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So as an ork and a guard player, I've been noticing a lot of worry over snipers and their ability to "pick out every useful unit we have", and I want to know where this fear is coming from? We're talking about a weapon that only gets to allocate on a 6 to hit, always wounds on a +4 (in most circumstances at least, ignoring guys like vindicaires), has to get through armor unless they get a 6, and then has to hope the opponent fails their look out sir!, or that its a special weapon or something that doesn't get the roll. With all those "ifs" I hardly see this as the bringer of gloom and doom that some people are worried about. Even a guard sergeant has a fairly reliable chance to survive it, and guys like nobs or marine sergeants would have to get very unlucky to get killed by a single shot.

Yes, an army like guard or space marines spamming snipers could be a problem, but if your opponent is obsessed with picking out models to the point where they're going to focus only on that and ignore their ability to deal with heavy armor, horde infantry, and fliers, then congratulations, I'll let them pick off a few special weapons and sarges a turn, while my leman russes go play.

Is there something I'm missing to this? Because honestly, I really don't see the big deal with these things. I'll probably field an IG sniper rifle spam army sometime for kicks and giggles, but even there, I really don't see it being an uber death machine at all.

So what are your thoughts guys. Sniper rifles almost as useless as before, or are they now the most rediculous weapon upgrade guard can buy for 5pts?

In my opinion the Precise Shot of Sniper Rifle is gravy. Any Sniper (since BS doesn't change the odds of a Precise Shot) has a 5% chance to snipe a Special Weapon out of a Guard squad which even with a full squad of Ratlings is only a 50% chance which isn't something to start worrying about.

However if your opponent is good at rolling 6's (because let's face it dice aren't as random as all of our Math likes to pretend they are) then Precise Shot can be a problem and if they can do it consistently then they can get Rending Precise Shots denying you your save.

In terms of pure probability Sniper Rifles aren't that scary. In terms of practiced rollers deciding they don't want you to have any Meltaguns anymore they can be a problem.

Snipers (like many other units) sucked in 5:ed and still suck in 6:ed and no body takes them...ever.

Lets hope the lack of sales for these units hurt GW enough to teach them a lesson not to make unusable units in the future (who am I kidding here).

Logically speaking GW ought to have noticed by now that nobody buys legion of the damned, sniper scouts or vanguard vets and thus make them more useful on the tabletop from the overpriced heaps of dung they are not but it´s GW we are talking about...

Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

if i could roll 6's when i wanted i wouldn't need snipers to win a game....

Snipers are good overall, they have a myriad of rules, not the least of which is rending. Overall i think they got more valuable as the need for ap 2 (through rending) has gone up. It's not a major change though, just a slight up shift in their usefulness.

There are a lot more then just ratlings too, in fact they're probably the least scary snipers out there. Rapid fire DS'ing Necron Deathmarks accompanied by a Destroyer lord for preferred enemy on their marked target....can make a mess. Eldar have tons of them... ect.

The doom and gloom come from the same people who were screaming "OMG THE TANKZ ARE USELESS!?!?!?! I HATE GW!!!"

I never really thought snipers were useless. In my evil IG I have a squad of ratlings that I made from skaven. Aside from looking cool, I've found them pretty useful. Then again, I don't immediately discount pinning.

Basically, for every full squad (6+) of ratlings you field, you can pick out one individual model per turn. It's not that big a threat really. It can however be a tactical advantage if you're smart about it. They are not a "KILL ALL THE IC BWAHAHAHAHA" unit. Honestly, I'd use the allocated hits to take out special weapons. They usually don't get LOS!.

They aren't scary, but they at least have more of a purpose than 5th. If you can fit a small squad of snipers in as a objective camping troops, it might be worth it. Especially for eldar that for 95 points you can get 5 guys to sit back and hope to roll some 6s to hit. Not game changing, unless it comes at a great time and he picks off a guy with melta bombs charging a wraithlord, or a melta-gun next to a tank.

A lot of people love snipers, so at least the new rules give them a little viability.

Deathmarks and Rangers are probably the only sniper units that are particularly deadly. Characters are a bigger danger when it comes to picking out units. For most units you can just accept slightly more vulnerability, I'd say that only commisars are an issue being both squishy and vital to blobs.

