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Ailaros wrote:That same blob, against 3 units of 5 ratlings would see its commissar killed likely turn 1, and be completely defanged by turn 3

Assuming the all of the Ratlings get to shoot (which is a big assumption with their Ld 5), they've still only got roughly a 2/3 chance of killing one Commissar. Most of them will be dead or falling back before they get to shoot again.

Which brings us around to the start again. Snipers excel at picking one guy and killing him dead (the good ones at least) but I still see the amount of effort spent on killing such few models as a very big gamble for what you get out of it. Just because you sniped the commissar from a blob, doesn't make it worthless. Yes, it can't charge into close combat anymore, but it can still unload a redonculous amount of shots with FRFSRF into your infantry, or go to ground on an objective with incoming and get a crazy save. And this is counting against a list that is considered one of the easiest to hard counter with snipers.

Other armies will not be relying on such a fragile model as their main plan, and this is where issues will pop up. Even when you have a shot at sniping a sarge or something, the rest of the unit is still alive, and odds are, very angry that their sarge took an early dirt nap. While it may not be 100% as scary as it once was, a clever opponent will find uses for it. Not to mention the next fact. If an opponent realizes that snipers are one of his worst weaknesses, what do you think he's going to prioritize on killing first? Your snipers may very well only get one or 2 rounds of decent shooting out tops, before they're focused down. And most snipers are not exactly tough to begin with. You'll either have to take the fire on the chin and hope they live, or go to ground and give up shooting, where they may as well be dead unless they're objective sitters.

Which is why I make my whole "I'd rather buy a LRBT/ Dakkajet/ Battlewagon/ Basilisk" arguement. Yes, the snipers very well may be able to gimp certain lists, but these lists will anticipate this, and have ways to work around it if they're smart. Not to mention there will be lists where they just can't do much damage, or what damage they can do will be fairly pointless. For example, if you ran into a true leafblower guard list, what's the point in being able to sniper special weapons, when by the time you've got them out of the chimera, they may as well be dead already? Whereas, if you'd bought any of the other things I've mentioned, they'd still be plenty useful in almost any situation.

Which is probably a good thing. Snipers are meant to be a specialist, surgical tool. They're meant to put down a specific threat quickly and at range. They're relatively good at this now. They're still a terrible choice to bring in truly high numbers, since they gimp your power to kill other targets if you spend too many points on them, but at least they're not almost completely useless like they were last edition.

I also dont think it helps that many snipers are bs3
I know drones and scouts are. That only gives you a very small chance to hit them.

alarmingrick wrote:I really don't imagine we'll see all 3 Elite slots filled with Ratlings in a list. Can it happen? Sure. Will it? Doubful.

Nor am I saying that we're going to see players abandon their russes to have points for ratlings.

My whole point here is that snipers do something real now, and that real something doesn't have a whole lot else that can also do it, so there isn't much competition. Not every body needs snipers, and not every army will be crippled by them, just like not every army needs meltaguns, and not all armies are crippled by you bringing melta spam.

I know that the internet isn't good with nuiance, but there really is a middle ground between "the suxorz" and "spam me harder!"

DarknessEternal wrote: they've still only got roughly a 2/3 chance of killing one Commissar.

A 2/3ds chance of having something insanely bad happen to the blob (namely, it ceasing to be a blob). You're failing to grasp how disruptive this is. Even if it were a 1/3 chance, or even a 1/6th chance, it's still an uncomfortably large chance given just how awful it is when the odds DO give you the result.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Just because you sniped the commissar from a blob, doesn't make it worthless. Yes, the snipers very well may be able to gimp certain lists, but these lists will anticipate this, and have ways to work around it if they're smart.

No, that's really the problem here. The people who aren't getting sniper rifles in the new 6th ed places that they're useful are failing to grasp just how useful they've become in their new niche roles.

