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I cant speak for any other sniper but the Eldar rangers/pathfinders. The fact that these are troops and only cost me 95/120 points for 5 are great. Guardians used to be my objective camper with a scatter laser giving me, after BS3, 2 S6 shots at 36". I now take rangers for a very similar price who have less bodies yes, but have great cover saves. They hit with 3.33 shots and 1 usually is a precision AP1 shot. The rangers can also go to group if needed and have a stupid good cover save and snapfire there guns only hitting on 6s. But thats the only roll that really is important anyway. So that is fine with me. My guardians never did anything great. And they dont even have the real ability to lucky and do something awesome either. Maybe the occasional rhino pop with the laser. And usually my rangers will only do a little better comparatively. But they have a much better "critical hit" if you will. They at least have a chance to pull off a stellar shot that can change major things in a game. I like to play with Wraithlords. So if I snipe out the missile launchers from a few squads then my wraithlords are now much more survivable. Same goes with plasma and melta. It gives me the chance to pick who I want to remove, effectively reducing the amount of shots that would be fired at certain prime targets in my army. If that makes any sense. So yea my ranger squad may only take out 3 marines. But thats 3 less Krak missiles coming towards my Lord's face.


I think I capture what Ailaros is trying to say.

Just a heads up, you can't make use of the precise shot while snap firing, such as after having moved models armed with a heavy weapon like a sniper rifle.

Ailaros wrote:Just a heads up, you can't make use of the precise shot while snap firing, such as after having moved models armed with a heavy weapon like a sniper rifle.

Indeed.

Really the only thing that kind of mitigates sniper spam is the fact that all characters can do precise shots. Which, for necrons, is particularly deadly since the entire court are characters and obviously all the HQ choices, plus you add in a squad of snipers as well...that's a lot of potential precision shots. Lance-teks hitting precision shots are probably FAR better than counting on a snipers 6 to rend AFTER the 6 to hit.

Also, I totally get what you're saying Ailaros. Using squads as buffers, or ablative wounds as people would say previously, is less effective in this edition and that is the point you're trying to get across. It's not that snipers will take out 200 or 300 points (at least not reliably), it's that they take out that one guy that the rest of the squad was most likely there to protect thus negating the point of taking that giant, most likely expensive squad.

Ailaros wrote:Just a heads up, you can't make use of the precise shot while snap firing, such as after having moved models armed with a heavy weapon like a sniper rifle.

That is ok. They still get AP1 so they still can punch any armour. The point I was making was that going to ground doesnt make them completely useless besides getting better cover.

I like snipers for the extra range.
An extra 12" is nice to have, when you've got a common deployment with a very deep battlefield.

10 sniper scouts get 5 hits and 2.5 wounds a turn.
10 bolter scounts get 5 hits, and 2.5 wounds per turn against T4 opponents, 3.33 against T3 opponents.

So going sniper is a wash against T4, worse against T3 and better against anything T5+, at 12-24".
Bolters are better within 12" (rapid fire) and worse against 24-36".

On the whole, paying zero points to go from bolter to sniper rifle seems like the correct cost.
It's better in some areas, worse in others.

As for sniping characters; you're looking at a 2% chance to snipe a power armored character with each shot. That jumps to 6.5% to snipe a 5+ save non-character, per shot.

So with full squads, it's ~20% for MEQ characters and 65% for GEQ non-characters.

I know my snipers are trained to go for special weapons, leaving the characters to take it from the indirect fire.

-Matt

Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:That's an incredibly inaccurate comparison. One precise shot does not kill the whole unit, it kills only one Commissar. The blob has lost Stubborn and a power axe only.

Please avoid hyperbolic analogies in the future.

You missed the point. The analogy was for how disruptive sniper fire can be to the strategy of some armies, not how many models a single sniper rifle can kill.

And that's exactly what I think other people are missing here too. Sniper rifles don't kill many points worth of models, but their strategic impact can be much bigger than simply the points they make back.

While you are missing the relatively low chance that snipers will kill their high value target. They can have a significant impact, its just not all that likely. Not all snipers are equal of course but I wouldn't be expecting miracles from Guard or Scout snipers.

Kevin949 wrote: Using squads as buffers, or ablative wounds as people would say previously, is less effective in this edition and that is the point you're trying to get across. It's not that snipers will take out 200 or 300 points (at least not reliably), it's that they take out that one guy that the rest of the squad was most likely there to protect thus negating the point of taking that giant, most likely expensive squad.

