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Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:If you’re the kind of player who plays orks because you get to roll on lots of tables, roll big handfuls of dice, and shout “waagh!!!!!!!!” at least once a game, then the basic rulebook powers are exactly what you’re looking for.

.....the article wasn't really meant for you.

I'm not though. I like to be able to plan things out. Yeah, it's a dice game. But if I roll 50 dice, ~25 are going to be 4+, and I can plan around that. Random Psychic powers isn't anything like that. I'm glad you're fine with it as it is, that's very nice for you.

Well seeing as I don't play orks anymore, but when I did I would only just say "going to wagh this turn"...

But it's cool man, you can plan out all the psychic powers you want, just don't come crying when my runes of warding causes you to ragequit.

Whoa......there's a fair bit of misinformation some of you are throwing around.

Gloomfang wrote:@Sir_Prometheus

I am just wondering what fixes you would like? Twice as many powers as Mastery level (Like the Swarmlord)? Cheaper psyker options for more armys?

Or are you just worried that in the future they will start making every codex "Roll on these tables for your powers" and there will be no more standard powers and you will be forced to deal with the random? (And I think from reading your blog that is the case).

The point isn't really to "whine about the BRB powers" (though of course, I do do that) but to analyse the subject, put it all in perspective, and perhaps point out some facts some people may not have realized. Which, since even after reading this a few people made comments that were just not true, apparently was needed.

It's also not meant to be a prayer to the GW gods on how to change things. They haven't listened yet. They don't know how to write rules. They end.

As I mentioned on my main blog post (http://prometheusatwar.com/2012/08/the-problem-with-psychic-disciplines-and-rulebook-powers-in-6th-edition-40k-2/) many players will be better off taking powers from their book, but some have bad powers (tyranids) and GK will probably want to take Divination, cuz it's just literally almost never bad.

Gloomfang wrote:Yes there are multiple points of failure with psykers. Its the same with shooting. A roll to hit, a roll to wound and an armor save and posibly a FNP roll.

It's not even a little bit the same. All those "tests" that you mentioned with a shooting attack, a psychic attack has to pass the same ones. But the psychic power ALSO has to pass leadership and Deny The Witch. This means any psychic power that copies a weapon is automatically .91*.83=.758= 75.8% worse. If you had a mind blast that acted like plasma cannon, it will do 75% less dmg over the course of the game, at least (we haven't figured for any other psychic defenses, or a DTW roll better than 6+) and it probably costs 3x as much.


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wtwlf123 wrote:But if this is your attitude about them, don't take them.

You said something to this effect a few times, as did a few others. But how is this a helpful comment? This is a tactics forum. If I had made a post saying "Problems with vehicles in 6th edition" and pointed out all the ways they had been nerfed would you say "well, if you don't like tanks, don't take them"?

I'm trying to elevate the conversation here. The whole point of this is to turn the new system over in our minds. I think there are many things there that people don't realize. If you just want to take the same powers you've always taken and not worry about it...go ahead. None of this affects you then. But a lot of people are looking at Pyromancy and sayoing "oh boy, oh boy, those are awesome!" And yeah, they're shiny, but they don't actually do very much, and those players need education.

Testify wrote:Prescience. Unit can re-roll all "to hit" rolls.
Every pyscic unit in 40k just got one of eldar's best powers - for free.

Not every army can take this power. And there's what ...7 armies that can't take any of the powers?

And of the 16+ codexes that are available, only 5 of them can use Divination; and one of those 5 is the Eldar. And they have no need for it because they can combine their version of it with Doom.

So I don't see this as much of a problem at all.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:You said something to this effect a few times, as did a few others. But how is this a helpful comment?

Did you actually read my first comment that was addressed at you? I already explained why complaining about extra free options is a waste of time.

Unlike complaining about Vehicles in 6th or random assault ranges, the new psychic powers are completely optional. They don't have to change how you played before. If you don't like them, that's fine. You prefer the consistency and planning ahead that comes with taking your codex powers. And that's great. I do too. So if that's the case, this doesn't change anything. People that like the new free extra powers can take them. Simple as that.

Dude? I wanted to discuss the facts and tactics in the new disciplines. You seem to want to say, "they're free, so you don't get to comment on them."

Well, I do, and I want to. This thread is apparently not for you.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:This thread is apparently not for you.

And this is where you fall flat on your face; this is a discussion board and every thread is everyone. Don't complain you want to discuss something and then get stroppy because people disagree with you.

I wanted to discuss the facts and tactics in the new disciplines

That's fair enough. It's worth noting though that the thread title doesn't make it seem like a balanced or objective view (though it may well be intended to be), so you're going to find peopel's views of what you've wrote tend to be coloured by the perception the title has set.

