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 hisdudeness wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

This problem comes up all the time...when does 'immediately' happen? As in where are we told the timing of these rules?

Does 'immediatly' mean before moving to the next step or before anything else in the current step?

Lets say you take an unsaved wound, then you take FNP. Did the force weapon rule happen immediately? No it didn't, we waited for FNP so the rule for force weapon has been broken.

Just my thoughts on it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

Right,weapons with ID negate FNP.

Does a force weapon, that has not been activated, have the ID rule?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

Something that has a capacity to cause ID like a force weapon should ignore FNP.

Force weapons only actually cause ID if the wielder has used a warp charge point and passed the test.

Otherwise they are just weapons with an AP value.

Okay, I'll rephrase, If a force weapon has a warp charge and the player promises real nice to use it to activate the FW then you should give them the benefit of the doubt.

Seriously?

Also it shouldnt be a problem to go back and re-do the FNP test if the FW is not passed.

Seriously.

Force only has the ID rule when activated.

When not activated you can take FNP.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Okay, I'll rephrase, If a force weapon has a warp charge and the player promises real nice to use it to activate the FW then you should give them the benefit of the doubt.

But why?
Just because? You just think it should be that way?
That's all I'm getting from you. And that's a horrible way to have any kind of balance discussion.

I was more referring to the fact that you made me spell it out like I was a 6 year old.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Seriously.

Force only has the ID rule when activated.

When not activated you can take FNP.

You are playing word games... doesn't make your argument any more valid.

Thats all this entire argument is based on. Word games has made up their entire argument. The only problem is that their word games is more valid than any reasoning we can make. Again, they are right. We dont have to like it, and it dosent have to be fair. God knows GW has screwed its own rules before.

I do not think THEY are right.

I wish they werent, but since there is no "Definate" way to cause ID with a FW before they get FNP they win. Because the FW dosent cause ID 100% of the time, they win. Its a stupid numbers game and we dont have the numbers.

OK. I have just spent WAY more time then I should reading and re-reading the Bone sword rules. My take on it now is this:

1) Bone Swords always casue ID. They do not require an activation. They are always on (unlike Force Weapons).
2) To avoid the effect of ID the model that takes the wound needs to pass a LD check on either 2D6 or 3D6.

So FNP does not work against Bone Swords as they always casue ID. They just have a save to avoid being killed.

I guess that is the big diffrence between Force Weapons and Bone Swords. With Force Weapons you have to roll to activate the ID (The model using the weapon rolls). With Bone Swords you have to roll to save against the ID (the model being hit has to roll).

All that matters is whether the weapon has the rule or not. There are no caveats... so yes it applies to bone swords as well.

Boneswords do not cause ID all the time. (Only on a failed LD test do they cause ID).

Force weapons do not cause ID all the time. (Only after spending a warp charge point and passing a Psychic test do they cause ID).

Edit in response to Dozer Blades: Force weapons do not have the ID rule when not activated, but they have the ID rule when activated. So the Force rule has a caveat within itself. (Same with Boneswords).

The FAQ does say they have to have it all the time - just that they have it. You are reading way too much into it in my opinion.

But that is just it. They do not have the ID rule.

The weapon only has the rule after a Psychic test is passed. until then, the weapon does not have the rule.

Therefore Force weapons do not have the ID rule, unless activated.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Boneswords do not cause ID all the time. (Only on a failed LD test do they cause ID).

I hit you with a bone sword. Do you die? Only if you fail your LD check. Why are you making the test? TO AVOID THE ID EFFECT.

If I do not have to activate it, it is on.
Do you have to activate a powerfist? No.
If you are T4 and get hit with a powerfist do you die? Well if you have an Invun you have to check to see if you save it. If you fail the check you suffer ID.

So by your argument models with Invuln saves get to roll FNP against powerfists becasue the Invuln save keeps it from having the ID rule.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Boneswords do not cause ID all the time. (Only on a failed LD test do they cause ID).

I hit you with a bone sword. Do you die? Only if you fail your LD check. Why are you making the test? TO AVOID THE ID EFFECT.

Boneswords do not have the ID rule, unless the LD test is failed, then they have the ID rule.

 Gloomfang wrote:

If I do not have to activate it, it is on.
Do you have to activate a powerfist? No.
If you are T4 and get hit with a powerfist do you die? Well if you have an Invun you have to check to see if you save it. If you fail the check you suffer ID.

So by your argument models with Invuln saves get to roll FNP against powerfists becasue the Invuln save keeps it from having the ID rule.

Not at all. Any Str double Tough will always cause ID. if the Invuln is failed.

Boneswords conditionally cause ID.

Force conditionally causes ID.

If the conditions are met, then they cause ID, otherwise they do not.

See the difference?

Perhaps I'm missing something, but my understanding is that FNP is not a saving throw, it's a special rule that allows the model to ignore a wound it has suffered. Force weapons are activated once an unsaved wound is inflicted. So as soon as the target fails its invulnerable save (if it has one), the model with a force weapon makes a psychic test. If the the psychic test is passed, the model does not roll for FNP, as the wound/weapon inflicts ID; if the test is failed, then the target does benefit from FNP.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Boneswords do not cause ID all the time. (Only on a failed LD test do they cause ID).

I hit you with a bone sword. Do you die? Only if you fail your LD check. Why are you making the test? TO AVOID THE ID EFFECT.

Boneswords do not have the ID rule, unless the LD test is failed, then they have the ID rule.