Exactly. It's not that snipers have become lords of war, it's that snipers (along with new barrage and other things), has basically invalidated an entire class of strategy. If you weren't using that strategy, you won't notice much of a difference. If you were, then it makes a huge difference.

HawaiiMatt wrote:As for sniping characters; you're looking at a 2% chance to snipe a power armored character with each shot.

?

Assuming you're trying to snipe a meltagun from a marine squad, you're getting 1 precise shot per 6 sniper shots. 10 scouts yields 1.666 precise shots. 0.27 wound with rending, and another .7 that wound without rending, which filters down to .23 after armor saves. That's a .5, or, put another way, every other time a unit of scouts shoots at a tac squad, they pick off a heavy or special weapon gunner. That's rather serious.

Meanwhile, against a sergeant, it's one in 4 turns, but what happens when that 1 in 4 happens the first turn? What if the model you lost had an icon or a homing beacon? What if it killed off that squad's only serious anti-tank capability, or shut down its only weapon that could shoot further than 24"?

Depending on the situation, that could actually be a big deal.

I'd also note that the other chief beneift of sniper rifles - pinning - has the same effect. It's not that likely to happen, but when it does, it can be terribly disruptive, depending on the circumstances.

10 rangers (prescienced) generate just over 3 AP1 allocatable shots, 1.5 allocatable wounds, .75 after Look Out Sir. This means that, at solid odds, they can force a blob squad to both lose stubborn and take a LD 8 pinning test that they have about a 27% chance to fail.

75% chance to neuter a squad, with a further 27% chance to completely negate them for the next turn, with the same chance to do that on each successive turn to another blob.

Not game breaking, but certainly a major impact on the opponent's survivability.

Tuagh wrote:10 rangers (prescienced) generate just over 3 AP1 allocatable shots, 1.5 allocatable wounds, .75 after Look Out Sir. This means that, at solid odds, they can force a blob squad to both lose stubborn and take a LD 8 pinning test that they have about a 27% chance to fail.

75% chance to neuter a squad, with a further 27% chance to completely negate them for the next turn, with the same chance to do that on each successive turn to another blob.

Not game breaking, but certainly a major impact on the opponent's survivability.

This is a good explanation of what a few of us were trying to explain. Thank you. Granted this is only the eldar rangers. Space marine snipers might not be on par :-P

Tuagh wrote:10 rangers (prescienced) generate just over 3 AP1 allocatable shots, 1.5 allocatable wounds, .75 after Look Out Sir. This means that, at solid odds, they can force a blob squad to both lose stubborn and take a LD 8 pinning test that they have about a 27% chance to fail.

75% chance to neuter a squad, with a further 27% chance to completely negate them for the next turn, with the same chance to do that on each successive turn to another blob.

Not game breaking, but certainly a major impact on the opponent's survivability.

And your once in a blue moon this actually happens is still not worth the cost.

Once in a blue moon?

Did you miss the part about 75%? A blue moon happens only once every two or three years. This event is likely going to happen a couple of times a game... per ranger squad...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tuagh wrote:10 rangers (prescienced) generate just over 3 AP1 allocatable shots, 1.5 allocatable wounds, .75 after Look Out Sir. This means that, at solid odds, they can force a blob squad to both lose stubborn and take a LD 8 pinning test that they have about a 27% chance to fail.

75% chance to neuter a squad, with a further 27% chance to completely negate them for the next turn, with the same chance to do that on each successive turn to another blob.

Not game breaking, but certainly a major impact on the opponent's survivability.

And your once in a blue moon this actually happens is still not worth the cost.

Not worth the cost??? Are you serious? Maybe not worth the cost in another codex, but in Codex Eldar, they are very much worth the cost. The pathfinder upgrade is debatable, but plain rangers aren't overpriced. 95 for 5 that can sit on a rear objective and support. Thats better then a group of guardians. They are more survivable then a group of equal costing dire avengers. And can arguably do more damage (which really isnt the point of snipers anyway) over the course of the game. If you think of a marksman in any military, his job isnt to rack up the biggest kill count. It usually would be to take out high priority targets. This would then influence the rest of the war. So i feel that snipers in 40k do a similar thing.

Ailaros wrote:Once in a blue moon?

Did you miss the part about 75%? A blue moon happens only once every two or three years. This event is likely going to happen a couple of times a game... per ranger squad...

Sorry ailaros, normally I agree with what you post and enjoy reading your insights, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What I'm trying to say mostly isn't that snipers can't screw over Blob guard (they can and do) but that against many armies they wont be able to do much. Mass infantry guard isn't exactly the only list out there, and many other lists don't have a T3, +5 save commissar as the lynchpin to their strategy. Just because they wreck blob guard, does not mean they'll trash most other armies.