Snipers were always good at killing MCs and elite infantry. They just now have a single extra rule that if you're lucky you can attempt to place wounds.

There were several squads out there that relied on having hidden weapon upgrades in order to survive. Hidden powerfists, hidden commissars, hidden icons, hidden warlocks, and, of course, hidden special or heavy weapons.

Units that did not rely on hidden stuff, like vehicles, monstrous creatures, uniform squad like scouts or wraithlord, still really don't care about sniper rifles (which is why they're still cheap, other than lack of new codices, of course).

However, for those units who were relying on hidden things, then snipers, along with character precise shot and barrage weapons, really do bring a serious complication.

Just look at those units that can bring a lot of them, like ratlings or scouts. A unit of 10 snipers puts down just shy of two precise shots per turn, which means you're very likely to at least force an armor save, which against guardsmen means you're likely seeing that guardsman killed. Furthermore, sniper rifles still have a chance of rending, which means even space marines aren't safe.

Yes, there's look out, sir, but that only works on a 4+ most of the time, and, more importantly, it doesn't work AT ALL if the sniped model isn't a character (like a standard bearer or a weapon upgrade). If you weren't relying on hidden things in the squad, it doesn't matter, but when the loss of a single mini can really screw with the squad, then snipers (along with other methods above) actually are important.

Take the blob, for example. A squad of 10 rangers puts down 1.66 precise shots. 0.27 wound by rending and another .55 wound and make it past an armor save. That would be 0.82 of your characters killed per turn, which is reduced to .41 with look out, sir.

Put it again, every other turn it survives (which is going to be easier given that most proper sniper units have some form of stealth), that unit is removing a commissar every other turn. Without the commissar, that unit is now just a collection of infantry squads, not a blob, which is a huge difference, especially when close combat comes around. With a little luck, a single enemy unit could shut down two blobs in the firs two turns of the game, which will really dismantle your plans.

Likewise, what happens if you snipe the icons off the board? All those summoned lesser demons now count as destroyed. What happens if you snipe out the aspiring champions? It means that summoned greater demon is going to have to possess an expensive HQ choice. What happens if you snipe out those couple of Klaws? Good luck to that ork army to destroy heavy armor.

Sniper weapons stayed most of their cruddy in most circumstances. Against a few lists, though, they now dismantle them with relative ease.

SM Scouts not bad, but not great. Eldar Rangers are pretty good. The main reason is when they get a 6 and can allocate, it is AP1. Also don't go for characters at first. go for models with Special weapons, and banners, and other things like that first. Then worry about the characters. Of course even if the LOS works, you still killed a model.

But Snipers big role will still be taking down MC's

I have always had a soft spot for my scouts.

At 100 points I get.
- 5 bodies to sit on a objective
- 2+ or 3+ cover save on average in my games... 2+ if they go to ground.
- A ML addition (templates help low BS imo)
- Rending, wounding on 4s regardless, pinning, can glance AV12 if lucky, and now precision shot.

While they are not AMAZING at anything, 1 pinning result in a game can change the tide of battle and I havent found a more cost effective backfield objective sitter yet.

One small help to IG: counter snipe them with Artillery!
To make the most of the sniper rifle, they need to stay still.
Start dropping pie plates from ________ (insert favorite Artty) on them
and they'll move, GtG or die.

You could drop Stormtroopers or Marbo on them too.

At the guys talking about the more scary snipers, other than the necron one (which I've never played against) I'm still not intimidated by them. You're still dropping alot of points just on the odds that you *might* kill a special weapon or sarge a turn. Add in the fact that these are high specialized unit, and that they wont be very helpful in most other situations, i don't think we'll see them often. You're often sinking well over a hundred points a turn, just for a decent chance on killing a GUARDSMAN, and thats not counting MEQ or other similarly tough infantry. This isn't like a 105pt melta stormie squad, which will easily make it's points back in almost any situation, despite being highly specialized. This is a type of weapon that will only be truly useful in a select few circumstances. What do you do with them if you ran into deathwing, or nob bikers? Pray you get really lucky and get lots of 6's? What do you with them against a leafblower list, or henchmen spam? Try and get a lucky rend on a transport?

