absorption isn't a one way street, it isn't just about the immigrant population becoming like us (under the assumption that our culture is best). Instead, it's a two way street, they put as much culture into our population as they take away.

azazel the cat wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

Poppabear wrote:You guys realise with out those "dirty Mexicans" your country would seize to fething function...

Talk about a SERIOUS stretch of the truth. Our country would function without them just fine.

I agree with KingCracker. The US has its massive prison-industrial complex to always fall back, which has effectively replaced the slave labour economy that the country was founded upon with a post-industrialized version of indentured labour.

Though I doubt that's what he actually intended.

I dont want convicted prisoners ANYWHERE near my food.

rockerbikie wrote:The main problem that I have in Australian is the Vietnamese, Chinese and Lebonese drug cartels. I know they make a small percentage of the actual Immigrants to Australia, they pose a huge threat to the safety of it's citizens. Also, I hate people of any Nationality who come to Australia and refuse to learn how to speak English, the primary language here. Also, foreign nationalities especially Asians in my community segment themselves away from the community. In Australia, we have segmented cultures, which never interact really with each other except commercially, that's not real Multi-culturism.

No, it's not. Australian is the primary language. Don't you dare call that English.


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hotsauceman1 wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

Poppabear wrote:You guys realise with out those "dirty Mexicans" your country would seize to fething function...

Talk about a SERIOUS stretch of the truth. Our country would function without them just fine.

I agree with KingCracker. The US has its massive prison-industrial complex to always fall back, which has effectively replaced the slave labour economy that the country was founded upon with a post-industrialized version of indentured labour.

Though I doubt that's what he actually intended.

I dont want convicted prisoners ANYWHERE near my food.

But I bet you're okay with them handling your cell phone and credit card customer service inquiries, aren't you?

You'd better be. They already do.

sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:I think I'd like to see the statistics rather than take someone's opinion. I've lived both in the country and in big cities and it really is hard to tell where there is more racism.

I think it's a fairly hard thing to get stats on. I mean, you can look at those surveys on approval for multicultural marriage and the like, but I don't know if those report on city/rural divides (and I won't link to them, last time someone else posted them here all I said was 'the survey says there's an issue with race in whatever state it was, and that was enough to get me a couple of day suspension).

Really, its down to personal experience. Like you, my personal experience is that it is hard to tell which place has more racism. More than anything, it's just that the racism in the country tends to be different to the racism in the city, the actual extent seems to be about equal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rockerbikie wrote:Also, foreign nationalities especially Asians in my community segment themselves away from the community. In Australia, we have segmented cultures, which never interact really with each other except commercially, that's not real Multi-culturism.

Um, that is multi-culturalism. Multiple cultures.

There's this idea that multi-culturalism means you can come to our country, as long as you assimilate completely (except for opening foreign food restaurants because we like those) and anything other than that and you're causing trouble. That idea is bs.

There are two workable concepts for multi-culturalism - the melting pot and patchwork. The melting pot wants other cultures to come in and become part of the community, they take on parts of local culture, and give part of their culture to the local population. The other concept is the patchwork, that localised ethnic communities form and these communities as a whole interact with greater society, so cities get a Chinatown and a Little Italy.

These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive, but between them you get an outline for how a society can successfully absorb an immigrant population. What underpins each is that cultural absorption isn't a one way street, it isn't just about the immigrant population becoming like us (under the assumption that our culture is best). Instead, it's a two way street, they put as much culture into our population as they take away.

the patchwork is horsegak. I have foreign nationals refusing to learn english and pushing their own language. (the only ones I will grant have any right to push their language are the chinese because their blood tied this country together) I'm sorry, but if you want to bring home with you, then go feth yourself and get on the boat back to where you came from. (yes, boat, you don't deserve the luxury of flying back). We came to canada because it's better here than where we came from. We picked up the language, and our main interests lie with canada. Sure, we kept our languages, stick to our communities, but we also have our local communities we stick to as well.