What i'm trying to say is that for the investment you put in to get that reliable one or two guys killed a turn a turn, could have been better used in other areas. People are mentioning a couple of decent dedicated sniper units, but i keep noticing the same thing, they cost a good chunk of points for what they do. A good commander will not be bringing just one or two meltaguns to kill a tank, he'll have several for redundancy. He wont just throw a single squad with a lone meltagun and go "god i hope this works" if he can help it. Adding to that, why pay for a very specialized and very inflexible weapon, when I can buy other weapons/units that are far more flexible and useful? Yes, that sniper can really screw a unit over, if it snipes that special weapon out or nails the sarge, but what else can you do with it? Besides hunt monstrous creatures and attempt to get a lucky shot on light armor, not much. I'd rather wipe the unit entirely with a leman russ battlecannon shot, or through a good FRFSRF volley, than hope I cripple it with a few snipers.

For example, what guard player would buy two sniper rifles over an autocannon? They have the same AP (except for rend) and same amount of shots. Sniper wounds everything on +4, AC is wounding everything up to T 5 on a +2. AC can kill light to medium armor reliably, snipers require a lucky shot. Etc. Etc.

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Once in a blue moon?

Did you miss the part about 75%? A blue moon happens only once every two or three years. This event is likely going to happen a couple of times a game... per ranger squad...

Sorry ailaros, normally I agree with what you post and enjoy reading your insights, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What I'm trying to say mostly isn't that snipers can't screw over Blob guard (they can and do) but that against many armies they wont be able to do much. Mass infantry guard isn't exactly the only list out there, and many other lists don't have a T3, +5 save commissar as the lynchpin to their strategy. Just because they wreck blob guard, does not mean they'll trash most other armies.

What i'm trying to say is that for the investment you put in to get that reliable one or two guys killed a turn a turn, could have been better used in other areas. People are mentioning a couple of decent dedicated sniper units, but i keep noticing the same thing, they cost a good chunk of points for what they do. A good commander will not be bringing just one or two meltaguns to kill a tank, he'll have several for redundancy. He wont just throw a single squad with a lone meltagun and go "god i hope this works" if he can help it. Adding to that, why pay for a very specialized and very inflexible weapon, when I can buy other weapons/units that are far more flexible and useful? Yes, that sniper can really screw a unit over, if it snipes that special weapon out or nails the sarge, but what else can you do with it? Besides hunt monstrous creatures and attempt to get a lucky shot on light armor, not much. I'd rather wipe the unit entirely with a leman russ battlecannon shot, or through a good FRFSRF volley, than hope I cripple it with a few snipers.

For example, what guard player would buy two sniper rifles over an autocannon? They have the same AP (except for rend) and same amount of shots. Sniper wounds everything on +4, AC is wounding everything up to T 5 on a +2. AC can kill light to medium armor reliably, snipers require a lucky shot. Etc. Etc.

I can definitely understand the point you are making here. I sure as heck would rater have an autocannon or a leman russ. So i'd think from a guard standpoint, the new rules for sniping dont really merit an inclusion for this unit. I have minimal experience with any army BUT Eldar. So speaking from an Eldar standpoint, I dont take rangers because of how incredibly amazing they are. I take them because My other troop choices aren't really any better and are in most cases worse. The only other troop choice that I can see being taken is GJB's. They work. Dire avengers need a transport so in the end they cost more and can only hold one objective (compared to spending the same amount of point on 2 units of rangers) and must be outside of their transport now to do so. They aren't really an objective sitter though. They are also now out-ranged pretty well by simple rapidfire weapons. So Rangers will see play more so out of a need for a decent troop choice. So I very much welcome the new benefits they have, even if they aren't a super awesome incredible boost. Just enough to warrant they slot in my lists.

Take Scout Snipers for example:

Assuming they take a heavy weapon, that's 9 shots, with a 50% chance to hit. so, 4.5 hits. Then you have a 50% chance to wound... 2.25 wounds.

So, with about 2~ wounds on a squad, the unit that gets shot at then gets saves. Unless one of those two wounds is a 6, in which case, they'd get a cover / invulnerable save.

Sure, you could potentially hit the jackpot with snipers. But overall, if I wanted two models dead a turn, I can find something else at the price tag of 150pts to do the job. A 2x Autocannon Dread, and i'd still have 25pts to play around with.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Sorry ailaros, normally I agree with what you post and enjoy reading your insights, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What I'm trying to say mostly isn't that snipers can't screw over Blob guard (they can and do) but that against many armies they wont be able to do much.