Another thing worth mentioning is that most snipers are treated as heavy weapons, meaning they'll want to stay still if they're going to be effective. It wouldn't be too hard to position critical models out of sight of snipers especially for an army like IG with our tinier guardsmen. And if my oponent is bringing enough snipers to ensure that he can hit me no matter what, good job, thats a ton of points he should have spent on stuff that could kill my tanks, or my vendettas, or the other 100 angry guardsmen standing next to that plasma guy.

I just dont believe we'll see them in large enough numbers to post a serious threat, unless a person is actively tailoring a list to beat you. There are too many lists out there that would just ignore the snipers for one reason or another, and I don't think we'll see them in too many TAAC lists for that reason. I don't know how it is in your stores, but since thats the only lists we see at where I play, i'm not really worried about them.

Firstly, any weapon upgrade only gives you the chance to kill something. Nothing is guaranteed in the world of shooting in 40k.

Secondly, you're looking at this too narrowly. It's not just that you kill a guardsman, it's that you kill a COMMISSAR, which is way, way more important to what happens in future turns.

The same is true of everything else. It's not just that you've killed a marine with a meltagun, it's that you save yourself all possible damage that that meltagun could have caused. Furthermore, this will make an impact on future tactical decisions. Perhaps that boy mob will have to run away from your tanks without a klaw to attack them with. Perhaps your terminators can now stride freely onto an objective now that there are fewer plasma guns pointed at them.

In this case, a sniper rifle is somewhat subtle, but that doesn't mean that you can just dismiss them. Not all units, weapons and upgrades can be judged purely by how many points they kill back, and the sniper rifle is certainly one such exception.

My experience so far is that snipers, who aren't Deathmarks, are still overpriced, and far too unreliable to have any impact on the game at large.

I agree with Ailaros, If I can reach out a kill the forward melta gun, I killed under 30pts. But I very well might have saved a 50 point Termie, or a 250 point Landraider.

Most snipers are quite terrible. Rangers (pathfinders) are pretty good imho. With their 2+ cover save in ruins, scoring, 5 or 6 on hit to have AP 1, ability to snipe with 6 to hit and Guide casted on them, they are very mean against elite infantry (MEQ). They can snipe special weapons or characters from the unit. They can even kill the whole marine unit because they can mostly survive long enough.

My friend (who plays vanilla marines) has a rather silly obsession with snipers now. He thinks that the wound allocation on 6s is awesome, but he has yet to get his points back from them, heck in the last game I'm not sure if they even fired once!

But then again, I play tau and think his 36" range is cute while I beat up on the rest of his force from farther away.

I think its more of a psychlogical thing with snipers seasoned players wont be to fussed when there sgt is dropped but if they get lucky and manage to drop your space marine warlord or your warboss in a single turn it would create a block in the mind that can put a person off balence anyway im not gonna go out and buy 40 snipers however i may take a small unit of ratlings just for that psychological aspect


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dont forget snipers wound on a 4+ they are still excellent for taking out high toughness Monsterous creatures nurgle bikers etc

Kevin949 wrote:Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

...along with our awesome flamers. Huarhuar.

Sigvatr wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

...along with our awesome flamers. Huarhuar.

Ya, but that wasn't part of the discussion really and is wholly separate from just snipers.

Kevin949 wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

...along with our awesome flamers. Huarhuar.

Ya, but that wasn't part of the discussion really and is wholly separate from just snipers.

I disagree partially. If it's only about the Sniper rule, then yes, it's OOT, but if we're talking about snipers, then it's worth mentioning as this possiblity greatly buffs Eliminators.

You can not speak so much in general any more.
For IG guardmen sniper rifles are cheap and long range and can shoot from chimeras, so can be useful for the platoon command squad.
Ratlings are fun.

Telion is awesome. Then troops for vanilla are an issue so snipers with camo cloaks are at least on par with options available.

Eldar can make the roll of 6 work for them, scoring and increased cover save, what is not to like.

BA sometimes like to have a cheap scoring unit to spend points elsewhere, or sometimes a scoring unit to sit behind an ADL with some dev. squads. This is a very viable tactic.

Anyway there are some examples, from that list most are relatively hard to kill, then only Telion and Eldar are the ones you should be scared by, as the question asks.

Ailaros wrote:
Secondly, you're looking at this too narrowly. It's not just that you kill a guardsman, it's that you kill a COMMISSAR, which is way, way more important to what happens in future turns.