This is something I've said a hundred times over, and I get pretty pissing angry when I see some asshat going on about ____ pride first and foremost, and the nation they're living in, enjoying the tax benefits of, and will probably build the rest of their lives in comes second. I have hungarian heritage, but I identify myself as Canadian. People pick up on my accent, ask me where I'm from, and I tell them I'm from calgary (where I now live). Naturally, they'll start pressing about, "no, i meant where are you from", to which I get pissy, because it's been 16 years since I last lived in europe. Everyone's a bloody patriot, but not a one of them is a citizen. If _______ is so great, hop on the boat and find your way back there.

poda_t wrote:

sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:I think I'd like to see the statistics rather than take someone's opinion. I've lived both in the country and in big cities and it really is hard to tell where there is more racism.

I think it's a fairly hard thing to get stats on. I mean, you can look at those surveys on approval for multicultural marriage and the like, but I don't know if those report on city/rural divides (and I won't link to them, last time someone else posted them here all I said was 'the survey says there's an issue with race in whatever state it was, and that was enough to get me a couple of day suspension).

Really, its down to personal experience. Like you, my personal experience is that it is hard to tell which place has more racism. More than anything, it's just that the racism in the country tends to be different to the racism in the city, the actual extent seems to be about equal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rockerbikie wrote:Also, foreign nationalities especially Asians in my community segment themselves away from the community. In Australia, we have segmented cultures, which never interact really with each other except commercially, that's not real Multi-culturism.

Um, that is multi-culturalism. Multiple cultures.

There's this idea that multi-culturalism means you can come to our country, as long as you assimilate completely (except for opening foreign food restaurants because we like those) and anything other than that and you're causing trouble. That idea is bs.

There are two workable concepts for multi-culturalism - the melting pot and patchwork. The melting pot wants other cultures to come in and become part of the community, they take on parts of local culture, and give part of their culture to the local population. The other concept is the patchwork, that localised ethnic communities form and these communities as a whole interact with greater society, so cities get a Chinatown and a Little Italy.

These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive, but between them you get an outline for how a society can successfully absorb an immigrant population. What underpins each is that cultural absorption isn't a one way street, it isn't just about the immigrant population becoming like us (under the assumption that our culture is best). Instead, it's a two way street, they put as much culture into our population as they take away.

the patchwork is horsegak. I have foreign nationals refusing to learn english and pushing their own language. (the only ones I will grant have any right to push their language are the chinese because their blood tied this country together) I'm sorry, but if you want to bring home with you, then go feth yourself and get on the boat back to where you came from. (yes, boat, you don't deserve the luxury of flying back). We came to canada because it's better here than where we came from. We picked up the language, and our main interests lie with canada. Sure, we kept our languages, stick to our communities, but we also have our local communities we stick to as well.

This is something I've said a hundred times over, and I get pretty pissing angry when I see some asshat going on about ____ pride first and foremost, and the nation they're living in, enjoying the tax benefits of, and will probably build the rest of their lives in comes second. I have hungarian heritage, but I identify myself as Canadian. People pick up on my accent, ask me where I'm from, and I tell them I'm from calgary (where I now live). Naturally, they'll start pressing about, "no, i meant where are you from", to which I get pissy, because it's been 16 years since I last lived in europe. Everyone's a bloody patriot, but not a one of them is a citizen. If _______ is so great, hop on the boat and find your way back there.

You are using nationality/citizenship and culture to mean the same thing, when in fact they are not. Not that culture is easy to define at times, it can be a learned behavior or have ideological ties or the more easily transferred physical form like blue jeans or maybe the culture speaks louder than others. Nationality is just where you legally live, you can come from a Chinese culture and background and be a citizen of Canada.

poda_t wrote:the patchwork is horsegak.

The problem with your answer is that to substantiate the claim above you give examples of immigrants failing to engage, and then conclude that means the idea of a patchwork is a failure. It's simply a nonsense conclusion.

The more sensible conclusion to draw is that some immigrants will fail to be part of that patchwork, fail to be part of an ethnic community that interacts with the greater society in a mutually beneficial way. The answer to this is to improve the way these communities relate by drawing in community leaders and stuff like that, not to just say 'patchwork sucks' and think that's some kind of answer to anything.

(the only ones I will grant have any right to push their language are the chinese because their blood tied this country together)

This kind of thinking, basically amounting to racial heritage is, to be perfectly frank, some serious bs. Some Chinese guy who got off the boat ten years ago has nothing to do with what some other Chinese guy did 100 years ago. They're different people.

