Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am saying you guys are in the right RAW. I'm not debating that. I'm also saying that I personally belive this is rules exploitation and it was never meant for something as dependable as a force weapon (especially one that auto passes the test) to not deny FNP. Is it fully within the rules? Yes. Should you feel awful for doing it? At the very least.

I am under the impression that there is no reason you cany roll the psychic test for the FW before you strike blows if it really is an issue.

How do you figure there is no RAW ground? There is like 3 weapons that have the "instant death" rule that don't have an activation trigger. So you take and add a trigger and suddenly it doesn't have the rule? If it says "causes instant death" or "suffers from instant death", it sure sounds like it has the instant death rule to me. As it has the rule you can't FNP it at all. Now if it says "removed as a casualty regardless of wounds" or something similar, it does not have the rule and may have FNP taken.

As to the go back and alter a previous rules effect, why can FNP do it and activating a force weapon can't? Death Reaper says you can make a failed test from the hexrifle's removed from play ability no longer apply and put the model back in play, so why can't a phase that has activated a force weapon do the opposite? It is the same initiative step, right? One rule is suddenly removing the ability to use another isn't it? Same effect, right?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I am saying you guys are in the right RAW. I'm not debating that. I'm also saying that I personally belive this is rules exploitation and it was never meant for something as dependable as a force weapon (especially one that auto passes the test) to not deny FNP. Is it fully within the rules? Yes. Should you feel awful for doing it? At the very least.

I should feel awful for following the rules?
That's like me saying you should feel awful for using Force weapons against my Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.

I am under the impression that there is no reason you cany roll the psychic test for the FW before you strike blows if it really is an issue.

Besides the fact that it's completely against the rules to do that, sure.

Like I said, house rule it however you want.

Unfortunately no. It is an issue in timing. You roll the test at the end of the phase while the saves are taken at the time of the wounds. Test comes after wounds and saves are taken so it isint assured to cause ID at the time of the wounds. I think its cheesy as hell but they do have the RAW.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
How do you figure there is no RAW ground? There is like 3 weapons that have the "instant death" rule that don't have an activation trigger. So you take and add a trigger and suddenly it doesn't have the rule? If it says "causes instant death" or "suffers from instant death", it sure sounds like it has the instant death rule to me.

No, it has the Bonesword rule, or the Force rule, or something similar. It doesn't have the Instant Death rule.

As it has the rule you can't FNP it at all. Now if it says "removed as a casualty regardless of wounds" or something similar, it does not have the rule and may have FNP taken.

Not true. If the wound causes ID you can't FNP it. A Force weapon doesn't cause ID unless you spend a charge/pass the test. If it's not causing ID I can FNP it.

As to the go back and alter a previous rules effect, why can FNP do it and activating a force weapon can't? Death Reaper says you can make a failed test from the hexrifle's removed from play ability no longer apply and put the model back in play, so why can't a phase that has activated a force weapon do the opposite? It is the same initiative step, right? One rule is suddenly removing the ability to use another isn't it? Same effect, right?

FNP explicitly says the wound is treated as saved, which requires you to go back in time essentially. Activating a Force weapon or whatever doesn't.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
When does the force weapon activate?
Have the wounds and saves process been completed for the models that strikes first in your GK squad?

If the weapon is not causing ID when it wounds then why should FNP not be applied?

Yes, you suffered an unsaved wound, because if you didn't you couldn't use FNP to begin with. FNP is not part of the "save" process and is a special rule, just like "Force".

It is taken at the same time as saves. Agian, its a stupid loophole but its there.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I am saying you guys are in the right RAW. I'm not debating that. I'm also saying that I personally belive this is rules exploitation and it was never meant for something as dependable as a force weapon (especially one that auto passes the test) to not deny FNP. Is it fully within the rules? Yes. Should you feel awful for doing it? At the very least.

I should feel awful for following the rules?
That's like me saying you should feel awful for using Force weapons against my Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.

Yes you should. They just want to give you a hug...with their teeth

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote:

I should feel awful for following the rules?
That's like me saying you should feel awful for using Force weapons against my Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.

No. Its more akin to me re-picking targets with deathmarks because I deploy them via deepstrike with a veil of darkness.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
When does the force weapon activate?
Have the wounds and saves process been completed for the models that strikes first in your GK squad?

If the weapon is not causing ID when it wounds then why should FNP not be applied?

Yes, you suffered an unsaved wound, because if you didn't you couldn't use FNP to begin with. FNP is not part of the "save" process and is a special rule, just like "Force".

Good job pity it is irrelevant. You make FNP before you test for force so if you are not inflicting and ID at the time of inflicting a wound then you cannot inflict ID at that stage.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Unfortunately no. It is an issue in timing. You roll the test at the end of the phase while the saves are taken at the time of the wounds. Test comes after wounds and saves are taken so it isint assured to cause ID at the time of the wounds. I think its cheesy as hell but they do have the RAW.

This timing is why Bone Swords still work against FNP. (Not sure about Force Weapons). Bone Swords have an interupt in thier rule. The model takes a wound and as soon as that happens you have to test to see if the ID effect happens (before FNP). If they fail they are dead. If they don't then they get FNP.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

I should feel awful for following the rules?
That's like me saying you should feel awful for using Force weapons against my Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.