If I was running a slugga mob, and I had to stop them from charging in because I lost my ability to hurt vehicles, the strategic significance of this is enormous. If I was running a power blob list, and I had to take my close combat monster and shirk around shooting LASGUNS and hoping for a few failed armor saves, this is a very big change to how I was relying on playing them in order to pull my strategy off.

It also seems that said people are ignoring, or underestimating their lesser uses as well. If you had a terminator squad that was sitting in the back plinking with a CML, and the CML was picked out of the squad, that doesn't make the termies literally useless, but it still does seriously disrupt their ability to preform the role they were taken for. Movement is only SO fast in this game, so switching from a long-range vehicle killer to a mid-range infantry-killer isn't going to happen instantly. You're losing killing power by losing the upgrade, losing more killing power by the time taken in transition, and you still have lost the primary purpose of the squad. This really isn't nothing.

And now it seems that there is a claim that smart players can just easily avoid them? Unless you're keeping your models out of LOS of snipers, I fail to see how a player can play much smarter to avoid getting killed by snipers. Once again, there's the strategic impact. If I'm hiding out of LOS from snipers, what of my opponent's stuff is now out of LOS of the guys I'm hiding, and can now act unencumbered by my forces?

If all this really is too nuanced, then sure, don't bother taking sniper rifles. You probably won't miss them. Try to keep an open mind for people who see their new worthiness.

As for odds of sniping a marine:
1/6 are snipe hits, 2/6 wound normally, 1/3 fail armor.
1/6 are snipe hits, 1/6 rend, all fail armor.
4.6 percent. HALF are avoided by look out.
2.3 percent chance to wound a marine in the open on a snipe.
Or to be more accurate, 1 out of 21.6 shots.

My blob has worked great so far.
Want to kill the stubborn guy?
I upgraded from the 35 point commissar to the 80 point commissar lord with stealth.
The blob is a bit more expenisve, but I've got improved cover saves, and 3 wounds and 5+ invul on the guy who matters.
1/6 snipe, 1/2 wound, 4/6 fail invul, 1/2 get look out.
Even 36 shots is 1 snipe round. You need 3 wounds, or ~108 shots.
With stealth, if I'm in cover, your effectiveness does drop off.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

I upgraded from the 35 point commissar to the 80 point commissar lord with stealth.
The blob is a bit more expenisve, but I've got improved cover saves, and 3 wounds and 5+ invul on the guy who matters.
1/6 snipe, 1/2 wound, 4/6 fail invul, 1/2 get look out.

-Matt

The FAQ changed the LC's cloak back to just him getting the bonus. Also his LoS is 2+ for an IC.

As for the subject of Snipers - i'm much more afraid of a unit of Paladins shooting at the blob...

I would bring the occasional camo scout squad to hold the back objective and 6th has given a boost with precision. Is everyone gonna field one? No, but if you did you may have seen the 'Ooh piece of candy' when you do snipe that Inferno Pistol BA or PK nob from the squad. I know one player that'll keep bringing Tellion because of how much damage he does disrupting his opponents strategy. Deal with it or not, he'll keep shooting either way.

Ailaros wrote:If all this really is too nuanced, then sure, don't bother taking sniper rifles. You probably won't miss them. Try to keep an open mind for people who see their new worthiness.

From your point of view I can see why sniper might be very worthy of fear. However I cannot see why from most players point of view they would be worth including in a list.

I dont think the situations in which they could be really effective will be common enough for them to be included in most lists. I think you should carry on with you blobs as is and see how often you come up against snipers and are unable to hide your improtant people.

Also , I may be being silly here, isnt the Commissar only there to give Stubborn? Which is only needed in CC? So if you face a list with snipers, some anti GEQ CC and no places to hide a Commissar you might be in some trouble. Even then I dont think it would be a game changer.

I have recently being making extensive use of Deathmarks and after several games completley given up on precision shots. I land so that the model I want to die is one of the closest few and hope to kill my way to them as presicion shots cannot be relied upon.

So while snipers are scary to you they are not reliable enough to make most lists and you probably wont actually have to worry about them very often.