We came to canada because it's better here than where we came from. We picked up the language, and our main interests lie with canada. Sure, we kept our languages, stick to our communities, but we also have our local communities we stick to as well.

What you're missing is that every immigrant group does this, it's just that it generally takes one or two generations. We hated the Italians when they came, because the men spoke broken English while the women often stayed in the home and didn't even learn that much... and then we forgot all about that when the second generation spoken fluent English, and then the third generation was unlikely to know much Italian at all. And we hated the Chinese when the exact same thing happened, and we promptly forgot about that when the generation pattern was exactly the same.

And now we're repeating it. And likely will again with whatever groups migrate twenty years from now.

KingCracker wrote:
Talk about a SERIOUS stretch of the truth. Our country would function without them just fine.

Depends on what you mean by "function". I like cheap produce.

sebster wrote:alot of stuff

well.... I was about to make a number of responses to this, but I wasn't sure whether continuing this line of discussion violated dakka's policy or not, so, instead I chose to abstain. I'm also disinclined to get into what might devolve into a flamebating war over the PM's so unless prompted I won't make a response.

hotsauceman1 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Amaya wrote:Racism is alive and well. It will never die out completely. In America it is smoldering, but embers still flare up from time to time. As long as a significant percentage of humanity remains stupid and ignorant pointless hatred will exist.

Edit: A big part of the problem is that a lot of rural areas in America and even smaller metropolitan areas are not well integrated yet. It might actually be worse in the big cities, there are areas where you flat out don't go if you're white and not from that part of town.

You think racism doesn't exist in the big city?

I Cant beleive im saying this, But Frazz is Right, Racism in the big city is really prevalent, I live in the big city and the schools are veru divided among income and race.

Exactly. In Calif most of the gangs are based on ethnicity. Jalhouse gangs are based on ethnicity. This "only the hicks are racist" is utter bullocks as the Brits would say.


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Poppabear wrote:You guys realise with out those "dirty Mexicans" your country would seize to fething function...

Thats cease to function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:

dogma wrote:

Relapse wrote:
In the conversations we have about this, they blame drug users for the current enpowerment of the cartels and the murders in Mexico and ask if it were our families at risk, would we be content to leave them in that situation for years or even weeks, waiting on a visa while the killing goes on around them.

Probably not. But then they aren't our families.

After I heard their stories and saw the worry in their eyes, knowing a lot of it was caused by drug users here in the U.S. supplying cartels with the funds to cause the situation, I had no problem with letting their familes come in where it was safer. On the other hand, cartels take advantage of this to get drugs into this country.

A truly sad and dangerous situation all around.

1. Declare drugs a state issue.
2. Have the federal government actually regain control of the border. DOn't give me this nonsense about "can't." The parties just don't want to. A nuke goes off in NY and we'll suddenly find a way to control the border in about 18 seconds.
3. Immigrants here - put 'em through a background check and start the formal immigration process. They're just the sort of hard working peoples we want.

poda_t wrote:

sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:I think I'd like to see the statistics rather than take someone's opinion. I've lived both in the country and in big cities and it really is hard to tell where there is more racism.

I think it's a fairly hard thing to get stats on. I mean, you can look at those surveys on approval for multicultural marriage and the like, but I don't know if those report on city/rural divides (and I won't link to them, last time someone else posted them here all I said was 'the survey says there's an issue with race in whatever state it was, and that was enough to get me a couple of day suspension).

Really, its down to personal experience. Like you, my personal experience is that it is hard to tell which place has more racism. More than anything, it's just that the racism in the country tends to be different to the racism in the city, the actual extent seems to be about equal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rockerbikie wrote:Also, foreign nationalities especially Asians in my community segment themselves away from the community. In Australia, we have segmented cultures, which never interact really with each other except commercially, that's not real Multi-culturism.

Um, that is multi-culturalism. Multiple cultures.

There's this idea that multi-culturalism means you can come to our country, as long as you assimilate completely (except for opening foreign food restaurants because we like those) and anything other than that and you're causing trouble. That idea is bs.