Why not change the title to something like:

Thoughts on Psychic Disciplines in 6th Edition 40K?

Then you might perhaps get more give and take rather than people disagreeing that problems exist.

I do think there are some problems with how the powers are selected and the cost and effectiveness of some of the powers (Vortex of Doom might be okay at 2pts if it just had normal perils), but on the whole I don't think it's actually that bad in terms of it affecting overall game balance -- in fact I think it's helped some weaker codices quite a lot (Tyranids at least).

Shooting psychic attacks are a main focus of the new powers, but they're a poor choice for all the reasons listed, which is why I think competitive armies will focus on divination,codex powers, or just ignore/defend against psychic.

I think that's the complaint, and it's a legitimate one. Psychic stuff was really weak in 5th, and players wanted more. We have a lot of new rules for psychic stuff, but has much really changed on who takes powers, how effective they are, etc? Not really...the only real positive difference I've felt is that Coteaz, who was already an awesome buy at 100 points, now gives me a lvl 2 psyker wirh divination on top of everything else, for a codex that didn't need more help.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:This thread is apparently not for you.

And this is where you fall flat on your face; this is a discussion board and every thread is everyone. Don't complain you want to discuss something and then get stroppy because people disagree with you.

He wasn't disagreeing, he was saying "don't discuss it". I welcome debate, on the other hand.


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Blood and Slaughter wrote:

I wanted to discuss the facts and tactics in the new disciplines

That's fair enough. It's worth noting though that the thread title doesn't make it seem like a balanced or objective view (though it may well be intended to be), so you're going to find peopel's views of what you've wrote tend to be coloured by the perception the title has set.

Why not change the title to something like:

Thoughts on Psychic Disciplines in 6th Edition 40K?

Then you might perhaps get more give and take rather than people disagreeing that problems exist.

I do think there are some problems with how the powers are selected and the cost and effectiveness of some of the powers (Vortex of Doom might be okay at 2pts if it just had normal perils), but on the whole I don't think it's actually that bad in terms of it affecting overall game balance -- in fact I think it's helped some weaker codices quite a lot (Tyranids at least).

Well, it's a little late to change the title now, but I also feel its accurate......the psychic disciplines are just bad, for the most part, and very poorly balanced.

Yeah, it's a huge benefit to tyrannids. Biomancy does great things for their MCs, they get a ton of powers, and their stock powers mostly aren't that great. As I point out in the blog though, it's a little mean that brood lords can't cast 2 of 3 primaris powers they have access to.

Honestly, by the numbers, tyrannids will take some powers, those armies that can get divination will take it, and everyone else is better off with their codex powers.

And yeah, Coteaz is stupid awesome.

Really, my great fear is that new codexes will no longer have basic powers that you get to choose. They're clearly looking to emulate Fantasy here, so yeah, Chaos will have their "Tzeench discipline" that they have to roll on, and get to pick BRB powers as well, but nothing they can depend on.

Thing is, as much as people complain about purple sun and all, Fantasy lores are way better balanced than psyker disciplines. I'm really astounded how bad they are.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:He wasn't disagreeing, he was saying "don't discuss it". I welcome debate, on the other hand.

No, I'm not suggesting that we don't discuss it. On the contrary, they should be discussed. But your entire attitude is that they're a "problem". I don't see them as a problem. The title of the thread isn't "Lets discuss the 6th ed. psychic disciplines". It's "The PROBLEM with psychic disciplines". I don't think they are a problem, and that's what I'm discussing.

They're random. You see that as a problem, and I don't. If you want to be in full control of the powers to build an army around, great! I agree with that. That's why I use the Codex powers instead. I want to know what I'm gonna get, and plan ahead accordingly.

The new powers are optional. They're extra powers bestowed to armies that didn't have them before. Even if you don't like them, they're still tertiary powers to the existing ones. I see that as a good thing.

Some players love the fact that the powers are randomized. It's a game of luck and throwing dice as much as it is a game of tactics. Superior composition, tactics and army composition will ultimately outweigh the randomness that comes with it. YOU clearly understand that, which is why you don't like the powers. You and I are in total agreement in that regard. The difference, is that because they're both optional AND additional, I don't find them to be problematic at all. Some players will love them and use them to no end. But folks like you and I that value consistency above all else can simply choose not to use them. That's all I'm saying.

Really, my great fear is that new codexes will no longer have basic powers that you get to choose

Unlikely to be true for all codices I would have thought, but perhaps some might be so limited. I suppose we'll see.