Results of eldar snipers are in!!!!! They sucked hard lol.

I think they didnt calibrate their scopes before the battle. They couldnt hit for squat. Taking 10 man units of them also seems to be a must. They need the extra staying power. I believe with a little better luck on my part they would have done the job.

I just like how they can "de-claw" some units early in the game (pop a special weapon or two would make me happy).

Texanity wrote:I just like how they can "de-claw" some units early in the game (pop a special weapon or two would make me happy).

Against an some armies, like say anything in power armor, losing a special weapon in no way stops them from pounding eldar into the ground like tent pegs.

DarknessEternal wrote:Against an some armies, like say anything in power armor, losing a special weapon in no way stops them from pounding eldar into the ground like tent pegs.

lol

Anyways, I'd also note that sniper rifles are the bane of those old, hated wound-wrapping abuser units. If you're concerned about those couple of TWC with the thunder hammers, you can pick those out and leave your tanks vs. lightning claws, or the reverse if you're fielding a lot of infantry.

They are a real counter to mix-n-match units.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Texanity wrote:I just like how they can "de-claw" some units early in the game (pop a special weapon or two would make me happy).

Against an some armies, like say anything in power armor, losing a special weapon in no way stops them from pounding eldar into the ground like tent pegs.

But, the argument can be made that if you snipe out that melta or plasma, your tank might live longer, or it might give that war walker one more round of shooting before getting pumelled. Of course, its going to take very careful maneuvering and positioning to pull it off.

Who knows, snipers might become one of the main ways to tell how skilled a player is this edition. A noobie just firing away from a random spot he picked wont accomplish much, but for that vet who sets up good fields of fire, opens up key transports, and sets up the "perfect shot" for his snipers, they could be brutal. At this point, all we can do is play more games and see for ourselves if all that hype is grounded in reality, or unbased panic.

Pathfinders and scouts are scoring units. They are not going to put out epic damage, but they do have a good range on their guns to they can contribute from a safe distance while holding an objective. Also if the objective is placed in good cover it's very difficult to remove them without flamers or charging into cc.

They will do a wound or 2 on a regular basis, which is enough to cause a pinning check. While it's never a good idea to count on a pin when it happens it's a big windfall. The same goes for when a heavy or special weapon is picked off.

Snipers are still great against mc and quad guns. T7 quad guns are becoming very popular, and snipers are an inexpensive way to wreck them with a scoring unit. Range isn't a good defense against snipers because they can almost always infiltrate within 30" of a quad gun.

schadenfreude wrote:Pathfinders and scouts are scoring units. They are not going to put out epic damage, but they do have a good range on their guns to they can contribute from a safe distance while holding an objective. Also if the objective is placed in good cover it's very difficult to remove them without flamers or charging into cc.

They will do a wound or 2 on a regular basis, which is enough to cause a pinning check. While it's never a good idea to count on a pin when it happens it's a big windfall. The same goes for when a heavy or special weapon is picked off.

Snipers are still great against mc and quad guns. T7 quad guns are becoming very popular, and snipers are an inexpensive way to wreck them with a scoring unit. Range isn't a good defense against snipers because they can almost always infiltrate within 30" of a quad gun.

This is something I hadn't even thought about. Being able to snipe that quadgun could be a huge boon in the upcoming world of aegishammer 40k

schadenfreude wrote:Snipers are still great against mc and quad guns. T7 quad guns are becoming very popular, and snipers are an inexpensive way to wreck them with a scoring unit. Range isn't a good defense against snipers because they can almost always infiltrate within 30" of a quad gun.

Oh snap... Good catch.

So... To summarize this and to go along with my gut instinct.

It seems that snipers are now a valid choice in the game and seems justifiable to most units points costs (with some question marks over maybe the necron ones being too awesome?)

As such, they are a valid, but not automatic, choice to fit in ones army.

Yay, GW did something right?

