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matt442 wrote:
Powerfists and Meltaguns also conditionally cause Instant Death. The condition being that their strength is double a models toughness. All weapons follow this. In truth your only argument is the timing of what comes first. Is instant death "On" before
you are allowed to take roll for Feel no Pain.

You have a condition built into the Bonesword and Force rules. there is no condition about Str double Tough.

Str 8 wounds Always cause ID on T4 models. (There is no condition that over-rides this).

Str 8 wounds Never cause ID on T5+ models (There is no condition that over-rides this).

The same is not true for Force weapons.

 Gloomfang wrote:


What we are disagreeing on is a fundimental question of game mechanics.

A model gets hit with a set of dual Bone Swords. It has to pass a leadership test on 3D6 or die.

You are saying that failing that check activates the ID power of the Bone Swords.

I am saying that passing that check prevents the ID power of the Bone Swords from killing the model.

That is essentially the same thing.

If test is passed no ID, if test is failed ID.

The wounds, by default, do not cause ID, unless the test is failed, which we do not know if the test is failed when the wound is suffered, so at that point they do not inflict ID. They can't or you would have no reason to take the test.

 DeathReaper wrote:
That is essentially the same thing.

If test is passed no ID, if test is failed ID.

The wounds, by default, do not cause ID, unless the test is failed, which we do not know if the test is failed when the wound is suffered, so at that point they do not inflict ID. They can't or you would have no reason to take the test.

And I reason the exact oposite. If they did not casue ID why would you need to save against it?

"must pass or x"

So I get hit with MSS. I have to make a save to not hit myself. If I pass I get to not hit myself. If I fail I hit myself.

If I pass you would still say I was hit with MSS. I just saved it, so it had no effect. Same thing with Terror. You get hit and make a Ld check to ignore.

To go further lets reduce the Ld value of every unit to zero.
Force weapon: Never activate. Never ID.
Bone Sword: Not applicable. LD has not bearing on results.
Unit hit with Bone Swords: Never pass. Always suffer ID.

Right now where I am we require a Ld check on the first wound from a model with a bone sword before FNP. But that is a "house rule".

Does the rulebook not say that double 1's always win a LD check?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Does the rulebook not say that double 1's always win a LD check?

Insane courage is for morale checks only I thought. Pg3 would say that you can not even make the test.

Just ask my broodlord about Assail.

It's Leadership tests.

The wounds, by default, do not cause ID. You must fail a LD check for the wound to cause ID (for Boneswords).

Basically the question is: Does an Unsaved wound from a Bonesword, or force weapon inflict ID?

The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

The answer is known 'immediately' (as per both Force and Boneswords) after the wound is dealt, prior to FNP which is not dealt with 'immediately'.

As I read it.

I see no requirement for the ID to be determined prior to the wound for FnP to interact.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The wounds, by default, do not cause ID. You must fail a LD check for the wound to cause ID (for Boneswords).

Basically the question is: Does an Unsaved wound from a Bonesword, or force weapon inflict ID?

The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

Lets take a slightly diffrent tactic.

The answer of "We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules." is correct.

However permissive rule set only gives you permission to take FNP against those wounds that do NOT cause ID. You have no permission to take FNP against those that MIGHT casue ID. Until you go thrugh the process you do not have permission to take FNP.

 kirsanth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

The answer is known 'immediately' (as per both Force and Boneswords) after the wound is dealt, prior to FNP which is not dealt with 'immediately'.

As I read it.

I see no requirement for the ID to be determined prior to the wound for FnP to interact.

Again with this 'timing' claim. Where are we told 'immediatly' happens befoer anything else in the step?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The wounds, by default, do not cause ID. You must fail a LD check for the wound to cause ID (for Boneswords).

Basically the question is: Does an Unsaved wound from a Bonesword, or force weapon inflict ID?

The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

Lets take a slightly diffrent tactic.

The answer of "We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules." is correct.

However permissive rule set only gives you permission to take FNP against those wounds that do NOT cause ID. You have no permission to take FNP against those that MIGHT casue ID. Until you go thrugh the process you do not have permission to take FNP.

Incorrect we are given permission to take a FNP roll versus any wound that does not inflict ID. We do not know if the wound will infict ID until the required condition is checked.

 hisdudeness wrote:

Again with this 'timing' claim. Where are we told 'immediatly' happens befoer anything else in the step?

English.
The actual word lets you know nothing happens prior.

And I claim that immediately means any time before moving to the next step in the process. Prove me wrong.

 hisdudeness wrote:
And I claim the immediately means any time before moving to the next step in the process. Prove me wrong.

You covered that part already.

Seriously... The timing debate has been had over and over and isn't the way to steer this argument. Seek out older threads if you really want to.

Yes, even 5th edition threads as they had the same wording as far as timing.

 kirsanth wrote:

 hisdudeness wrote:
And I claim the immediately means any time before moving to the next step in the process. Prove me wrong.