"The problem with" or "why you shouldn't take them" what's the difference?

What, exactly, is your point, wtwlf123? I think they are bad, stated my case, you say you agree, soooooooo.......

 Carnage43 wrote:

Testify wrote:I didn't mention telepathy, you did.

I was simply saying that one of the default powers - that you can get without rolling for - was considered in 5th to be a damn solid choice.

And it targets any friendly unit within 12".

Okay, I misunderstood this....

Also isn't there a discipline that's default power is like Doom but a load better?

I thought you meant Doom of malantai, as telepathy's primary is very similar to his ability. You meant Eldar farseer Doom in comparison to Prescience.

Yeah sorry, I was pretty drunk when I made that post

I stand by my point. Codex powers are no slackers - 'nids get a S10 AP1 Lance, marines (of all flavours) get plenty of good stuff, guard get weaken resolve.

Oh and Chaos are about to get their own pyscic tables - if the rumours are true, one for each God (sans Khorne).

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
"The problem with" or "why you shouldn't take them" what's the difference?

What, exactly, is your point, wtwlf123? I think they are bad, stated my case, you say you agree, soooooooo.......

What exactly is your point? If you don't like them, but they're completely optional... where's the problem?

I don't like them, but there's no problem with them. That's the difference. You're assuming that simply because you don't like them, that there's something inherently "wrong" with them. That's where you and I differ.

Ok, my points on the "Facts" of the new disciplines:

They're all randomly generated, which is great because if you always knew you could get misfortune, I might give up the game.

Nid psy spam is stupid, WAAC and TFG play. It's utterly preposterous to have 6 units of 5 man genestealers and tons of zoanthropes. Some people can't read the nid codex it seems, you need hormagaunts, lots of them, not this cheesy nonsense.

The boost to psy powers is counterbalanced by perils just doing a wound with no way to stop it besides FNP.

Space wolves are still fools, and their super cheap stuff, plus great psy defense is still dumb, at least they can't get fliers without allies nor do they have flakk missiles.

Focused witchfire powers are great, just use them against solo targets like MC's and tanks. Don't be a derp.

In closing: 6th edition JUST CAME OUT, seriously, calm the F down and let a few more codexes come out before you yell "fire"

Stupid post. Delete.

wtwfl123 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus
wrote:"The problem with" or "why you shouldn't take them" what's the difference?

What, exactly, is your point, wtwlf123? I think they are bad, stated my case, you say you agree, soooooooo.......

What exactly is your point? If you don't like them, but they're completely optional... where's the problem?

I don't like them, but there's no problem with them. That's the difference. You're assuming that simply because you don't like them, that there's something inherently "wrong" with them. That's where you and I differ.

I kinda thought I stated my points, all of them quite clearly. Again, are you saying because they're optional, we can't discuss them? If not, can we move along to discussing them! Cuz that's what I came here to do.

Seriously.

JotWW is now a lot less effective(thank gooodness) it doesn't work on FMC and tyrygons and such stop it on a broodlord and tyrants and such stop it on a 5+.
As for running. Commando squads of stealers with Blords, i would say the cheese factor is more in the challanged then in the psykers. And stealers are expensive scoring units. And the 5carnifax tervigon list is much worse to face then the 6 broodlord list.

And my point about shooting and psyker powers is that i consider DtW to be the save as a FNP roll against shooting. It is just a save like anything else.

 juraigamer wrote:
Ok, my points on the "Facts" of the new disciplines:

They're all randomly generated, which is great because if you always knew you could get misfortune, I might give up the game.

This is his whole point really. It's so random that one game your psyker is a game changing wrecking ball and the next he's a worthless piece of garbage. Random is bad for competitive play in both directions. You don't want little Timmy newbie gamer rolling some insane selection of powers and blowing you off the board anymore then you want him rolling garbage and it allowing you to blow HIM off the board. A model worth X number of points should be as effective as X number of points every single game, not worth twice that sometimes and half that at others.

Nid psy spam is stupid, WAAC and TFG play. It's utterly preposterous to have 6 units of 5 man genestealers and tons of zoanthropes. Some people can't read the nid codex it seems, you need hormagaunts, lots of them, not this cheesy nonsense.

You don't NEED anything. If someone wants to roll with 17 psykers, then they can roll with 17 psykers. Just like a necron player can use 9+ flyers, or GKs can play Draigo wing. It's a legal build, either deal with it or don't play it. Many of us are tournament players or come from small gaming groups so not playing it isn't an option, and we need to learn how to deal with it. Personally I think the psy-spam nid builds are far too random and gimmicky to be effective, especially now that genestealers are decidedly mediocre overall. Also, hormagaunts stink.