To address the OP's original theme, I don't think snipers are a big doom and gloom game changer by any means. Many posts before mine have confirmed that they can be situationally useful, and many have also accurately pointed out that even if they succeed to kill a valuable target, that might not be enough to completely throw off an opponents game plan. I'm not sure who was touting them as a be all end all unit, but that seems a bit sensationalistic.

Now, advanced sniping tactics aside, I think what makes snipers so awesome now is in reference mainly to Scouts and Pathfinders. For an army like mine, I take scouts as scoring troops who can hold an objective and maybe do some damage; they are cheap enough that I don't have to care if they sit back and do nothing, so long as they get me that objective point. Since I can give them snipers for free, that cheap scoring unit now has 36" of range, and add whichever heavy weapon you like and it's still cheaper than 5 Tac marines.

With the new sniping rules, I can take this dirt cheap babysitting squad and actually stand a chance to throw a real wrench in my opponents game plan. More often than not, they will probably just kill a few models worth of enemies and maybe earn back their points; but the real kicker is that for absolutely no additional cost, there is a chance now that I can get a bit lucky and take out something important.

This is a unit that just needs to hold an objective and not die, and I would call it a mission success, that is a pretty low bar. Now, as I mentioned before, for absolutely zero extra points, this unit can actually contribute an important kill to the war effort. You can't really defend against them because it would be a waste of shots to focus any real firepower on a scout unit, and you'd be benefiting your enemy by shooting at his cheapest and least vital unit, while the rest of his force runs around doing what they want. It's inadvisable to focus resources on killing them, and now with the new rules it is inadvisable to just let them go unchecked. It forces a lose-lose decision on your foe.

In my mind, that makes Scout snipers awesome.

Keeping in mind that many SM armies will have a unit of Scouts, and many Eldar are going to have Pathfinders, and that Ratlings just look plain awesome so I don't know why an IG army wouldn't take them for that reason alone; you are going to have a pretty decent number of opponents who are rolling with a cheap and unassuming unit that probably won't scare you too much, but just might snipe a BB gun shot to your coinpurse; and when that happens, believe me, it's going to sting....and you are going to cringe at the memory.

Well in defence of IG, ratlings are terrible compared to most other stuff we can bring. T2, LD 6 alone makes them very risky to bring at 10pts a model in any strength that they can do damage. Almost everything wounds them on 2's, and losing just one or 2 means they're pretty much running for the hills.

Plus, they compete with stormtroopers and marbo, which are both awesome units in their own right. Add in the fact that a 100pts can go a LONG way in a guard army, and you'll see why nobody takes them. Plus, unlike your scouts or the eldar pathfinders, ratlings don't score, so we still have to leave a troop unit behind to grab the objective anyways. Overall, it'd almost be a better idea to just buy some snipers for a PCS or a SWS squad instead. Still gets those 6's like the ratlings, and won't die just because someone looked at them funny

I haven't seen it mentioned but;

1) Scout Snipers will take a heavy weapon (ML or 2+ Poisened h.bolter) in 5man squads - beyond possible rends and pinning, they simply cause wounds to targets per turn. This is good!

2) Being able to field that rocket launcher, I feel, has become golden.

3) They also have bolt pistols, krak grenades and S/T4 w/ the possibility of S5.

4) Krak Grenades. Fantastic! Meltabomb, even better!

/Utility

MrMoustaffa wrote:Well in defence of IG, ratlings are terrible compared to most other stuff we can bring. T2, LD 6 alone makes them very risky to bring at 10pts a model in any strength that they can do damage. Almost everything wounds them on 2's, and losing just one or 2 means they're pretty much running for the hills.

Wow, I've never looked at an IG codex and did not realize how terrible ratlings are stats wise. In that case it would be a hard sell to justify taking them when it comes down to it. For me, as SM, I pretty much get something for nothing because I'd be taking scouts either way. If you could get those sniper rifles for free/cheap on a unit that would be hanging around your back lines anyway (maybe that's the PCS or SWS you mentioned) then maybe it would be a wildcard worth taking.