 Gloomfang wrote:

If I do not have to activate it, it is on.
Do you have to activate a powerfist? No.
If you are T4 and get hit with a powerfist do you die? Well if you have an Invun you have to check to see if you save it. If you fail the check you suffer ID.

So by your argument models with Invuln saves get to roll FNP against powerfists becasue the Invuln save keeps it from having the ID rule.

Not at all. Any Str double Tough will always cause ID. if the Invuln is failed.

Boneswords conditionally cause ID.

Force conditionally causes ID.

If the conditions are met, then they cause ID, otherwise they do not.

See the difference?

Powerfists and Meltaguns also conditionally cause Instant Death. The condition being that their strength is double a models toughness. All weapons follow this. In truth your only argument is the timing of what comes first. Is instant death "On" before you are allowed to take roll for Feel no Pain.

RatLord wrote:

 hisdudeness wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

This problem comes up all the time...when does 'immediately' happen? As in where are we told the timing of these rules?

Does 'immediatly' mean before moving to the next step or before anything else in the current step?

Lets say you take an unsaved wound, then you take FNP. Did the force weapon rule happen immediately? No it didn't, we waited for FNP so the rule for force weapon has been broken.

Just my thoughts on it.

First point, again show us where the timing of ‘immediately’ is spelled out in the rules. I can just as easily say that it means “before moving to the next step” and be just as correct as “before all other actions in the current step”. Seriously, we’ve hashed this out in so many threads to the point it is not a valid argument.

Second point, read the FNP rules. Does it say the weapon has to cause ID or does the Wound have to cause ID? I’m pretty sure it says the Wound needs to cause ID (Hint: it does). A weapon that has a condition to it inflicting ID wounds and fails to meet that condition does not produce a wound that causes ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Boneswords conditionally cause ID.

Force conditionally causes ID.

If the conditions are met, then they cause ID, otherwise they do not.

See the difference?

I see the diffrence, but you are seeing a diffrent diffrence.

We are agreeing on Force Weapons. They do not casue ID until they are activated. Thier ID is conditional on being activated.

What we are disagreeing on is a fundimental question of game mechanics.

A model gets hit with a set of dual Bone Swords. It has to pass a leadership test on 3D6 or die.

You are saying that failing that check activates the ID power of the Bone Swords.

I am saying that passing that check prevents the ID power of the Bone Swords from killing the model.

I can not think of any wargear or weapons that give an ability to an opponents weapon in the manner you are discribing. I can think of a lot that require a save like I am discussing. If you can think of any please let me know.

Offhand I'm thinking of the Eldar wraithguard, on a to wound roll of a 6 They cause ID IIRC.

However Force Weapons, and Bone Swords do not cause ID, they may cause ID. That being said RAW wise I'd be allowed to take my FNP.

If a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a arp charge and taking a psychic test. IF THEIR TEST IS FAILED, OR THE BEARER HAS NO WARP CHARGE POINTS TO SPEND, THEN THERE IS NO ADDITIONAL EFFECT. page 37 brb.

If the test is passed all unsaved wounds inflicted by a force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule.

The key word here is unsaved wounds... UNSAVED...
Saves would have to be tried and failed, in order to be unsaved, which would then allow the force weapon to be activated and used on them. SO though it pains me top say this Drunkspleen is probably right. GRRR

Boneswords and force weapons are a poor analogue as one you have to pass an LD check to survive and the other your opponent has to pass and LD check to destroy you.

I think the spirit of the rules could be seen to be broken but this is not a RAI forum, it's RAW and most of us agree on the RAW position.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Boneswords conditionally cause ID.

Force conditionally causes ID.

If the conditions are met, then they cause ID, otherwise they do not.

See the difference?

I see the diffrence, but you are seeing a diffrent diffrence.

We are agreeing on Force Weapons. They do not casue ID until they are activated. Thier ID is conditional on being activated.

What we are disagreeing on is a fundimental question of game mechanics.

A model gets hit with a set of dual Bone Swords. It has to pass a leadership test on 3D6 or die.

You are saying that failing that check activates the ID power of the Bone Swords.

I am saying that passing that check prevents the ID power of the Bone Swords from killing the model.

I can not think of any wargear or weapons that give an ability to an opponents weapon in the manner you are discribing. I can think of a lot that require a save like I am discussing. If you can think of any please let me know.

What are you basing this bonesword idea on? I'm not seeing anything that comes close to support this claim.

 hisdudeness wrote:

What are you basing this bonesword idea on? I'm not seeing anything that comes close to support this claim.

Tyrnid Codex.
"In addition, if a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a Leadership test or suffer ID"

It is not pass to activate. It is pass to live.

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

I see "pass LD or suffer ID". Which is a condition to the wound inflicting ID...just like force weapons.

I see no place where we are told that Boneswords have the ID rule, only a place where we are told that wounds inflicted by the bonesword inflict ID wounds on a failed LD test.

I would see your point (but still say you were incorrect) if the bonesword rules gave the equiped model ID that was negated with a successful LD test. It doesn't matter if the model/weapon has the ID rule if the ID rule can be removed from the wound.

yes on an UNSAVED wound. So saves have been tried and failed thats where the fnp kicks in and then the bonesword or force kicks in.

easy peasy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OH snap

FNP BONE SWORDS AND FORCE ALL activate after an unsaved wound. Which goes first.? That should be the real argument. Assaulting players choice?

Controlling player's choice I'd say.

The rulebook has a paragraph on this very situation which is something like player turn decides who gets to choose when you have an issue along the lines of multiple rules or powers activating at the same time.