You covered that part already.

So why are you/others bring up the 'timing' argument? It will get this thread nowhere.

The timing is related to the rest of what I meant.

"I see no requirement for the ID to be determined prior to the wound for FnP to interact."

The fact that the can occur in a different order does not prevent anything from making the wound cause ID, preventing FnP from working.

The timing IS important - whether 'immediately' matters or not, but it ('immediately') is also the only indicator of timing in the rules to further delineate 'after'.

editing to add:
You are instructed to determine whether the wound causes ID 'immediately' after suffering the wound.
FnP is determined after suffering a wound.
If you determine FnP prior to determining ID, you are not determining ID 'immediately', breaking a rule.
If you determine ID prior to determining FnP, you are still determining FnP after suffering a wound, breaking no rule.

Timing does not matter, we can not take a FNP roll until we know what type of wound will be inflicted. So Bonesword/Force Weapons effects need to be resolved.

In these cases FNP is conditional on the outcome of those abilities.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Timing does not matter, we can not take a FNP roll until we know what type of wound will be inflicted.

The mind boggles.

And if you have 2 'immedate' effects and one goes before the other you break the rules. Except, we don't because there are no rules for 'immdeate'

Force Weapons can only activate when they have inflicted an unsaved wound, if FNP passes then you HAVE NOT inflicted an unsaved wound. Simple as that.

Unsaved wound means that you went through ALL your saves and could not save it, why would we disregard a save and immediately move on to the "unsaved wound" state?

You are mis-reading what I am writing, hisdudeness.

Also, FnP triggers on an unsaved wound*, as a special rule, not a save.

 kirsanth wrote:
You are mis-reading what I am writing, hisdudeness.

Also, FnP triggers on an unsaved wound*, as a special rule, not a save.

Just looked it up, you are correct. In fact, Feel No Pain even specifies that it is NOT a saving throw. After careful consideration, I would like to change my vote.

Besides if I make my FNP special, your potentially ID wound never took place.

Go GO gadget FNP

It's not a save but you must count the wound as being saved if it passes.

I have never once claimed FNP is a save, infact if it were the only models that could use the rule are those that have no save in the first place.

The answer to the OP question is 'no', you do not get a FNP roll before the activation of the Force Weapon. This is due to the fact that the status of the un-saved wound (inflicts ID or not) is in flux.

I think there might be yet a different view here.... Force weapons never have instant death. When the weapon is activated the wounds now cause instant death. There is a difference. The timing issue is still there but you can't argue that Force weapons ever even have Instant Death USR. The question really should have been stated as was but the FAQ didn't affect it in the least and should not have even been mentioned. I think I would have to say that the player who's turn it is gets to decide order.

Gravmyr wrote:
I think there might be yet a different view here.... Force weapons never have instant death. When the weapon is activated the wounds now cause instant death. There is a difference. The timing issue is still there but you can't argue that Force weapons ever even have Instant Death USR. The question really should have been stated as was but the FAQ didn't affect it in the least and should not have even been mentioned. I think I would have to say that the player who's turn it is gets to decide order.

The weapon does not need ID. The only requirement is that the Wound inflict ID. It does not matter what allows the Wound to cause ID.

USR -FNP- p. 35
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)." This sentence negates the argument that FNP is a 'save' that would need to be failed before instant death took effect.

USR -Force- p. 37
" if the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule." The combination of 'all unsaved wounds' and 'that turn' removes timing issues as to what happens first. There is no timing involved. Since all wounds that turn generate the instant death effect (including the one that allows the test for activation) there would be no 'special feel no pain roll'.

If you can show that unsaved wounds caused in an assault where a force weapon has been activated are not part of all wounds and do not take place that turn I'd be happy to change my stance.

Just my opinion

The problem is the timing.

Pro-FNP claim that the wound is not unsaved until all possible chances to make it a saved wound have been used. This is my personal belief, but that is partly rooted in 5th ed.
Pro-ID claim that since the test is done immediately, it must be done after any allowed saves, but before anything else.

There is no timing!

You cannot make a FNP roll until you know if it is allowed, i.e. if the wound will inflict ID. Thus we must complete the additional effects and determine the result. Then we can apply FNP if it is allowed.

I'm not understanding what is so hard to understand about this.

Take your wound pool and make saves, Any un-saved wounds can now have conditional effects rolled for and applied. If conditions are meet for FNP, make the roll. Otherwise assign wounds to models.

Anyother way breaks a rule.

USR -FNP- p. 35
"On a 5+, the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved." The FNP rule itself has the wording that defeats the whole timing argument. It has to be an unsaved wound for FNP to take effect.

There is still no timing issue. All unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have ID. Do you have to suffer an unsaved wound to use the FNP USR? Yes. Can you use FNP against an activated force weapon wound inflicted in that combat? No.