I agree with Ailaros, the snipers aren't going to win you the game, the idea of 40 snipers is frankly stupid.
However, a small amount 5-10 sitting on an objective at the the back (that would otherwise have to be occupied by another troop unit; who might not be able to do anything) can upset an opponent's plan, killing that multimelta just as it got into range of your expensive tank, sniping that power klaw,and if not they are still killing things. They may not make there points but objectives and units protected aren't measured in points.

UltraTacSgt wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:Well in defence of IG, ratlings are terrible compared to most other stuff we can bring. T2, LD 6 alone makes them very risky to bring at 10pts a model in any strength that they can do damage. Almost everything wounds them on 2's, and losing just one or 2 means they're pretty much running for the hills.

Wow, I've never looked at an IG codex and did not realize how terrible ratlings are stats wise. In that case it would be a hard sell to justify taking them when it comes down to it. For me, as SM, I pretty much get something for nothing because I'd be taking scouts either way. If you could get those sniper rifles for free/cheap on a unit that would be hanging around your back lines anyway (maybe that's the PCS or SWS you mentioned) then maybe it would be a wildcard worth taking.

120 points is a Vet squad with 3x snipers, a mortar and camo cloaks. That's not a bad vehicle for sniper rifles with decent range that can sit in cover on an objective and try and pin an enemy unit each turn. It's probably one of the most expensive ways to get 3 BS4 sniper rifles in the game though.

A SWS with sniper rifles is pretty cheap but you miss out on all the bonuses other races snipers get like camo cloaks and infiltration.

If I'm honest IG don't have snipers that can match up to a Scout squad or Pathfinders. 5 Ratlings are cheap for a reason, SWS or PCS are just regular guard with a longer lasgun and vets cost too much for too few rifles.

How about pinning? Do snipers still cause pinning. I always liked that. Never could pull it off but the potential was fun.

Yep, they still cause pinning checks.

I think we've pretty much nailed down the new "role" of snipers, at least for now. Scout squads and pathfinders are going to love it, as it gives them something to do now as opposed to just sitting on the objective all game. For other armies, like IG, that can't bring them on a worthwhile platform (pts wise. Even 50pts can buy you a helluva lot of things in our codex) they will view them as trash, something that may get lucky once in a blue moon, but not enough for them to care.

For the armies that do take them, they'll sit there and harass critical units until the law of averages finally takes them out. They'll hope for a golden BB a turn, but they know that if they even get one or 2 it'll be worth it.

And necrons will have deepstriking rapid firing sniper rifles killing everything, which makes total sense

I see this as a very nice touch on snipers, but at the same time they probably won't be a game changer.
Eldar pathfinders I think will be usefull, but I don't expect them to pick off the mega armour ork ether.
I wouldn't rely on them sarge poping for tactics ether.

One squad is a nice touch, but barrage weapons can basically snipe and have a better chance of landing where you want, 2/3 over 1/6. Before scatter.

Just loose out on the eldar snipers AP1 rule, but multiple blasts is always fun.


I expect in general they'll cause more panic than anything else. On the off chance they do pop a character, even if you wouldn't put cash on them being super usefull on that objective.


Necron snipers seem horrific. All round, just brutal. I think there way more than a 95 point rangers squad though

The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

Kingkaneda wrote:The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

So you'd be spending about 165 points on the psykers (10 man squad + chimera) and then another 50-70 on a sniper squad just to cause a pin? That's an expensive trick that might not even work thanks to Deny the Witch. Plus, the really expensive squads are usually fearless.

For that price you can easily get a few artillery pieces that will cause pinning tests much more reliably and actually kill stuff.

Kingkaneda wrote:The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

You could say the same about a heavy weapon team with mortars, or a basilisk.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Kingkaneda wrote:The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

You could say the same about a heavy weapon team with mortars, or a basilisk.

-Matt

Except mortars are more accurate at picking out models than snipers, are easier to protect, and useful against a wider array of targets.