There are a lot of ifs attached to that kill. If you hit, if you roll a 6, if you wound, if the save is failed and if the look out sir roll is failed (if applicable); in an average game it will take a lot of shots to kill that Commissar. Weapon crew kills are easier, but only by a little.

Snipers are OK, good enough to be worth including on the off chance that they do something spectacular, but if points are tight they will quickly find themselves being left at home.

Sigvatr wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

...along with our awesome flamers. Huarhuar.

Ya, but that wasn't part of the discussion really and is wholly separate from just snipers.

I disagree partially. If it's only about the Sniper rule, then yes, it's OOT, but if we're talking about snipers, then it's worth mentioning as this possiblity greatly buffs Eliminators.

But it's not actually the deathmarks doing anything, it's the cryptek benefiting from a rule specific to that unit, has pretty much nothing to do with snipers as far as this topic goes. Yes, it makes the deathmarks much more a priority target for the enemy but even then it's an ability that's only good against one unit (or an IC and subsequently whoever he attaches to).

What really sets the deathmarks apart from other snipers and makes them a little more worrisome for the enemy is the RP, higher save than most other snipers, can deepstrike, and have rapid fire weapons instead of heavy. Especially now that they got rid of the limitation for moving with rapid fire weapons. Sure they don't have the range that others have, but they get far more shots and are generally more survivable than other snipers.

But ya, you stick a despair-tek with veil and an orb-lord in that unit and you've got a great harassing unit.

Palindrome wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Secondly, you're looking at this too narrowly. It's not just that you kill a guardsman, it's that you kill a COMMISSAR, which is way, way more important to what happens in future turns.

There are a lot of ifs attached to that kill.

... and if you'd actually read before you wrote, you would have noticed...

Ailaros wrote:Take the blob, for example. A squad of 10 rangers puts down 1.66 precise shots. 0.27 wound by rending and another .55 wound and make it past an armor save. That would be 0.82 of your characters killed per turn, which is reduced to .41 with look out, sir.

Put it again, every other turn it survives (which is going to be easier given that most proper sniper units have some form of stealth), that unit is removing a commissar every other turn. Without the commissar, that unit is now just a collection of infantry squads, not a blob, which is a huge difference, especially when close combat comes around. With a little luck, a single enemy unit could shut down two blobs in the firs two turns of the game, which will really dismantle your plans.

These kinds of odds are way too risky to base a blob list on. This is mostly because that the results of a failure (in this case, a commissar getting killed), are catastrophic to the entire strategy you were pursuing.

Half the games you play, you're running blobs. The other half of the games you play are just really expensive infantry squads. You don't know until the bottom of turn 1 or 2. This is incredibly disruptive. I mean, imagine there was a rule that said on a 4+, whenever a transport is killed, the entire squad is wiped out straight away, and on a 1, 2, or 3, you used the regular rules for surviving the wreck of a transport. That would be so disruptive so as to make mech armies unplayable, regardless of if you only had a 50-50 shot of it happening in any particular game.

Ailaros wrote:
Half the games you play, you're running blobs. The other half of the games you play are just really expensive infantry squads. You don't know until the bottom of turn 1 or 2. This is incredibly disruptive. I mean, imagine there was a rule that said on a 4+, whenever a transport is killed, the entire squad is wiped out straight away, and on a 1, 2, or 3, you used the regular rules for surviving the wreck of a transport. That would be so disruptive so as to make mech armies unplayable, regardless of if you only had a 50-50 shot of it happening in any particular game.

That's an incredibly inaccurate comparison. One precise shot does not kill the whole unit, it kills only one Commissar. The blob has lost Stubborn and a power axe only.

Please avoid hyperbolic analogies in the future.

I think they are still bad.

DarknessEternal wrote:That's an incredibly inaccurate comparison. One precise shot does not kill the whole unit, it kills only one Commissar. The blob has lost Stubborn and a power axe only.

Please avoid hyperbolic analogies in the future.

You missed the point. The analogy was for how disruptive sniper fire can be to the strategy of some armies, not how many models a single sniper rifle can kill.

And that's exactly what I think other people are missing here too. Sniper rifles don't kill many points worth of models, but their strategic impact can be much bigger than simply the points they make back.