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DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all.

FNP must be resolved first as you do not have an unsaved wound if you pass FNP which would make things like Hexrifles not able to be triggered.

The unsaved wound is not unsaved if the FNP roll is passed, so it would negate the Hexrifles condition.

If you roll the hexrifle first then FNP, you are not treating the wound as if it had been saved as the FNP rule tells us if you pass the FNP roll.

You do realize that he logic you are using prevents you from using FnP in the first place, right? You know the "unsaved wound" part that lets you make the FnP roll, as well as the Hex Rifle, and about a half dozen other things. If it negates the Hex rifles condition it also negates FnP's condition.

megatrons2nd wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all.

FNP must be resolved first as you do not have an unsaved wound if you pass FNP which would make things like Hexrifles not able to be triggered.

The unsaved wound is not unsaved if the FNP roll is passed, so it would negate the Hexrifles condition.

If you roll the hexrifle first then FNP, you are not treating the wound as if it had been saved as the FNP rule tells us if you pass the FNP roll.

You do realize that he logic you are using prevents you from using FnP in the first place, right?

FNP is a Paradox, yes the rule is written so that once you pass FNP you would not have been able to make a FNP roll at all since the wound is not saved.

(This is the Logic written in the rules, this is not my logic, but the logic of GW)

Except that GW put a rule in that covers the situation on pg9. There is no rule anywhere stating that FnP is exempt from this rule. It is specifically triggered on an unsaved wound. ALL unsaved wound triggered items will start at that time. The active player than is allowed to choose the order in which they are resolved. If you don't believe me, turn to page 9 in the BRB, on the bottom left hand side of the page. It is printed even before you get into the other rules.

If you can point me to a location in the rules that specify that FnP always goes first I will gladly concede. But since there is no such location, aside from in your head, I will continue playing the game the correct way.

Except that if the FNP roll is passed there is not actually an unsaved wound, as we are told to treat it as a saved wound. (This is GW's Logic).

So they are not actually at the same time, even though a superficial reading of the rules would make them seem like they are.

If you let Hexrifle go first, then you pass a FNP roll you have broken the rule about the Hexrifle triggering off of the saved wound, as a Hexrifle only triggers off of an Unsaved wound.

That is why FNP goes before everything else.

it is because we do not know if we actually have an unsaved wound until a FNP roll is made.

Play the game with whatever house rules you want, but do not call it the "correct way".

Logically that is the way to do it, but the paradox is that strict RAW, you can have a Hexrifle go before FNP, causing all this mess.

The trigger of both special rules is EXACTLY the same. So RAW they trigger at the exact same time.

There is absolutely no indication in FNP's wording that it should get priority over any rule. So you resolve this like any other situation when 2 rules happen at the same time.

I see where he is getting his oops in his logic. He is saying that the special rule should resolve because the end result of it is a saved wound. The problem is that the end result is the effect of the special rule, as is the Removed from play, and Instant death of the other rules. You do not resolve the effects of a special rule first, you check the START of the special rule, or the event that causes them. He is skipping over everything else, which is not what is meant. It is there in black and white when two rules are supposed to go at the same time the active player chooses the order. Simple. FnP resolves on an unsaved wound, as does the Hex Rifle, Bone Swords, and a couple more. FnP does not anywhere state that it is resolved BEFORE other rules that happen on the same event. The event is the catalyst for the rules, not the end of another special rule.

Except if you try and resolve Hexrifle first, then pass you FNP roll, you have broken the rules and used the Hexrifle's effect on a saved wound.

That is why FNP goes before other things that activate on an Unsaved wound.

In 5th, I disagreed with DeathReaper on this...

But, in 6th, I think he's right.

The key phrase for me is the whole "...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved." That is new in 6th. How can you know if that wound is "saved"? Ergo, it needs to go first. Otherwise, you'd have a true paradox.

Right?

DeathReaper wrote:Except if you try and resolve Hexrifle first, then pass you FNP roll, you have broken the rules and used the Hexrifle's effect on a saved wound.

That is why FNP goes before other things that activate on an Unsaved wound.

Why do you get to make a FNP roll even after you have been removed from play?