We're actually in agreement here:

Ailaros wrote:It's not that snipers have become lords of war, it's that snipers (along with new barrage and other things), has basically invalidated an entire class of strategy. If you weren't using that strategy, you won't notice much of a difference. If you were, then it makes a huge difference.

However, I would also note that snipers aren't only useful against armies that were relying on hidden upgrades. Certainly it's not going to be a game breaker like it would be against certain lists, but sniper rifles are still slightly useful outside of this role, such as in taking down monstrous creatures. I mean, they still have rending, and pinning, which still isn't completely worthless.

Plus, even if you weren't RELYING on hidden upgrades, it's still going to be pretty annoying when they're picked out of squads. It still might very well have a strategic impact. Even against armies that it's not specialized against, the quality of a sniper rifle has still risen from really awful to roughly that of a flamer - not great perhaps, but can still be rather annoying.

I can understand someone with blob squads being worried about the possibility of loosing the stubborn chap, but I cant see many people going out of their way to include snipers in their lists as the odds are not that great.

I havent seen the really obvious solution mentioned yet- Put the important individual out of LOS! Its one little infantry model that needs to be hidden from the enemy snipers, put it behind a tank, terrain or a chap with a big flag!

Ailaros, this isn't an argument worth having, some people insist on seeing everything in terms of points expended vs points eliminated, they're never going to grasp something as "subtle" as "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save", let alone that the tactical utility of a unit is not necessarily dependent on its ability to remove X number of enemy models per turn. If it's not a Deep Striking Melta-suicide squad or some form of ludicrous WA-Shenanigans Deathstar unit, some players just aren't interested.

Yodhrin wrote: "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save".

Well, people keep bringing up Rangers. They are not cheap, they are incredibly overpriced.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Yodhrin wrote: "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save".

Well, people keep bringing up Rangers. They are not cheap, they are incredibly overpriced.

Well so is basically everything in the Eldar book...we have a 4th edition book after all.

Eldar - still will take Rangers/Pathfinders in a foot list as our other troop options are limited in their roles. Also may see some other armies take them as Allies if they want a Farseer.

Guard - unless its a foot list or there are spare points somewhere, sniper rifles are not going to be seen.

SM - if the person is taking scouts they may as well have sniper rifles, bolters really aren't an advantage for them.

I am with Alairos on this one. in larger games i usually run 1-2 power blobs(in 3000+ games). but with snipers being able to snipe out my comissars with at least a 1/4 chance (or a 41% as alairos said earlier for some units) it just isnt worth the risk to have a non stubborn guard unit that size and i dont see myself running using them any more...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Yodhrin wrote: "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save".

Well, people keep bringing up Rangers. They are not cheap, they are incredibly overpriced.

Overpriced? Maybe. Incredibly overpriced? No. You have to compare them to their own codex, not any Other one. In codex eldar they are a
Solid choice for any army that jetbikes don't fit in. Plain and simple. Who the frick cares how many points they get back?!?! 5/6 of the game types are about scoring with objectives. Not by killing points. They aren't call of duty snipers here, killing everyone in the game with no scopes and crap. It seems people have a skewed idea of what a sniper does. He doesn't get a boatload of kills. He waits a week just for that one kill kill that can change the whole battle. Yea that's all a fluff standpoint. But we already beat the dead horse with the gameplay standpoint.

juraigamer wrote:Snipers were always good at killing MCs and elite infantry. They just now have a single extra rule that if you're lucky you can attempt to place wounds.

No they werent. They were at best meh vs MCs and bad vs elite infantry. The new rule hasnt change that in any extreme way. They are (with a few exceptions) still bad.

tedurur wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Snipers were always good at killing MCs and elite infantry. They just now have a single extra rule that if you're lucky you can attempt to place wounds.

No they werent. They were at best meh vs MCs and bad vs elite infantry. The new rule hasnt change that in any extreme way. They are (with a few exceptions) still bad.

They still have rending, and wound on 4's, though. Against a wraithlord, a team of 10 ratlings only needs a turn or two to drop it.

And I've seen pathfinders DESTROY tac terminators before. They easily throw down 2 rending hits a turn, which is only being stopped by a 5++ (in addition to other damage).

Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:Sorry ailaros, normally I agree with what you post and enjoy reading your insights, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What I'm trying to say mostly isn't that snipers can't screw over Blob guard (they can and do) but that against many armies they wont be able to do much.