Space wolves are still fools, and their super cheap stuff, plus great psy defense is still dumb, at least they can't get fliers without allies nor do they have flakk missiles.

Don't get flyers and flakk....YET. They are literally one WD paragraph away from being back to top tier. All it would take is something like. "Any model with a missile launcher can purchase flakk missiles at +5 points". Done.

In closing: 6th edition JUST CAME OUT, seriously, calm the F down and let a few more codexes come out before you yell "fire"

Sure, it's all well and good that the game will properly balance things out when more codexes are released, but how long will that take? 2-3 years? I'm playing the game today, and tomorrow and next week. I have to deal with what exists now right now. Saying it will get better later does exactly nothing for us right now. The way it is right now, shouting "FIRE" is kind of appropriate.

Nova is in 2 week, and I eagerly await to see how that all goes down.

Yeah, but thing, you get FNP and the DTW at the same time. So any power that does straight dmg is almost never worth the cost.

"Removed from play" abilities lot JOTWW are different obviously. But they're not what I'm talking about, and no BRB powers work like that.

Psyker powers clearly gave brood lords new life, cuz no one used them before, do that's great. Just the same, because of BS0 they're not actually that great on the charts. I think one roll on telekinesis, because they can guarantee a power they can use, and then one roll on biomancy, cuz most of those are gray for them.

i love the new powers the randomness makes em extra fun beccause telapathy is the best chart and i always get something useful and is fun to take with 1k sons and daemon princes 8 rolls on the table some phsycic shennanagins shall be had! if your taking psychers in the first place you already have some randomness because unlike normal models guarenteed certain shots abilities + stuff you could just roll an 11 fail your test and ruin a devious plot so if ya dont like em dont take em.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Yeah, but thing, you get FNP and the DTW at the same time. So any power that does straight dmg is almost never worth the cost.

Ok I get that. Most PSA's are little week. Its why I swap out my Zoantropes powers. Lance is great, but the chance of it doing something good is low. I would rather roll TK on a brood of 3 and know that I have an almost certain OM on the brood. And the other 5 powers are probably going to get something useful.

Psyker powers clearly gave brood lords new life, cuz no one used them before, do that's great. Just the same, because of BS0 they're not actually that great on the charts. I think one roll on telekinesis, because they can guarantee a power they can use, and then one roll on biomancy, cuz most of those are gray for them.

I don't usually split my rolls on a psyker unless I am going for shriek. And Broodlords were aways decent. 6th has made them awesome.

Well, like I said, the "assail" power is probably at least border line useful to them.

I don't think I'd ever switchout Zoathropes for BRB powers.....their blast is better than any other power they can get, mostly. That said, dmg powers are still "not good" even as I said, so hive guard are usually still better. And you can get so many psykers in other places, I don't see much need to use zoanthropes to get random buffs.

This means any psychic power that copies a weapon is automatically .91*.83=.758= 75.8% worse. If you had a mind blast that acted like plasma cannon, it will do 75% less dmg over the course of the game, at least

I assume you mean they are 25% worse and do 25% less damage, they hit ~75% of the time that the thing you are comparing to does, that is not the same as 75% less damage!

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I don't think I'd ever switchout Zoathropes for BRB powers.....their blast is better than any other power they can get, mostly. That said, dmg powers are still "not good" even as I said, so hive guard are usually still better. And you can get so many psykers in other places, I don't see much need to use zoanthropes to get random buffs.

Not a big fan of PSA for reasons mentioned. The main disadvantage of having a unit of Zoans is that the whole unit needs to fire at the same target. With the general nerf to Mech and the buffs to MCs there really is no need for Warp Lance anymore. It was always a very hit or miss power. Warp Blast is marginally better.

I think as time goes by Zoans will be more support than fire base. I am already seeing Hive Guard dropping off of people's lists. My current list has no Hive Guard and only 2-3 Zoans for support. Like I said I tend to take TK with them as that way they have a nice mix of Buffs (TK Dome), Debuffs (OM, Assail and Shockwave), some Direct Damage (Crush) and some movement without needing a Pod (Gate).

I expect Competitive Nid lists to have Deathleaper, Doom in a pod and/or Ymgarl Stealers occupying the Elite slots in much higher numbers. For the cost of a unit of 3 Hive Guard I can take 15 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs and Adreanal Glands that can kill AV10 rear much more realiably than the Hive Guard and they are scoring. Anything that the guants can't kill the guard were probably going to have a hard time with anyway and that is a job for Trygons, Tervigons and Tyrants anyway.