Or alternatively

Why don't I get to use the Hexrifles special rule even after you have successfully used FNP?

You seem to have a double standard here in saying FNP can prevent the Hexrifle but not the other way around, so I'd like you to answer one of these 2 questions so I can understand where you are coming from.

Drunkspleen wrote:Why don't I get to use the Hexrifles special rule even after you have successfully used FNP?.

Because a successful FNP roll results in a wound we treat as a saved wound.

So if Hexrifle triggers off of a saved wound then you can use it, otherwise you can not use it.

Since the Hexrifle requires an Unsaved wound, and we have a saved wound after a successful FNP roll you can not use the Hexrifle's effect.

DeathReaper wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Why don't I get to use the Hexrifles special rule even after you have successfully used FNP?.

Because a successful FNP roll results in a wound we treat as a saved wound.

So if Hexrifle triggers off of a saved wound then you can use it, otherwise you can not use it.

Since the Hexrifle requires an Unsaved wound, and we have a saved wound after a successful FNP roll you can not use the Hexrifle's effect.

Right, and the same applies in reverse, if the model no longer exists he can't use his FNP special rule

So if the hexrifle triggers off an unsaved wound, you can't attempt to turn it into a saved one using FNP.

Drunkspleen wrote:So if the hexrifle triggers off an unsaved wound, you can't attempt to turn it into a saved one using FNP.

That requires you to go against what FNP states. we are not allowed to break the rules by taking the Hexrifle test first.

Because we know we get to use FNP against an Unsaved wound, so taking the Hexrifle test first breaks the FNP rule.

The reverse is not true, since after the successful FNP roll there is no Unsaved wound anymore.

There is an unsaved wound. You need it to make the FnP roll in the first place. This is the point you would make any roll for an ability that is triggered by an unsaved wound. FnP does not have a rule that allows it to beat every other special rule.

How do you get to use FnP?
Answer: When you suffer an unsaved wound.

When do you roll for force?
Answer: When you suffer an unsaved wound.

When do you test for the Hex Rifle?
Answer: When you suffer an unsaved wound.

The Exceptional rule makes the active player choose the order these resolve. If you are removed from play or the item becomes instant death, then it is over and FnP will not kick in, if not than you can than ignore the wound. On your turn you may make FnP go first, which can then make the other abilities not function. Read the Exceptional Rule very carefully. When 2 special rules tell you to do something at the same time.......

Not true, as you do not know if you actually have an unsaved wound until you resolve FNP.

To make anything go off before FNP will break the FNP rule, which we are not allowed to do without explicit permission.

Hexrifle has no such permission.

Taking the Hexrifle test first breaks the FNP rule because if you fail a Hexrifle roll you are removed and it does not specifically disallow a FNP roll, and if you were not allowed to take a FNP roll you are breaking the FNP rule.

To be able to take a FNP roll, you must first have a unsaved wound, Correct?

No unsaved wound, you have no permission to make a FNP roll.

Since FNP triggers at the same time as the others, even tho if it is successful the wound would go away, it still triggers off the same event. Since they trigger at the same time the active player gets to decide. There is no rule in FNP that says it gets to supersede the other rules, they all have the same trigger condition.

You keep stating the same thing, but the rules just dont back you up. Nothing ever tells you FNP gets to go first, so you MUST go by its trigger condition, even tho if it did go first it could cancel the other effects.

DarkOmen wrote:Nothing ever tells you FNP gets to go first, so you MUST go by its trigger condition, even tho if it did go first it could cancel the other effects.

But that is why it must go first, because if it does work it untriggers all the other effects;
and technically itself in something of a grandfather paradox
but at that stage we don't care since the wound has been saved and we can get on with the game.

Rules don't care what another rule will do later. The wording of both rules make them happen at the same time, , and BRB shows how to resolve such cases.

OK so lets see Bob the Painboy takes an unsaved wound from a hexrifle.

Scenario 1.
1. Suffers unsaved Wound.
2. Rolls FNP.
3.Passes, YAY!!
4. WAAAAAGH!!!
or,
3. Fails, BOOOO!
4. Takes Wounds test.
5. Fails. removed from play.