No. Its more akin to me re-picking targets with deathmarks because I deploy them via deepstrike with a veil of darkness.

That one's a stretch.
There's no stretch with regards to FNP vs non-ID wounds.

Not a stretch at all. When I deploy them I pick a target. Since I am deploying them via deepstrike I get a new target. See how anonying exploiting words is?

I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Not a stretch at all. When I deploy them I pick a target. Since I am deploying them via deepstrike I get a new target. See how anonying exploiting words is?

No, it's really not annoying to me. It's fun - and it's why I spend most of my time in YMDC.

And what words are being exploited here? I'm not sure why you're so vehemently protesting that it's exploiting the rules to take FNP saves against Force weapons.

Because instead of insisting FNP can be taken against something that may or may not have the ID special rule, we have the option of altering when in the phase you make a roll. It would be a much simpler solve to the: yes you can,no you cant, debate. It may not be RAW, it may not be canon, but it is fair.

House rule or not, the RAW on this is kinda rediculous. Nurgle daemons no longer has anyting to fear from GK's/Psykers, as well as Sisters of Repentia, or anything else with FNP. It seems wrong that just because of a timing issue, something that dosent allow FNP suddenly does.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Because instead of insisting FNP can be taken against something that may or may not have the ID special rule, we have the option of altering when in the phase you make a roll. It would be a much simpler solve to the: yes you can,no you cant, debate. It may not be RAW, it may not be canon, but it is fair.

We have a way to solve it already. When two things must happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is decides the order. On my turn I take FNP rolls before the Force weapons.
And that's if you don't subscribe to the idea that FNP must come before all other "unsaved wound" abilities.

House rule or not, the RAW on this is kinda rediculous. Nurgle daemons no longer has anyting to fear from GK's/Psykers, as well as Sisters of Repentia, or anything else with FNP. It seems wrong that just because of a timing issue, something that dosent allow FNP suddenly does.

Yes because FNP is an instant save with no chance of failure.

So is a GK force weapon when you have a BB. You are right of course, but I dont belive its fair, and I wouldnt impliment it when I used FNP models. I would hope my opponent would extend the same curtosy

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
So is a GK force weapon when you have a BB. You are right of course, but I dont belive its fair, and I wouldnt impliment it when I used FNP models. I would hope my opponent would extend the same curtosy

I'm not sure what you're referring to with your first sentence.

And I don't believe it's fair when a Force weapon IDs my 200-300+ point MC. I would hope you extend that courtesy to me. See how silly that sounds?

Thats not using loopholes in rules wording. And the BB (Brotherhood banner) auto passes my psychic test to activate my force weapons. I am guaranteed to ID you.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Thats not using loopholes in rules wording. And the BB (Brotherhood banner) auto passes my psychic test to activate my force weapons. I am guaranteed to ID you.

After you cause an unsaved wound.

Yes. After I cause an unsaved wound. I have already stated you are right about this. I am also making it known that I dont belive it is fair or that it was intentional.

RAW you are right.

How I would play it? Never, no matter what side of the coin I'm on.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Yes. After I cause an unsaved wound. I have already stated you are right about this. I am also making it known that I dont belive it is fair or that it was intentional.

RAW you are right.

How I would play it? Never, no matter what side of the coin I'm on.

Right, and I'm trying to understand why you're saying that.
I don't understand why you don't think it's intentional. They intentionally made FNP treat wounds as saved.
They intentionally did not give certain weapons the ID rule - rather they have a way to cause Instant Death.
You are never absolutely guaranteed to ID me. If you miss with all your attacks, you won't ID. If you fail to wound with all your attacks, you won't ID. If you Hammerhand, you won't ID.

There's no twisting of words to exploit something or ignoring obvious intent.

There are plenty of attacks that are X2 toughness that could miss. Guaranteed to hit was never part of FNP. Something that has a capacity to cause ID like a force weapon should ignore FNP. If I fail to ID you then by all means, go back and roll your 5++. However, I belive something that dependably causes ID should not have FNP available to it. I do not belive it was GW intent to allow FNP to circumvent Force Weapons. I cant make it any simpler than that. If you dont understand it then I'm sorry, I can't help you.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

If Im understanding this correctly
Feel no pain is in fact not save but a USR that lets to attempt to ignore an unsaved wound, while force weapons after causing an unsaved may let you attempt to (auto or not) cause ID.

The question becomes then which comes first as it sounds like both occur directly after an unsaved wound.

Sounds to me that they both occur simultaneously and there for should be at the priority of the active player.

My 2 cents

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

This problem comes up all the time...when does 'immediately' happen? As in where are we told the timing of these rules?

Does 'immediatly' mean before moving to the next step or before anything else in the current step?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

True, but the Force rule is very clear that unless activated there is no Instant Death. Potentially causing Instant Death is not enough to deny FNP.

No it's like I said there are no caveats but you are trying to apply one.

So do we deny FNP to all force weapons?
To Force weapons that cannot be activated that turn?