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Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

From p35... Note that FNP rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death..

If a wound is unsaved and is inflicted via a Nemesis force weapon at a higher initiative step then definitely unsaved wounds at lower steps can't roll for FNP. I think it also applies before any activation since the FAQ simply states FNP doesn't work versus weapons that inflict Instant Death.

Would a model with FNP get to roll for it prior to activation of a force weapon that inflicted the wound?

Dunno, but the same question applies to boneswords, in a way.
Would love to see what those with better grasp on the RAW say.

For simultaneous effects I think the player whose turn it is decides which is applied first...'player priority' is what I remember but no book on hand.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think it also applies before any activation since the FAQ simply states FNP doesn't work versus weapons that inflict Instant Death.

Which is irrelevant, because before activation, Nemesis Force Weapons definitely are not "weapons that have the Instant Death special rule", and in fact, you could argue they aren't weapons that have the instant death special rule after activating them, they are just weapons that happen to be inflicting wounds that cause Instant Death.

All of which amounts to the fact that, the FAQ hasn't changed anything, you will still be able to attempt FNP until they are activated, and whether FNP or the Activation Roll comes first will still be determined by the player whose turn it currently is.

It has the "Instant Death" rule. It just has a qualifier. As it has the "Instant Death" rule you can not use FNP against said weapon even if it fails to activate it.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
It has the "Instant Death" rule. It just has a qualifier. As it has the "Instant Death" rule you can not use FNP against said weapon even if it fails to activate it.

Not true. You cannot point to a rules entry for a Force weapon or Bonesword that has the ID special rule.

RAW congrats, you just got around force weapons. RAI, do you guys really think they wanted FNP to circumvent one form of ID but not another? Come on guys.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
RAW congrats, you just got around force weapons. RAI, do you guys really think they wanted FNP to circumvent one form of ID but not another? Come on guys.

I think they wanted FNP to circumvent weapons that can at some times inflict Instant Death but are not at the current time inflicting Instant Death, yes.

The rule itself already says this. The contention is weapons that sometimes do. As the question is answered in an FAQ, I think it means as long as the weapon has the rule you can't use FNP.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The rule itself already says this. The contention is weapons that sometimes do. As the question is answered in an FAQ, I think it means as long as the weapon has the rule you can't use FNP.

But Force does not have the ID rule.

Unless Activated.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The rule itself already says this. The contention is weapons that sometimes do. As the question is answered in an FAQ, I think it means as long as the weapon has the rule you can't use FNP.

yes, but those weapons don't have the Instant Death rule. I would say they don't have it at all by RAW, but even ignoring that stance, they DEFINITELY don't have it before activating.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
It has the "Instant Death" rule. It just has a qualifier. As it has the "Instant Death" rule you can not use FNP against said weapon even if it fails to activate it.

^ This.

Thank you. It is quite simple really.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
It has the "Instant Death" rule. It just has a qualifier. As it has the "Instant Death" rule you can not use FNP against said weapon even if it fails to activate it.

^ This.

Thank you. It is quite simple really.

Then it will be no problem for you to show us where in the weapons profile it says it has the Instant Death rule, please do go ahead and show us.

Check the rules for Force in the rule book. I forget the page number... Sorry.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Check the rules for Force in the rule book. I forget the page number... Sorry.

Right, the ones that say "If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect." clearly indicating that there are situations where the Force rule does NOT equate to having the Instant Death rule?

C:GK -"if the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death."

It then goes on to state that if there are different initiative steps that each step is bound by the initial test for activation, which for our argument is irrelevant.

Per the wording 'that phase' the instant death effect would retroactively apply to the initial wound and negate the ability to take the FNP roll, regardless of simultaneous initiative.

Also, if the halberd didnt do the job the sword or one of the hammers in the unit would.

Psilence wrote:
Per the wording 'that phase' the instant death effect would retroactively apply to the initial wound and negate the ability to take the FNP roll, regardless of simultaneous initiative.

Except that no allowance is made to go back and change prior results in the NFW rules, and if FNP is made it's treated as though the wound never existed so there's no issue with this idea of retroactive problems, you just don't handle anything retroactively unless the rules tell you to.

I don't follow you. The NFW has the ID rule... It's simple.

This thread is just silly. Of course a foce weapon has the ID special rule. It always has the ID special rule, even if that rule fails some time. There are weapons that require you to take a toughness test or something of the like every time you take an unsaved wound or suffer instant death. Would you say that they too dont ignore FNP? Is it the timeing of the ID roll that is hanging you up? If so, I can play fair and roll my NFW activation at the beginning of the assault phase. This really isint all that difficult to understand.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
This thread is just silly. Of course a foce weapon has the ID special rule. It always has the ID special rule, even if that rule fails some time. There are weapons that require you to take a toughness test or something of the like every time you take an unsaved wound or suffer instant death. Would you say that they too dont ignore FNP? Is it the timeing of the ID roll that is hanging you up? If so, I can play fair and roll my NFW activation at the beginning of the assault phase. This really isint all that difficult to understand.