There are two workable concepts for multi-culturalism - the melting pot and patchwork. The melting pot wants other cultures to come in and become part of the community, they take on parts of local culture, and give part of their culture to the local population. The other concept is the patchwork, that localised ethnic communities form and these communities as a whole interact with greater society, so cities get a Chinatown and a Little Italy.

These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive, but between them you get an outline for how a society can successfully absorb an immigrant population. What underpins each is that cultural absorption isn't a one way street, it isn't just about the immigrant population becoming like us (under the assumption that our culture is best). Instead, it's a two way street, they put as much culture into our population as they take away.

the patchwork is horsegak. I have foreign nationals refusing to learn english and pushing their own language. (the only ones I will grant have any right to push their language are the chinese because their blood tied this country together) I'm sorry, but if you want to bring home with you, then go feth yourself and get on the boat back to where you came from. (yes, boat, you don't deserve the luxury of flying back). We came to canada because it's better here than where we came from. We picked up the language, and our main interests lie with canada. Sure, we kept our languages, stick to our communities, but we also have our local communities we stick to as well.

This is something I've said a hundred times over, and I get pretty pissing angry when I see some asshat going on about ____ pride first and foremost, and the nation they're living in, enjoying the tax benefits of, and will probably build the rest of their lives in comes second. I have hungarian heritage, but I identify myself as Canadian. People pick up on my accent, ask me where I'm from, and I tell them I'm from calgary (where I now live). Naturally, they'll start pressing about, "no, i meant where are you from", to which I get pissy, because it's been 16 years since I last lived in europe. Everyone's a bloody patriot, but not a one of them is a citizen. If _______ is so great, hop on the boat and find your way back there.

I agree with you on this one.

Frazzled wrote:
2. Have the federal government actually regain control of the border. DOn't give me this nonsense about "can't." The parties just don't want to. A nuke goes off in NY and we'll suddenly find a way to control the border in about 18 seconds.

Sure, if by "control" you mean "Do things that cost money, and make people feel safe, but aren't actually effective."

Israel can't do it, and their border is much smaller.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
2. Have the federal government actually regain control of the border. DOn't give me this nonsense about "can't." The parties just don't want to. A nuke goes off in NY and we'll suddenly find a way to control the border in about 18 seconds.

Sure, if by "control" you mean "Do things that cost money, and make people feel safe, but aren't actually effective."

Israel can't do it, and their border is much smaller.

You're talking absolute 100% no one gets through. i'm talking regaining control of the border like most other nations. It does have to be an either 'absolute hermetically sealed control' or 'absolutely open we don't give a gak' non existent border.

Frazzled wrote:
You're talking absolute 100% no one gets through. i'm talking regaining control of the border like most other nations. It does have to be an either 'absolute hermetically sealed control' or 'absolutely open we don't give a gak' non existent border.

It isn't absolutely open, there are ~21,000 Border Patrol Agents guarding the borders with Canada and Mexico. Most are on the Mexican border.

And most other nations don't have control of their borders. In Europe there essentially aren't any borders, and the remainder doesn't have the money to do it.

Europe is not an example to me.

Frazzled wrote:Europe is not an example to me.

So what country is?

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Europe is not an example to me.

So what country is?

Oh Canada

@fraz

I'm not saying the border can't be made more secure, but I can't blame anyone with legitimate concerns about their family trying to smuggle them into this country.
It's a bit of an ironic twist when I hear people that I know use drugs complain about the influx of Mexicans when the drug users are accomplaces to the cartels in turning Mexico into a warzone that people are fleeing.

Relapse wrote:@fraz

I'm not saying the border can't be made more secure, but I can't blame anyone with legitimate concerns about their family trying to smuggle them into this country.

I agree on both points.

It's a bit of an ironic twist when I hear people that I know use drugs complain about the influx of Mexicans when the drug users are accomplaces to the cartels in turning Mexico into a warzone that people are fleeing.

Really, you get those people complaining? Thats indeed ironic.

I think it would be great fun to sentence convicted drug users to a Mexican field trip of a few months so they can experience what they are helping to create down there.
This is a pet peeve of mine, and the conversation about drugs cartels is probably best left to it's own thread so this one doesn't get derailed.