We're actually in agreement here:

Ailaros wrote:It's not that snipers have become lords of war, it's that snipers (along with new barrage and other things), has basically invalidated an entire class of strategy. If you weren't using that strategy, you won't notice much of a difference. If you were, then it makes a huge difference.

However, I would also note that snipers aren't only useful against armies that were relying on hidden upgrades. Certainly it's not going to be a game breaker like it would be against certain lists, but sniper rifles are still slightly useful outside of this role, such as in taking down monstrous creatures. I mean, they still have rending, and pinning, which still isn't completely worthless.

Plus, even if you weren't RELYING on hidden upgrades, it's still going to be pretty annoying when they're picked out of squads. It still might very well have a strategic impact. Even against armies that it's not specialized against, the quality of a sniper rifle has still risen from really awful to roughly that of a flamer - not great perhaps, but can still be rather annoying.

Ah ok, didn't notice that bit at the end. Was late when I was typing that. In that case I think I'd agree. My bad!

Yes, snipers have gotten better. Tremendously? No, not at all. Viable? Maybe. I know as an IG and an Ork player, they'll not be showing up in my lists much, but I can see people like necrons and eldar being happy with them. It's just with the armies I play, why bother dropping a 150pts on a sniper squad to try and pick a guy out, when I can just buy a LRBT or a Dakkajet and kill the whole unit outright? And while I don't have much experience with other armies, I think most of them would agree.

They will be VERY annoying to run into once people start running them more and get used to using them, but I'll counter them the way I've been countering every trick people come up, field more bodies than the opponent has bullets. Yes, you got that plasma guy, good job, now what are you going to do about the other 20 plasma guns and all the autcannons in my list? And of course, we'll always be safe if we have the guys in a transport, or hide that one important guy behind a building. Like everything else, there will be ways to deal with them. I'm really not looking foward to the first time I run into a true sniper spam list though...

Also, slightly off topic, but is it me or ishaving HWS's being 2 wounds to a base now actually helpful? Now, we've got an extra wound insurance on that autocannon or lascannon from getting sniped! I never thought I'd see the day where I was GLAD they're a 2 wound 60mm base

tl;dr all of it, so:

Eldar Rangers get AP1 on a to-hit roll of 6, along with picking the target.
Eldar Pathfinders get AP1, but on rolls of 5 or 6.
All other rolls of 3+ get a chance to roll Rending on a 6, too.

So, the odds of a Pathfinder killing someone is pretty good. Both rangers and pathfinders get AP1 on anyone they want to take out, 1/6 of the time.
There's still the 4+ to wound, but 1/3 of those that get through rend.

Snipers got a lot better against certain armies. As a deamon army, I could lose a 42 point chaos icon (25+the model), and have half my army scatter and miss-hap as a result.
If I was a blob player I'd be outright screwed.
Against most opponents it's fairly balanced though. Taking out a sargent or a special weapon is irritating but not game braking to most marine armies, but it can and does destroy blobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Yodhrin wrote: "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save".

Well, people keep bringing up Rangers. They are not cheap, they are incredibly overpriced.

Rangers are amazing, especially pathfinders. Anyone who's ever played an infantry army knows this.

MrMoustaffa wrote: why bother dropping a 150pts on a sniper squad to try and pick a guy out, when I can just buy a LRBT

They do very different things.

I mean, if you took a 21-man blob with melta and ran it at the LRBT, there's a pretty decent chance that the blob would survive long enough to get at least one round of melta fire in. That same blob, against 3 units of 5 ratlings would see its commissar killed likely turn 1, and be completely defanged by turn 3. Likely the squad would fail at least one pinning check and never actually close range.

I agree that, in general principle, it's better to just take more firepower and kill things outright, but 6th ed snipers are a new exception to that rule.

Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote: why bother dropping a 150pts on a sniper squad to try and pick a guy out, when I can just buy a LRBT

They do very different things.

I mean, if you took a 21-man blob with melta and ran it at the LRBT, there's a pretty decent chance that the blob would survive long enough to get at least one round of melta fire in. That same blob, against 3 units of 5 ratlings would see its commissar killed likely turn 1, and be completely defanged by turn 3. Likely the squad would fail at least one pinning check and never actually close range.

I agree that, in general principle, it's better to just take more firepower and kill things outright, but 6th ed snipers are a new exception to that rule.

I really don't imagine we'll see all 3 Elite slots filled with Ratlings in a list. Can it happen? Sure. Will it? Doubful.

Only reason i take snipers is the heavy bolter that gives me a poison 2 blast weapon.