As a nid player currently painting Zoeys I expect to be rolling for powers more often than keeping the codex ones. There are times (e.g. very mech heavy force) that I would maybe keep the codex powers, but otherwise I'll enjoy the biggest advantageof psykers - the option to look at what you face and decide what you want to go for.

Biomancy: For Zoeys there are probably only 2 good powers; Endurance (nice) and Enfeeble (fantastic), and with 6 powers to roll against is the most random set.

Telekinesis: Gate, OM, Telekinmetic dome are all good, OM in particular against flyers. There is also the Nova power, which whilst not great, is possibly a good anti MSU power, especially with Gate. There are 5 powers you roll against so you have a better chance of getting something useful.

Telepathy, Only 4 powers to roll against, and only 1 is more or less useless for nids (the make a unit regroup and fearless). The others are good, and the primaris power is arguably the best of the primaris powers for nids. If you have deathleaper then the 2 that require leadership tests can be great for nobbling characters.



Overall I agree more with wtwlf123, yes they have problems as you point out, but so what? The BRB powers are there for you to use optionally if you do not want to use the codex powers.

I might find that some one rolls some great set of powers, or I might find that I face someone with the Eldar uber dude as an ally, or the other codices with excellent powers in them. Having to face an army with great psychic powers is not something that happens only because someone rolled them.

Equally I might not roll the powers I want, but that was my choice to take that chance. If I want certainty I stick to codex powers, if I want the huge advantage of looking at the enemy force before I choose then I accept the chance I don't get what I wanted.

puree wrote:

This means any psychic power that copies a weapon is automatically .91*.83=.758= 75.8% worse. If you had a mind blast that acted like plasma cannon, it will do 75% less dmg over the course of the game, at least

I assume you mean they are 25% worse and do 25% less damage, they hit ~75% of the time that the thing you are comparing to does, that is not the same as 75% less damage!

What I actually meant was "This means any psychic power that copies a weapon is automatically (.91*.83=.758= 75.8%) worse" meaning they are "worse, because .91*.83=.758= 75.8%"" but yes, I think we're all on the same page here.


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puree wrote:

Overall I agree more with wtwlf123, yes they have problems as you point out, but so what? The BRB powers are there for you to use optionally if you do not want to use the codex powers.

Again, the whole point of the post was, "BRB powers are mostly bad, here's why". If you're fine with them being bad....ok. But I do indeed worry that in new codexes, you'll be forced to use the BRB disciplines.

And yeah, it's all worth noting that the BRB powers are better for tyranids than most other lists. A fair bit of the powers they roll will be bad for them....but they can generally take a enough psykers it won't matter much,a dn some of them are just what 'nids need.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:



It's not even a little bit the same. All those "tests" that you mentioned with a shooting attack, a psychic attack has to pass the same ones. But the psychic power ALSO has to pass leadership and Deny The Witch. This means any psychic power that copies a weapon is automatically .91*.83=.758= 75.8% worse. If you had a mind blast that acted like plasma cannon, it will do 75% less dmg over the course of the game, at least (we haven't figured for any other psychic defenses, or a DTW roll better than 6+) and it probably costs 3x as much.

They are not 75.8% worse (though your math is correct). They are 24.2% worse. Because 75.8% of the time you have the same result, the chance of failure (1-Chance of success) is the amount the power is worse.


but I agree with everything else you said.

The OP seems to have summed up my thoughts on the new psychic rules. I really don't want to see set codex specific powers disappear in favor of the random tables, but it's going to happen.

jbunny wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:



It's not even a little bit the same. All those "tests" that you mentioned with a shooting attack, a psychic attack has to pass the same ones. But the psychic power ALSO has to pass leadership and Deny The Witch. This means any psychic power that copies a weapon is automatically .91*.83=.758= 75.8% worse. If you had a mind blast that acted like plasma cannon, it will do 75% less dmg over the course of the game, at least (we haven't figured for any other psychic defenses, or a DTW roll better than 6+) and it probably costs 3x as much.

They are not 75.8% worse (though your math is correct). They are 24.2% worse. Because 75.8% of the time you have the same result, the chance of failure (1-Chance of success) is the amount the power is worse.


but I agree with everything else you said.

I thought I just clarified that? Yes, yes, 75% as effective = 25% worse.

 wtwlf123 wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I think he makes a lot of good points. Psychic powers cost a lot of points to use, *and* there are multiple ways for them to fail, *and* you might not even get a power you want. So it is easy to spend a lot of points on a psyker and get little to no use out of it.

But if this is your attitude about them, don't take them.

Oh good one. You will be forced to take them at some point. When the new CSM codex comes out, I'm betting money it will have only psychic disciplines.