No, it doesn't have the ID rule. Show me the stat line with the ID rule please.
And you cannot "play fair" and roll activation at any time other than when you're allowed - that's called cheating.

Check the entry entitled Force in the special rues section... All force weapons have the ID special rule.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Check the entry entitled Force in the special rues section... All force weapons have the ID special rule.

ONLY when activated. The rest of the time they defiantly don't.
Potentially having Instant Death doesn't cut it deny FNP.

So essentially we are saying that anything that requires a test at the end of the phase cannot deny FNP?

I hope you guys enjoy getting beat down by TO's. Even though there is no RAW ground here, this argument is nothing but rediculous cheesing. Great job guys. You just un-nerfed FNP. Why dont we just give everyone Reanimation protocols while we are at it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Check the entry entitled Force in the special rues section... All force weapons have the ID special rule.

I don't think I agree with this. I think the right way to state this is that, "All Force Weapons have the Force USR. The Force USR has access to the Instant Death special rule, but does not automatically make use of it." The only time this access is granted is when the Force USR is successfully activated. If for some reason that activation does not occur then the Instant Death rule is never realized. Hence, FNP is possible.

The Force USR specifically changes the nature of the unsaved wounds inflicted to cause Instant Death, thus negating FNP. Again, that only happens though if you are successful in activating it (Force).

-Yad

Kossaro Khan doesn't have ID unless he rolls a 6 to hit(iirc). This does not mean that all of his hits deny FNP just that his qualified ID attacks cause it.

An attack only inflicts ID if it has S double the toughness of the model or it has the ID rule. Force weapons don't have the rule until the weapon is activated. So no retroactive application but for the rest of the GK squad they have an active force weapon which does cause ID.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
So essentially we are saying that anything that requires a test at the end of the phase cannot deny FNP?

I hope you guys enjoy getting beat down by TO's. Even though there is no RAW ground here, this argument is nothing but rediculous cheesing. Great job guys. You just un-nerfed FNP. Why dont we just give everyone Reanimation protocols while we are at it.

A force weapon needs to wound you, if you don't get wounded why should you get to move forward along the process towards ID?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
So essentially we are saying that anything that requires a test at the end of the phase cannot deny FNP?

I hope you guys enjoy getting beat down by TO's. Even though there is no RAW ground here, this argument is nothing but rediculous cheesing. Great job guys. You just un-nerfed FNP. Why dont we just give everyone Reanimation protocols while we are at it.

You act like this is a new thing.
And no, no TO has beaten me down yet. Sorry to burst your bubble, but not everyone agrees with you and since your stance has "no RAW ground" here...

I dont know about you but my GK's with brotherhood banner will ALWAYS be inflicting ID if I have the warp charge available to them. Short of you turning off their force weapons themselves you will not be stopping the ID factor. The fact that you are going to use FNP to get around something that takes away FNP would not be permitted at any tournament I ran, nor at my gaming store.

When does the force weapon activate?
Have the wounds and saves process been completed for the models that strikes first in your GK squad?

If the weapon is not causing ID when it wounds then why should FNP not be applied?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I dont know about you but my GK's with brotherhood banner will ALWAYS be inflicting ID if I have the warp charge available to them. Short of you turning off their force weapons themselves you will not be stopping the ID factor. The fact that you are going to use FNP to get around something that takes away FNP would not be permitted at any tournament I ran, nor at my gaming store.

And you're free to house rule whatever you want. If you don't cause an unsaved wound, you can't ID. FNP causes a wound to be saved.
If you don't see the potential for that interaction then I'm sorry - but it's there.


Oh, and if I Precision Shot that banner out of there you can have fun rolling.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I dont know about you but my GK's with brotherhood banner will ALWAYS be inflicting ID if I have the warp charge available to them. Short of you turning off their force weapons themselves you will not be stopping the ID factor. The fact that you are going to use FNP to get around something that takes away FNP would not be permitted at any tournament I ran, nor at my gaming store.

Ok, so for those (and subsequent) wounds that are caused after you activate the Force USR you are then inflicting Instant Death. Prior to that activation, there is no Instant Death. It simply doesn't exist. If that's not the understanding you are working under then I'd be curious to know what your reasoning is behind it.

It's entirely reasonable to have a scenario where, in a unit equipped with Force Weapons, one model has an unwieldy Force Weapon and is the only one to successfully activate Force. In that scenario, only the unsaved wound(s) he caused would be changed to cause Instant Death. Any unsaved wounds previously inflicted do not have the Instant Death rule.

-Yad