Scenario 2.
1. Suffers unsaved Wound.
2. Takes Wounds test.
3. Fails, Oh, wait he also gets FNP since the unsaved Wound does not inflict ID.
4. Passes
5. Now what? He has to be RFP because he failed the Toughness test which means the wound isn't treated as saved which it does because he passed FNP...

It doesn't matter what happens to the wound afterwards. All it matters is that the trigger conditions for the hexrifle are met.

copper.talos wrote:It doesn't matter what happens to the wound afterwards. All it matters is that the trigger conditions for the hexrifle are met.

And they are not met if you pass FNP.

The Unsaved wound may or may not be an unsaved wound pending the outcome of the FNP roll.

The condition that triggers the hexrifle is the exact same condition that triggers FNP. If one gets activated si does the other. BRB shows how to handle such cases.

Except if you activate the Hexrifle first, then pass your FNP save then you have broken the rules, as you activated the Hexrifle off of a saved wound.

Happyjew wrote:OK so lets see Bob the Painboy takes an unsaved wound from a hexrifle.

Scenario 1.
1. Suffers unsaved Wound.
2. Rolls FNP.
3.Passes, YAY!!
4. WAAAAAGH!!!
or,
3. Fails, BOOOO!
4. Takes Wounds test.
5. Fails. removed from play.

Scenario 2.
1. Suffers unsaved Wound.
2. Takes Wounds test.
3. Fails, Oh, wait he also gets FNP since the unsaved Wound does not inflict ID.
4. Passes
5. Now what? He has to be RFP because he failed the Toughness test which means the wound isn't treated as saved which it does because he passed FNP...

What is with this idea that the model gets to make a Feel No Pain roll even after they have been removed from play, particularly highlighted by the ridiculous double standard of saying FNP can prevent other rules from triggering in the first place, if FNP can do it, so can a hexrifle.

Because the only thing that denies a model with FNP from using it is a wound that inflicts ID. Since the Hexrifle does not an ID wound (even on a failed characteristic test). the model still gets FNP.

Happyjew wrote:Because the only thing that denies a model with FNP from using it is a wound that inflicts ID. Since the Hexrifle does not an ID wound (even on a failed characteristic test). the model still gets FNP.

This.

And if the FNP is passed then the other rules are not triggered since the wound is now saved.

Think about Force. I do 6 wounds with a set of force weapons to your squad. You pass 2 FnP saves. With the Brotherhood of Psychers rule, all the force weapons are activated, now you broke the FnP rule of not being able to be used against weapons that cause instant death. They are all activated at the same time, thus the wounds you passed with the FnP at that Initiative should not have gotten a FnP roll.

Luckily Force has an "immediately" clause so would go before FnP even in your turn, buy the rule as written on page 9.

Force weapons (and boneswords/bonesabres) vs FNP is debatable. However, this thread is only dealing with FNP and Hexrifles.

FWIW I agree that FNP should come before everything else, and is how I would play it, but this has no bearing on my arguments for this thread.

megatrons2nd wrote:Think about Force. I do 6 wounds with a set of force weapons to your squad. You pass 2 FnP saves. With the Brotherhood of Psychers rule, all the force weapons are activated, now you broke the FnP rule of not being able to be used against weapons that cause instant death. They are all activated at the same time, thus the wounds you passed with the FnP at that Initiative should not have gotten a FnP roll.

Luckily Force has an "immediately" clause so would go before FnP even in your turn, buy the rule as written on page 9.

Again you do not know if you have a saved wound until you take your FNP saves, so there is no issue with NFW's since those wounds are treated as saved.

You treat the wounds as saved, so when you take FNP they do not cause ID. we treat them as saved and NFW's activate as normal.

No issues.

Actually Happy, its pretty much the same discussion. RAW, the controlling player determines the effect first, so the Hex could go first and remove the target. But that causes an issue that if the FNP (when it goes second) cancels the wound you have a paradox. The Hexrifle met all the conditions to trigger when it went off, but FNP retroactively reversed those conditions. So you could have a model removed by the Hexrifle from a Saved wound.